KatrinaM

http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/rspca-a-fringe-group-in-live-exports-debate-says-nationals-mp-mark-coulton/story-e6frfku0-1226115825105 A FEDERAL Nationals MP has taken aim at the RSPCA over its handling of the cattle debate, accusing it of losing respect and becoming fringe animal activist group. Mark Coulton said the reputation of the animal welfare organisation had diminished due to its involvement in the debate over live cattle exports. "It is a great disappointment to me that the RSPCA, with their alliance with Animals Australia, have gone from one of the great doyens of Australia, one of the great organisations that was beyond reproach, to have become a fringe animal activist group," he said today. Mr Coulton said he was insulted by a campaign against him by the two animal welfare groups. The MP has been critical of the government's decision to ban live exports to Indonesia following a public outcry over television footage showing the ill-treatment of cattle before slaughter. The ban has since been lifted, subject to conditions. Mr Coulton says he has been the subject of a "nasty" email campaign that he claims originated from the two organisations' websites. He says as someone who cares for animals, he takes it as a personal affront. "The RSPCA has certainly fallen a long way from the great organisation that they used to be." Read more: http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/rspca-a-fringe-group-in-live-exports-debate-says-nationals-mp-mark-coulton/story-e6frfku0-1226115825105#ixzz1VAuomZxZ

Most councils I know have a dead animal pit for this purpose.

when a large dog attacks a small child will the owner be allowed to feign outrage, get a spot on aca, have somebody else foot the bill and have the declaration overturned?

What about the good homes they go to? What about the good breeders that sell pups overseas? Since when is a flight internationaly any more stressful than a domestic flight? Parts of Asia are closer to Northern Australia than the Southern States? Does that mean we shouldnt send any more pups to Darwin or Cairns too? And since when did AQIS let unmicrochipped pups be exported? Poor animal welfare sucks, but why do the RSPCA need to twist the truth or out right lie in these articles?

Lots of Staffys get "stolen" everywhere. Many of them are just clever enough or lonely enough to get out and end up somewhere else. Especially when there were thunderstorms about, I used to see heaps of it when I was dog washing, you would see the same dog missing from one client turn up at a new home, the new people whould think the dog was obviously bashed in its old home as it cowered for the first few days or was scared of the vaccuum or something and think they were doing the right thing by keeping him.

http://www.valleycountry.com.au/catalogue/dog_pet/for_the_dog/dog_boots

What about leather ones? There used to be RM Williams ones and some saddlers used to make them too.

To me the word stock means good things - brood stock, breeding stock, blood stock, live stock, of good stock. I was thinking today that to some people who arent really used to hearing it in a postive light describing quaility breeding stock it proabably brings to mind stuff on a shelf, ie stock take, stock clearance, overstocked (and all these puppies imported direct from the manufacturer must be sold at never to be repeated low low prices!) My husband is a farmer and comes from a family of farmers, his dog experiance was limited to the family dog they had as kids. When we were first together I took him to meet a friend of mine who also bred dogs. In conversation he called her a puppy farmer. Everything went quiet and the room bacame a little icy. In his world good farmers work hard to make whatever they breed or grow the absolute best they can, her dogs obviously produced pups and as he had heard it somewhere before thought it was a lovely compliment about the way she kept her dogs and the fat shiny pups she had. Lucky when it was all explained she saw the funny side of it.

Why?

Sandra777, do you have a lot of experiance with these crosses that scare the hell out of you or is it just what you think they may be like?

I'm not sure what you mean. Terriers were designed to kill animals which are now kept as pets which could very well see an unprovoked attack, hounds were designed to hunt animals, again leaving them with the ability to lead to an unprovoked attack, Mastiffs were designed to defend their families, again something that could lead to an unprovoked attack, etc etc. With this line there would be few dogs not banned. On the other hand if you mean that breeds are encouraged to be outright dog and human aggressive then I am not comfortable with dogs being bred for this but I dont know of a breed standard that calls for a dog to be agressive to humans. (But I am certainly not familiar with every breed standard either)

Doesnt this man breed pure bred horses? How can he draw the conclusion that pure bred breeders are so satan like when they breed dogs but not other species???

Am away from the house today and trying to write from my phone byt will write a proper response to you tonight Woofnhoof, trust me I don't know of anybody who want trade to resume without changes to make sure animals aren't abused. Both sides of th debate are spending way too much time preaching to the converted and little time constructively debating their points of view and solutions, both sides are left feeling that the other doesn't have any idea how to fix things.

I have been busy and have been really upset by some of the comments on this and the other thread. I did think it was just that people were ignorant and rude but I think its just that they are uniformed and lack an understanding or any experience. Just so people know Australian Cattle are still being killed in Indo and will be up until Christmas time. The ban has only stopped cattle travelling over there. For cattle to meet the criteria to be sent over they are under 350kg. These are not big $1000 bullocks but what are called "store" cattle - cattle that need fattening up before they are suitable to kill. They are transported to holding yards where they are feed the same ration they are fed on the ship until they are loaded. Once loaded on the boats they spend 3 or so days on board and are unloaded at the port. From there they are transported to feedlots in regional areas and fed for up to six months. These feedlots supply jobs for tens of thousands on poor Indonesian rural workers. They stay in the feedlot for about six months before they are killed. As far as I understand in the smaller works (like the ones featured) each seller has their own crew of slaughtermen, who go in, kill the amount of beef they will sell and then a new crew takes over. Depending on where the destination of the meat is depends on how they are processed after they are slaughtered. Beef destined for the wet markets is sold hours after it is killed. It is transported direct from the abattoir to the market to be sold that day. Housewives and business would buy the meat to be cooked that day, the same as was done everywhere else before refridgeration. One of the major reasons the northern meatworks who used to process cattle from these areas closed down was due to lack of workers – the work is seasonal, during the wet season the supply of cattle is unreliable and people had to live in regional areas, so while live export has taken jobs away from Australia they were jobs that nobody wanted anyway. The cost of transport and length of time travelled is a big reason why cattle aren’t taken south to some of the meatworks whose workers feel they should go there. It would cost around $250 - $400 each beast to transport them that far. They would then have to spend a significant time either being grown out or put into a feedlot. The slaughterhouses featured on the footage four corners showed were small ones (except for 20 seconds that showed how things are done well in Indo) and are the exception rather than the rule. The majority of Indo meatworks kill at above world standards. As for the bits about producers knowing about the cruelty pictured - this must surely be a joke. We knew we wanted things improved there, thence the $5 levy and the investment in building their own feedlots and meatworks by companies.

Ummmm do you notice who the author of your report represents? I would hold this with the same weight as you would hold a pro live export one from Livecorp.

Northern producers have been pushing for years to process our cattle here rather than ship them overseas - not just from a welfare point of view but becasue it makes bussiness sense to value add. Sadly 6 months of bans takes most into the wet season meaning a good 10 or 12 months without income. Producers have been let down by everyone, so sad that so many cattle here will suffer now and so will so many families.

Amanda, here is an article to help you see how animal rights people view pet ownership in the same boat (unintended pun) as export cattle. http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/Weve-got-to-stop-treating-animals-like-animals/ After a maelstrom of mainstream media coverage and social media activism, the federal government has temporarily suspended the export of live cattle to Indonesia. The move follows the ABC’s documentary program Four Corners’ recent exposé of the live export trade in which shocking video footage obtained by Lyn White, director of Animals Australia, revealed cows being tortured to death in a slow and agonising manner. The distressing images, which depicted barbaric practices that included whipping the cattle, gouging their eyes and slashing their tendons, raised the ire of so many people across the country that Animals Australia’s website collapsed from the sheer volume of traffic on the night the program screened. Social media networks Facebook and Twitter quickly became campaign tools utilised by meat-eaters and vegans alike who united in protesting the horrendous cruelty inflicted on Australian cattle: within a week, more than 200,000 people had signed lobby group GetUp’s petition calling on the Prime Minister and Agriculture Minister Joe Ludwig to ban the export of live cattle to Indonesia and phase out the live export trade all together within three years, and independent MPs and the Greens introduced private members bills to ban all live exports to the country. On the face of it, the concerted action from the public across the nation, many of whom were justifiably outraged and traumatised by the unspeakably cruel acts inflicted on cattle in Indonesian slaughterhouses, is heartening – as is the Gillard government’s response. But – as laudable as a suspension of live cattle exports (whether temporary or permanent) to Indonesia, or any other country is – it does not addresses the real issue, which is a need for a radical shakeup of our thinking about our relationship to animals. Calls to ban the live export industry are all well and good, but they are rooted in a welfare approach that continues to sanction the commodification of animals’ bodies. This is clearly demonstrated by the alliance of animal protection organisations with the Australian Meat Industry Employers Union (AMIEU) in calling for a ban on live exports. The AMIEU is concerned with boosting jobs in local abattoirs and both Animals Australia and the RSPCA called on the federal government in a media statement to “assist [meat] producers in whatever way is necessary to get their animals to processors in Australia”. Even the newly formed Animal Justice Party concurs. But simply banning live export of cattle to Indonesia is not granting justice to animals. Only a major shift in our cultural assumptions about whether we have a right to use and exploit animals for food, fashion or entertainment will come anywhere close to doing that. We need to challenge the status quo in which animals are deemed to be nothing more than property and in which unique sentient beings with social needs and complex emotional lives are reduced to mere ‘units of production’. Instead we take the easy option of comforting ourselves with the idea that as long as we treat animals ‘nicely’ and kill them ‘humanely’ it’s acceptable to enslave them to service our own self-interests. Now, of course it’s ‘better’ that an animal dies a quick death rather than being slowly tortured before he or she dies. If someone were to decide to kill me, a quick gun shot to my head would be preferable to cutting me up slowly with a machete. But the best outcome would be for me not to be killed in the first place. The agonising ordeal of Australian cattle in Indonesia is in no way acceptable, ever; yet we kid ourselves if we think that all is well in our own backyard – as comedian Dave Hughes, who has worked in abbatoirs here, tweeted. Millions of animals suffer horrendously in intensive or factory farm systems – from battery hens crammed into tiny cages whose beaks are sliced off and legs broken; pigs confined in concrete gestation crates where they can barely suckle their young; to cows kept perpetually pregnant and lactating whose calves are forcibly removed to provide milk and dairy products for human consumption – all of whom eventually end up with the same terrified look in their eyes as they are shackled upside down to await slaughter on the kill floors of abbatoirs right here in Australia. To treat another living creature with such disdain that slow torture is considered acceptable, as in the case of Indonesia, is a sign of moral bankruptcy. Yet so too is sanctioning the mass slaughter of animals in Australia every day simply to satisfy our tastebuds. The live export trade should not be seen in isolation, but rather as a symptom of unjust structural systems based on cruelty, oppression and inequality that benefit none of us in the long run – especially the animals. We can – and must – do better. Katrina Fox is a freelance writer specialising in gender politics; sex, gender and sexuality diversity; and animal rights. She is the editor-in-chief of The Scavenger, a not-for-profit online magazine

Nobody has used religon as an excuse for cruelty, as I said before they are different issues that are being confused. Cattle producers did know that not all Indo meatworks were up to a standard we expect and they give money from every single beast they send over to go towards improving conditions. Conditions have improved in the larger places and in the majority of places. Tell me what these alternitives are Amanda, I'm pretty keen to know as I am sure are thousands of other people who a total ban will ruin. Do you not know the agenda or Animals Australia and PETA? Do you not understand what animal rights means? It means and end to mans use of animals and that includes pet ownership and it sure is on their agenda. There are far more animals treated cruely in the name of pet ownership than Indo cattle yet you wouldnt support a ban on pet ownership. I'm sure a pretty nasty documenty could be made using the same formula. I'm sure you treat animals very well as the majority of Indo meatworks but neither of these things are news worthy. What sells and raises donations is emotion, outrage and horror. I wasnt having a personal dig at your family, unlike the one you had at mine and my friends, its just not my style. Watching a documentry and looking at the Animals Australia website is hardly unbiased reasearch. My kids are younger than your son and are exposed to the actual slaughter of our meat and the culling of feral animals and injured stock, we talk about ethics and how we treat animals and why it is nessecary to give meat livestock a "good life" or swiftly end the life of pest animals and the injured or diseased. They watch animal rights films as well. It is these things that I hope will give them a well rounded idea of all the viewpoints on the subject. I would like to think that anybody doing reasearch on any subject that was emotive would do so by excluding emotion and looking at all sides of the arguement. The equiptment that was supplied works well in the meatworks where it is used properly, and much better than the previous method. Are there going to be better methods in the future? I hope so. Should those facilities identified be stopped until they pick up their game? I dont think you will find any arguement from producers there, but why should the facilities who are doing things right not use Australian cattle? Argentina is a lot longer away and transport costs are higher but their cattle are cheaper. It wouldnt be very cool to have FMD on our doorstep because of a knee jerk reaction that saw cattle sourced from there.

Religion DOES play a part in how the animals are slaughtered, that is the whole point! Its pretty sad that you dont care about Australian farmers and the huge impact this will have on farming families and all the associated industries. I am not sure if you are saying you support animal rights or animal welfare, the two are very different things. Strong emotion is a funny thing, it lets people overlook the facts which is exactly why Animals Austrlia and other animal rights groups use it so often. I only hope there are some Australian farmers still left to help campaign against them when the focus shifts to a ban on pet ownership. If your son wants to develop a social concience you could do worse than to teach him to find out facts for himself and make a descision on these, not negitive emotions rather than rely on persuasive media or information from websites of those with a vested bias.

I think there is some confusion of the three issues raised - plain and simple animal cruelty, halal slaughter and tradition. Eye gouging, blunt knives, breaking tails and legs, beating the poor buggers - this is animal cruelty, plain and simple. No religion thinks this is cool. These things are anti Islam. Halal slaughter is confronting for those whose meat comes wrapped in plastic. The method is similar to the method we use on sheep however the size of the animal and its ability to be restrained make a big differance to it efficancy. By tradition I mean the reluctance to change for reasons that defy comprehension. The "we have always done things this way, it works for us so why should we change now" mentaility. It is hard to convince people that they should adopt better methods which are kinder to the animals when humans outside the door live in third world conditions. There is nothing in there that is crap Shazzapug. Bullbreedlover, what do you suggest happens to the breeding stock, embryo calves and calves from semen that dont make it as breeding stock or are cast for age? Desexed and placed in pet homes? Or do we not owe them the same accountability as animals exported for meat. Indoneasia has said they dont care where their cattle come from and Australia isnt the only country that has cattle. Dont we owe it to all cattle that will be slaughtered there in the future to keep improving the conditions or if they werent born here they dont matter? It defies my belief that people are so easily swayed by media. In the same way that all Cavs dont have syringomyelia (we have all seen PDE) not all Indonesian meatworks are like the cruel and rough ones we saw on the Animals Australia show. I cant believe that a group of dog people, who know the agenda of Animals Australia and PETA would still fall for it, especially after how unfairly dog breeders felt they were portrayed in PDE.

Their own cattle arent comparable in size, weight and temperament, hence the earlier problems. Why?????? What about embryos and semen??? What about animals that will be used to improve the genetics of livestock in third world countries? Our genetics have improved milk production in tropical countries and wool production in others. If it werent for other countries letting us import cattle, embryos and semen I wouldnt have my cattle today. It would be a shame to throw the baby out with the bathwater. What about dogs? Cats? Should we ban the export of pedigree dogs to some parts of Asia because there is no absolute guarentee they wont end up in the pot and we find the eating of dogs unacceptable? Where does it end. I would like to see Australian inspectors in every meatworks that processes cattle sourced from Australia, further training and better auditing. I would like to see stun guns introduced into all meatworks that process Australian cattle and their use ensured on every single beast by inspectors. I would like to see the fellas who work the yards in the meatworks trained in better practice as well. Those places where they were filmed beating, kicking, hamstringing and eye gouging cattle to be banned from recieving Australian cattle until they can show how they plan to change or be restricted indefinatly. I would like to see the actual lads that did it charged (however I dont think this last wish is a reality.)

pipsmum, how are they going to "perfect their slaughter method" if they don’t have any cattle to kill? There has been a great deal of success in Indonesia so far. There is no certainty cattle sold into Indonesia will be tortured. The 60 odd places that kill cattle well were not featured. The larger places that kill for supermarkets and use stun guns weren’t featured. When breeding or selling anything there is no guarantee of where it will end up, be it dog, steer or refrigerator. Just as Pedigree Dogs Exposed pointed the finger at the minority of breeders doing the wrong thing this has pointed the finger at the minority of Indo meatworks who are doing the wrong thing. So many people have come out with "we have to ban this" with no thought of the consequences for the people or animals and offering no real practical solution.

Sorry stormie, it does. Traditionally cattle were killed by tying them down, facing them towards Meca and slitting their throat, which is pretty rough when you see it done. The welfare of the animal is not always a consideration. Thats the way they have always done things so why should they change? We are trying to change the way livestock who have been purchased from us are handled in another country, one where people arent exactly treated that flash. Its a bit of an ask to think its going to happen overnight. There is diagreement between clerics as to whether the use of stun guns will still allow the meat to be Halal. If it does cause instantanious death then the meat becomes haraam and their lies the problem. Sholahudin al-Ayubi is not lying - gouging eyes, broken legs and blunt knives are wrong in anybodies culture, and I am certainly not defending that. There is no excuse for these things to happen, in Indonesia or anywhere else in the world. If people really cared about cattle and how they are handled why wouldnt you want to change the way cattle are treated across the board? It is silly and unworkable to have one set of rules for Austrlian cattle and another for all the rest.

I surely have seen the footage. Things have improved dramaticly in a great deal of their facilities. Some have improved a little bit and for them there is a long way to go before they are acceptable. Just because two people can film the same thing doesnt make it a widespread practice. Again was there a great deal of time devoted to the 60 odd places that have really picked up their game since Australia began exporting there and could be considered best practice? What about the 11 that currently use stun guns? These improvements have been made due to meat and livestocks involvement. Should we ban exports and walk away from Indonesia and let them torture somebody elses cattle or should we work together with them on implementing more humane methods for all livestock? Cattle deserve better but religion and tradition are difficult to change.

Pipsmum, how do you know there has been little improvement? Have you been involved in the beef industry in Indonesia since 1993? It could be argued, (in say, a persuasive video documentary made by an animal rights group highlighting worst practice) that dog ownership should be banned as there are plenty of people who beat, kick, abuse, neglect etc dogs in Australia, even after 140 odd years of the RSPCA. And this abuse is not even done in the name of religion. I like cattle nearly as much as dogs, it’s horrible that more respect isn’t shown to them and something needs to be done. The beef industry has been working towards a solution trying to convince all Indonesian meatworks they should stun before they kill. Try convincing Catholics that birth control is alright or Jews that it’s OK to eat bacon. It isn’t easy to change religious views nor traditions. It’s a big ask to expect somebody to treat a dog exactly as you want it after you have sold it, it is a little bit trickier with a meat animal in a foreign country. It isn’t simply a matter of killing the cattle in Australia. There are no suitable facilities or staff at the moment to do such here, the road system in Indo is crap and they have little to no refrigeration. If it were that easy we would have been value adding a long time ago. If we stop exporting cattle to Indonesia today what will feed millions of Indonesian people, who will financially support all the people involved in the industry from pastoral workers here to the meatworks over there who are doing the right thing? What will happen to the cattle industry when there is no market for these steers? Do people want to take on each to live in their backyard or should we just shoot them in the paddock?