Simply Grand

Yes, that's true, lots of Kelpies and working type BCs. We didn't usually say they were pure though, even if they looked it because who really knows. It probably wasn't an intentional dig at breeders, just advertising people saying they need to use an eye catching dog to get people's attention. i've spoken to plenty of people though, both at work and outside it, who say things like "oh we like X breed or had X breed before but thought we should rescue a dog instead" so even if its not a clear cut 'it's because of pure bred breeders that dogs are in shelters' I think there's a perception that if you go to a breeder you are not helping the issue of dogs in shelters. Whereas I think of it as coming at the same issue from the other end, as in if everyone got a predictable dog that suited their circumstances from a responsible breeder there would be far fewer dogs in shelters. OT to my own topic, but he is a gorgeous dog!

Here's the ad I'm annoyed by it as both a pure bred Australian Shepherd owner and a former RSPCA shelter worker. I know I'm preaching to the converted but dogs like that very very rarely end up at RSPCA. It isn't fair to use a pure bred dog, either intentionally or unintentionally fueling the perception that pure bred breeders cause the problem of dogs in shelters and it isn't fair to the vast majority of gorgeous mutts that do fill shelters to imply that people can go in and find a dog like that. And yes, I will send my comment to RSPCA Australia.

Great, best of luck moving forward. I don't really think you are damned if you do, damned if you don't, it takes a while for some to get the gist of this forum, it ain't a love fest, but if you wish to stick around you will still get plenty of useful discussion. We all still love to hear about the journey from brand new puppy to much treasured member of the family so you are welcome to share if you wish. If you would like the thread closed send a message to user Troy (the owner/admin of DOL) and ask him to lock the thread.

Perfume, I feel a bit like you've talked around in a circle now as you've said that the breeder you started the thread about is happy for you to take a puppy following further discussion but you have a new concern so aren't sure whether to go ahead. That's between you and that particular breeder but why continue to labour the point about initially feeling interrogated?

Don't worry, Harper will guard you from them :) unless she's busy sleeping of course...

Thanks all for the earlier comments. Just bumping in case any of the trainers are around... It seems to be working, they are certainly relaxed wearing the collars and are happy to come over to have them put on. I have been paring that with food treats from the beginning. They will still give an alert bark or two if they have heard or seen something unusual but don't generally bark with the collars on. Riley has figured out he can whine and it won't go off but he's only doing that sometimes when I've just come home and he's excited to see me. I'm hoping it isn't loud enough to wake the neighbours. There have been a few instances of the dogs hearing a noise or Saxon barking while the collars are off (before I've put them on when we get up) and they have stayed quiet for that whereas I think they would have barked then previously.

You mean a Tigger joey :p

But just because that's how you feel it doesn't mean that someone who likes several breeds and could take on any of them won't be just as good an owner. ETA if I wasn't limited in numbers there are heaps of breeds I'd like to have! That's exactly my point. A breed I would 'like' to own as opposed to a breed I definitely love and want in my life. I like a number of breeds but I don't love them. I feel like someone can love and definitely want in their life more than one breed at a time though. If for some reason I lost all three of my current dogs and was looking for a new singular dog I would have a tough time deciding between a Rotty and an Aussie Shepherd. Love both, definitely want both and if I could only have one the decision may come down to finding a breeder and timing match. Totally understand that you feel differently and that's fine, but again I don't think that indicates that either of us wouldn't make a good owner.

This is the part I don't get. That someone is happy to take a pup of one of any three breeds. I fall in love with a breed and no other breed could possibly be substituted for the breed I want. I loved Rottweilers and owned and rescued them. When I felt I was too old to be running around the obedience oval with large dogs (I am small of slight build) I then went with Cavalier King Charles Spaniels. A breed I had fallen in love with many years ago. I have two elderly dogs of this beautiful breed. But just because that's how you feel it doesn't mean that someone who likes several breeds and could take on any of them won't be just as good an owner. ETA if I wasn't limited in numbers there are heaps of breeds I'd like to have!

Actually, one thing I personally think all of us advocates of responsibly bred, pure bred dogs (including but not limited to breeders) SHOULD do is make some effort to make information about the option of having pure bred dogs and how to go about getting them as accessible as possible to the general public. I don't mean we owe it to inexperienced pet buyers to convince them to buy a pure bred or that breeders shouldn't be selective about who their pups go to but I think we have a moral obligation to the "cause" if you will of purebred dogs to make an effort to provide people with information. If we are going to say the pedigree, responsibly, pure bred dogs we so advocate are the best option, make negative judgements about people who obtain pets through other means and in any way expect to make OUR dogs the norm for people wanting a non-rescue pet, rather than bybs or farmers, then we can't say it's not my responsibility to make information available and accurate on websites or direct prospective buyers to certain channels or answer their annoying questions, or explain why additional information might be asked for or suggest a different option if they haven't found the right match yet.

I think its fairly apparent there isnt one right way for either breeders or buyers to approach this. Its about going with what you are comfortable with and finding a match in the other party. People have different expectations, different priorities, different communication styles, different ideas about what makes a good home for a dog. You have to think about what things are important to you and then search for that match. The more requirements a buyer has in the dog they want or the more requirements a breeder has in the homes their dogs go to the longer it is likely to take to find that match. And thats fine, but both parties have to accept that. Theres no point getting frustrated if you have more specific requirements than some others may have and it takes you longer to find them as well as that relationship/philosophy match. I was lucky with the first dog I got. I didnt know what I was doing, just that I wanted a certain breed (a cross) in a certain colour. The breeder I found welcomed me into her home, I met the parents and the litter, saw that the dogs lived in the house as part of the family, the pups were being raised in the living room, saw the dogs and pups interact with adults and children in the home and was given information and invited to call anytime if I needed advice. I didnt know going into it that those things were important to me. Had I turned up and found a different set up or been told I couldnt see where the pups were raised at all would I have still gone ahead? I suspect not, but I dont know. I didnt know what the options were at the time. This was a BYB breeding un-health tested crosses. By the second and third dog seeing for myself how the breeders dogs lived and the pups were raised was still very, very important to me but registered pedigree purebred and health testing were added to the mix. For the second I didnt have any requirements for gender or colour, so it was just a matter of finding that breeder/buyer match. For the third I did have a requirement for gender and strong preference for colour but the other things remained just as important so I was prepared to search and wait as long as it took to find the whole package (ironically I found it straight away and ended up with the pup 3 weeks later :p ) For the next one, as my knowledge has grown my requirements have changed again. I will now have very specific requirements for the dog as far as temperament and with that the breeders approach to breeding for temperament and ability to pick it in pups, and very possibly gender. All the other things re the breeder, how their dogs and pups are raised etc are still very important also but Im not set on actually seeing that stuff for myself as I now have access to people whose advice I would trust on those things. So I think its pointless to debate should breeders do this, should buyers do this in black and white terms because it depends so much on the individuals involved.

Yep, that's exactly how I've done it with Quinn out in public. On the lead, 'stay down' cue and high reward rate at first for staying sitting or 4 on the floor while being patted. Then 'good girl' and move away before she gets too excited and loses it. With time and practice I gradually reduced the reward rate, started working without the lead, increased the duration (of interaction with the person), distraction (looking at the person instead of me, person bent over her instead of standing up, more exciting pats and cuddles) and distance (from me when I give the cue) and she is now getting close to being reliable at not jumping even when I'm at a distance when I tell her 'stay down', and even without the cue unless she's got lots of energy to get out. As I said, I don't have that many people over so I haven't bothered with it too much at home although it would be very do-able using the same method. With the couple of people I mentioned that she does get free access to we have been practicing on them giving her the cue themselves.

Bahahahaha! the facelift pic

I love it when one dog starts a hole for no apparent reason and then all their friends are like "what's in that hole, I'd better dig too" then the first one's like "hey they're interested in my hole, I'd better go back to it and dig furiously as well" :laugh: And then they end up with a massive pointless hole and lots of self satisfaction :D

Quinn looooooves people and would love to jump all over everyone and stick her tongue in their mouths. I've done a lot of training with her out and about re. not doing it and we have consistent expectations and cues at home because I'm the only human but when people come over she goes outside and/or on lead until she has calmed down so I can physically prevent her from jumping on them. There are only a couple of people who don't mind her boisterousness AND can keep calm and cue her when she is jumping that she gets free access to. There's just no way my slightly scared of dogs mum could deal with her no matter what I asked her to do so it comes down to management rather than training. Having said that, I don't have a whole lot of visitors at my house so it's not that big an issue for me :laugh: ETA - if she doesn't calm down she stays outside or at least on lead with me holding onto her. Oh, and not to alarm you, but she's 3 Don't worry though, she's a particularly full on with people dog, and because not that many people come over she doesn't get to practice calm behaviour with visitors very often, I'm sure Ernie can learn.

Aww, Cricket that's so cute. We would use the stand on the lead method to teach boisterous shelter dogs to be calm around people. Often these dogs would have spent a lot of time alone in the back yard with the only interaction with their people being to do "active" things like walk, play, be fed etc so they never learnt to be calm and self-settle when people are around. Because any training cues, rewards or corrections you give are attention in themselves you defeat the purpose of what you're trying to teach them by using those whereas by standing on the lead and ignoring them you leave it up to them to realise that their best option is being calm (the desired behaviour). I'm fairly sure this technique is actually using negative reinforcement - so the unpleasant consequence of the lead being tight and jerking them if they are jumping around or pulling is removed when they are calm. I agree with you that the video is teaching a different thing to a wait until released, it's for unexpected stimulating situations where not complying with a cue will be self-rewarding for the dog. This method gives a clear physical cue (standing on the lead) and doesn't allow the dog to disregard the cue for a self-reward. ETA - it isn't the only way you could teach it though. As many of you have done, you can train a well rehearsed, well proofed stay or wait using positive reinforcement that would do the same thing but for dogs that find human attention highly rewarding that would be hard work!

That's fantastic. Such a simple thing but it will be so beneficial to the patients. ETA - I think it would be super helpful in mental health wards too for patients to be able see their own pets.

I'd heard of the show but hadn't watch it before, I've been watching season 2 on iview all evening, it's great :) I'm up to ep 6 so the next one is the greyhound one I think. ETA Oh that was so cute! Senna Greyhound is adorable :)

No, he was playing hide and seek and waiting for you to find him!

I saw this the other day, it's really cute :) Excerpt: "We love our dogs. In the 30,000 years humans and dogs have lived together, man's best friend has only become a more popular and beloved pet. Today, dogs are a fixture in almost 50% of American households. From the way dogs thump their tails, invade our laps and steal our pillows, it certainly seems like they love us back. But since dogs can't tell us what's going on inside their furry heads, can we ever be sure? Actually, yes. Thanks to recent developments in brain imaging technology, we're starting to get a better picture of the happenings inside the canine cranium. That's right — scientists are actually studying the brains of dogs. And what the studies show is welcome news for all dog owners: Not only do dogs seem to love us back, they actually see us as their family. It turns out that dogs rely on humans more than they do their own kind for affection, protection and everything in between." This part is interesting too: "Behavior research supports the recent neuroscience too. According to Andics, dogs interact with their human caregivers in the same way babies do their parents. When dogs are scared or worried, they run to their owners, just as distressed toddlers make a beeline for their parents. This is in stark contrast to other domesticated animals: Petrified cats, as well as horses, will run away. Dogs are also the only non-primate animal to look people in the eyes. This is something Andics, along with other researchers, discovered about a decade ago when he studied the domestication of wolves, which he thought would share that trait. They endeavored to raise wolves like dogs. This is a unique behavior between dogs and humans — dogs seek out eye contact from people, but not their biological dog parents. "Bonding with owners is much more important for dogs than other pets," said Andics."

Totally not boring, love the pics. I saw the cutest thing yesterday arvo at the park, I was in the small dog side with my three and in the normal side there were a couple of others I didn't know well. Quinn had a good flirting session with a Malamute boy through the dividing fence, lots of sniffing, licking and running along together but I didn't know them and Quinn has JUST finished her season so I didn't want to risk them all in together. The Mal boy so wanted to play with someone though Then a regular Husky girl arrived, she's always looking for a playmate but hasn't found a perfect match yet...But the Mal boy greeted her and she went into crazy cute play jump around mode and they chased each other and played for ages! It was totally adorable, they were soooo happy :D

Oh that sounds positive ESCS :) Hopefully once you have some help with training, management etc you'll be able to have them stop with a verbal command if anything starts rather than having to physically intervene and get hurt on the process Don.

Go Hobbes! Can't wait to hear about the 18 year old Pittie in 3 years time :)

Maybel, I'd recommend setting up a routine for settling down inside too, as others have said there are fewer distractions and things to bark at in a confined inside area than outside. Agree about cool, hard floors, wet towels and possibly a fan being a good option to keep pup cool. Mrs RB, maybel won't be able to see my OT thread as she doesn't yet have enough posts but also, please don't cross post from OT to General, I deliberately put the thread in one place not the other.

Oh Don, I don't think you need to be thinking about PTS! As you say, you just need someone to help you understand what's going on and give you a plan to take control of it. My three take some management to all live happily together, Saxon and Quinn have an ongoing power struggle and sometimes have arguments (neither is aggressive to the level Lucy is, its just noise, and they both participate although I'm sure Saxon would back down if pushed) and both will sometimes gang up to pick on Riley who will just roll over so I have to keep on top of being the one who controls the resources, including play time, and tells all of them when they need to stop or stay away from each other or just take it down a notch. It's fine once you understand what's happening and get in the habit of being ready to intervene and most of the time they are fine together :)