Erny

Triple post. sorry ....

Double post.

As per Sydoney ..... I am opposed to ear twitching for the very reasons she mentions. I have nose twitched on a couple of occasions and for a horse that needed dental attention. I needed the additional control to avoid another dizzying smack in my head with the mouth gag. Didn't like using the nose twitch, although its use achieved what we needed at the time. Managed to wean off from its use over a few visits and this was from doing small amounts of work on his teeth and giving him frequent breaks (reducing duration and frequency as we worked), before he became impatient with it all. Whether one should be used in the OP's case is another matter. I would be quite reluctant but I think this decision should be one made in consultation with the trainer, who would know the horse, where I don't. But my hesitation is that the twitch would be applied even before the horse exhibited its unwanted behaviour.

Are you asking : "take it to obedience school/schutzhund training" ? Or are you asking : "adopt the pup for the purpose of obedience/schutzhund training"? If the former - Yes I would. But I would build up to it. Mostly positive socialisation experiences and hardly any training (just basic things and making it fun). Depending on pup's reactions, I might initially simply stay on the quiet outskirts rather than join in with the actual classes. If the latter - can't answer. I'd need to see the pup for myself. Would prefer to have had the pup at an earlier age for bonding as well as carefully structured socialisation and basics of training, but that doesn't rule out the possibilities of it being able to become a great dog for the purpose in mind.

This is the "extinction burst" that comes with extinction training (ie where we ignore them in response to their behaviour because we know that is exactly NOT what they want us to do). When the dog excalates its attempts, take it as a sign the extinction training IS working. The most important part is that you ride it through all the way. Most times it's not the extinction training that fails, it's that we lose patience and/or can't stand the noise and so we give in before the extinction burst has peaked. And THAT teaches the dog the level of behaviour it now needs to exhibit to achieve its goal. ETA: What you have been doing sounds pretty close to right. But one question .... when your dog was barking and so you left the house without her and she then quietened down, what did you do?

I used to say to Kal ..... "It's ok. Thank you Kal. Enough." (The first number of words were more for my sake than hers ). If she didn't quit barking, I would then tell her "ENOUGH!" (firm/gruff voice, not yelling). If she still didn't quit, I would command a 'drop'. This took away her freedom and also makes it a bit more difficult to bark, so a further gruff "enough" was usually all it then took. When she quietened, I'd release her and praise. Of course, if she quietened after the first attempt, always a pat and a 'good girl'. She was normally pretty good with the word "enough" but sometimes things in the neighbourhood would be different and more intense, so there were those odd occasions ........................... Tip: Avoid raising your voice. ETA: I didn't praise her whilst she was barking. In her instance it was genuine alert barking. Calling the pack to a possible trespass. I figure me attending to that alert is all she needed. This is genetics at work and given that I had no probs with her already being willing to bark, didn't need to be further reinforced for it. I simply concentrated on her quitting the barking on the word "enough" and praised for that.

Good for you ...... and Andy. It's nice when we see our work paying off, hey. :cool:

Thanks Jeff but although I've had my fair share of 'problems' that I had to work through with a young colt (later gelded) I'm not sure that the things I did would be what a professional horse trainer would do. All I can say is that it worked for me. I've had little experience with horses that rear whilst being led. The colt I had tried this on as a 1 year old but it wasn't full-on. To maintain control (yes - the rearing bothered me) I used one of those 'stallion' in-hand bits. It gave me some extra control. I don't know if that's what actually fixed it or whether it was simply that it gave me the control to prevent it and my boy grew through that 'stage'. This same horse (which by this stage was gelded) did give me rearing probs in his early days after being 'broken in' for riding. Took some courage (his rears were very high) but eventually I managed to find the balance required to reach back with my arm (whilst he was in full rear) and give him a whack with the dressage whip. That's all it needed. The reason for his rearing was because he knew it had worked for him before. He was one of those horses that once you showed your confidence when pitted against his antics, he would quit (for good) and got on with things very nicely. Before I managed the above there was another time (long story so won't go into details) where he would get to a certain point on the road and decide not to go on. Using my legs too much only pushed him into a rear. Using my legs mildly would cause him to back up. Because the rearing really bothered me, I chose not to push him knowing he'd win (and I'd probably get hurt) so I turned him around and backed him in the direction I wanted to go. I'd turn him forward after a while but if he didn't more forward immediately, I turned him and continued to back. We did this for 4 kilometres. He never balked on me again after that and ended up very sensitive to backing - a mere slight shift of my body weight in the saddle was all it took. But this is all different - it's me in the saddle, not on the ground. I don't know the OP's horse and whether he is rearing AND striking (VERY dangerous) but if the OP would think it safe to do so I'd probably work the horse in a round yard on a lunge-line with a lunge whip. Warm him up on the lunge and at any time he went to rear I'd move him on, encouraging the forward movement with the lunge-whip. But similar as to dogs - very difficult to know what to advise without knowing/seeing the animal. Priority is safety of the human. Perhaps some professional help from a horse-person?

I think this (highlighted comment) is generally the case, Tony. On some occasions I think it is also a case of want to know but use the internet instead of getting out and going to dog school to learn it. Not always though - in some instances it's because people are told to "keep puppy in until vaccinations are completed" ...... but people want to start doing the right things in those very early but crucial first weeks. In some other cases I think it's an awareness of not knowing about dogs but being aware of that lack of knowledge and wanting/needing to be careful to do the right things. Kind of like those who were taught/told (donkeys years ago) to rub puppy's nose in its do-do's when it had a toilet accident inside (). It was quite a shock for some people to find out this is soooooo the wrong thing to do. So, when you realise that what you thought all this time was right is in fact wrong, what else is there out there that you think you know but isn't right? Also, with the laws regarding dogs and the incidents that are now reported and publicised, I think some people are particularly cautious. One problem still exists though - people want to know but when they realise they might need to change what they are used to doing or actually put in some (sometimes inconvenient) extra effort to overcome the problems, they don't follow through. I have met more than a few people who want the problem fixed and will happily take your time to know but when the answer doesn't suit will either continue to ask questions (in the hope of getting an answer they want to hear??) or simply continue to grouch about their dog. This is generalising of course. If MOST people were like that, I don't think I'd enjoy my job as I do. I find that most people are willing to put in the 'yakka' to reap the good results. Thankfully . And my 'bonus' is the buzz from that success. . Just my thoughts on it.

All the soft muzzles I know of would prevent the dog from drinking, when fitted properly. In fact, not only that, but they prevent the dog from panting. As panting is a dog's natural cooling system, leaving a soft muzzle on a dog for any lengthy time would be dangerous and possibly fatal to the dog. Is there a new style of soft muzzle that perhaps I am not aware of? If not, then I would seriously caution anyone against using a soft muzzle on a dog unless for very short durations (eg. max 10 minutes .... less to not at all in hot weather) AND ONLY when supervised. PS Polomum - Sounds to me that you are describing a cage muzzle ........ NOT a soft muzzle. Cage muzzles are generally made of wire/steel mesh, although there are some that are made of a plastic type. I am not overly familiar with the latter, but would hesitate to use them either for any length of time because I'm not convinced that air flow is sufficient for the dog over extended periods. ETA: Oh - and although cage muzzles do stop bite injuries, I promise you that they still hurt if a dog decides it wants to have a go. In working with dogs, I've come away with some mighty big and dark bruises from the cage muzzle crashing into my legs. Hate to think what it would or could do to a child's face. Better than a bite - sure. But don't wish for anyone to be lulled into a false sense of security.

Do you think it's that we've learnt too much, or more possibly that we've changed the way we view and treat dogs? Back in "grandfather's" days, the dog was often somewhat of a working dog (whether officially or not). There was much self-socialising because also back in those days, low density population in areas did not demand the laws to keep your dog in as they do now. I'm thinking that we find these days we NEED to learn where we didn't need to before. Because we treat and feel about dogs differently - or should I say perhaps more 'intensely' - we need to now be aware of how our treatment affects them and influences their behaviour. I also think today's society is (and of course I'm generalising) a lot 'softer' than it used to be. Perhaps because our living conditions are not as harsh and sometimes cruel and necessitating as they used to be. In that, I can't help thinking that we aren't 'naturally' as assertive or even sometimes as practical (as would demand of us) as we might have otherwise been back then. I don't think it was that "grandfather" knew ........ I think it was more that the natural ways of living and attitudes were perhaps more congenial to living in harmony with dogs than it might be now. Back then I think dogs were more "just dogs". By that I don't mean they weren't loved or cared for. I mean they were literally considered the lower ranking animal. Dogs know when you mean something and when you don't.

I think so too, Isiss. I know what you mean - but in the scenario of "wet ground" I still expect the dogs I work with to complete the drop. No excuses there and I train for it. One day I might need to rely on my dog's reliability in obedience - no matter wet or dry ground. Apart from feeling like a 'heel' when I unknowingly made Kal complete her drop on the prickle weed (and I wouldn't go out of my way to do things like that on purpose) I was so proud of her. She didn't like it (obviously) because it would have been considerably uncomfortable if not a tad painful, yet she still complied, albeit that I needed to add the verbal correction. When I have a dog under my control - one known for a good level of training in drop, I am now a bit suspicious when/if the drop command is reluctantly/partly observed. I try now to check the ground a little more thoroughly beforehand. I've once or twice stopped someone else in class who were unknowingly about to command a drop when their dog was standing over a prickle weed. But not drop because the ground is wet? No ..... I WANT that to happen. I might NEED it to happen one day. However - ONE of the important components of dog training is that the handler enjoys it so that the dog enjoys it. In this, I'm pleased you have found what you want. Happy training.

Going a bit off topic I realise ...... but I did this with my girl (since departed ..... miss her heaps still) who was also well versed in "drop" and very reliable. She too wouldn't complete the "drop" command and gave me a *look* and appeared to "cower" (of sorts) when I verbally corrected her. She completed the drop though. But what a heel I felt when I released and rewarded her only to find that there was one of those prickle weeds right underneath her belly where I'd made her drop. :D Boy, did I feel guilty. I should have trusted her more to know better. Sorry Kal.

I'd teach the dog off-lead heeling and I'd have the children on-lead. No ..... only joking. On busy roads I'd teach the dog loose-lead walking even in the presence of chickens and still have the children on-lead.

Wow! By the sounds of it, we have one growing in our midst!!! And her name starts with "Rom" .

I spoke with Kelpie-i today. The answer is "yes", lessons to continue herding training are available. She'll be at her computer as soon as she can arrange to answer in more detail. Basically I think it is simply a matter of contacting her through Four Paws (refer her web-site link at the foot of her posts) to organise a time/day.

And there is the Rotty Club (which allows other breeds) which runs Wednesday nights at the KCC.

Jesomil ..... I don't think Kelpie-i will mind me posting on her behalf, just so you know she's not ignoring you. She's 'away' for a day or so. I know she'll come in and answer your query more definately and with more detail when she is able. In the interim I will take the liberty to say that I am quite certain that 'follow-up' lessons are catered for those who wish to continue to persue herding and that Kelpie-i will be able to arrange these for you or for anyone else who are interested.

Hi Lowchenlove ..... you are referring to the "second fear impact period" but that's not until later (approx 8-14 months of age - can be earlier and later depending on the breed of dog and the individual dog within the breed .... ie around the time of sexual maturity). In this case the pup is just on the cusp (if not past) its "critical period" .... the period of time when 'permanent brain development' is completing. This pup needs socialisation and desensitisation and the OP needs to receive instruction on how to do it correctly so as to not make a situation worse than it is. It is all about LOTS and LOTS of FREQUENT exposure but at non-traumatic distances (but at the same time, at a distance that the pup is aware that - in this case, kids - are around). And every experience when kids are in proximation must be a positive one for the pup .... work to make him WANT to have kids around - have him see kids as a 'bonus'. PS .... Lowchenlove - it doesn't worry me (and hey, my name IS mis-leading ) but feel that I would be lying by omission if I didn't tell you that I am a "she".

Sorry - just cleared them.

I don't know what you mean by this? If she's not off-lead, how could she not "come"? DEFINATELY don't allow her off lead beyond the safe confines of your backyard and home until and unless you have achieved a reliable recall. I have worked with a dog who was a quick as lightening and the owner's concern was that for all her care, the dog might slip past her children when they (who weren't so careful) opened to go through the front door. They too live very close to a very busy main road and she had lost a previous dog who was actually at the time under the care of a dog sitter in this way. So she was especially nervous of it occurring again. It took a few home attendance lessons and the owner was fantastic in her practice a following the training regime. It is not a guarantee that it will never happen, so one still needs to exercise care, but the owner is thrilled with the results.

If you don't already, make SURE that you have these two apart by way of secure barrier. Don't take ANY risks. In fact, don't allow her near or around any children. At all. Wise move. And I am/would be surprised that any obedience school would allow a known aggressive dog to partake in off-lead exercises. Engage the services of a behaviourist qualified and experienced in matters of aggression. And quickly. This is not something you want to muck around with nor take advice on over the net. Too dangerous and advice which doesn't match to your individual dog could do more harm than good.

Stormie - it's scary thinking of the worst, even though we might need to be prepared for it. But keep as positive as you can (I am hoping it's an eye-sight thing too) and simply take each moment and day as it comes and whatever it brings you. I (along with many of the DOLers here, I'm sure) will be thinking of you tomorrow and wishing you and your precious goldy girl all the best. Hoping the verdict is not too bad. Fingers crossed.

Assuming that you're right about the "heat" being the problem ....... rather than worrying about how to separate them, I'd be inclined to plan for prevention of the fights. As to what to do if an 'accident' occurs - there are so many ways and much depends on what you're capable of doing and when. One thing to be mindful of though - if you pull one dog away from the other when their teeth are latched on, you are likely to cause a worse injury through tearing of the skin. Naturally, you need to look after yourself too. It is not infrequent for a human to cop a serious bite when they involve themselves in dogs fighting. There have been many threads on "what can I do" when dogs are fighting ..... using the DOL search engine for key words such as "separating fights" or other variations should find countless results.

As to what you do ..... much depends on "why" the vocalisation is occurring. Anxiety at being left alone? Or attention seeking?