Kelpie-i

EVERYONE loves a waving dog

Yes thanks GayleK....I should have said "some" not all. Ray Coppinger's theory is that most of the dogs used to create the breeds of today were originally early village dogs, 'proto dogs' as he called them.

Well said Steve. Having worked with and trained many of these dogs, I am yet to see a bad one...temperament wise! They are very much a lovely natured dog and exceptionally easy to train. I do hope they succeed in becoming a recognised breed. After all, isn't that how all the pure breeds of today started out

I'm not sure I'm understanding the point of your posts too MB? Do YOU even know? Are you a frustrated dog owner due to experience with a 'bad trainer'? Or perhaps because you've just completed the NDTF course and you saw so many differing techniques and was given conflicting information that it may have confused you somewhat? Perhaps you feel torn between techniques...your belief is telling you "no food in training" but your learning of classical conditioning and learning theory is telling you otherwise. Food shoud NOT used to divert attention, it is used to mark/capture appropriate responses from the dog. It also can be used to reinforce a new set of behaviours used to replace the current reactivity responses. How do you deal with dog aggressive dogs MB? Dogs who do not take treats usually have elevated stress levels. If a dog does not take food in training, you can bet your bottom dollar that dog will look as though he is watching 20 televisions at the same time, heavily panting, lip licking and/or sniffing the ground. This dog is stressed and most certainly not in a calm trainable state. Sure you can compel the dog to sit or drop, but there is no learning occurring, or rather that the dog learns to comply in order to avoid a correction. This dog is also prone to constant breaking of positions and focus work is but a dream to the owner. BTW, I am NOT a positive only trainer in case you're wondering Regardless of which level in obedience your dog may be, you will always be adding new criterion to an existing skill. In which case you must approach the training as though the dog were back in the early teaching phase....so yes, treats as reinforcement in the higher levels CAN and should continue to be used. Also, do you go to work each day for a simple pat on the back each day?? I doubt it..therefore wouldn't either a food reward or a great game of tug be something the dog would be looking forward to. Pats are good but how many times a day do you think the average dog owner pats their dog for nothing? Which trainer actually said this MB? We achieve Classical conditioning when training regularly. Teaching a conditioned name response is a a good example. It is all extremely valid to what we know and use today....and it will always be open to interpretation to some degree as is the way with humans....but the teachings are there although we have come to understanding learning theory much better these days I believe. Because:1. Many dog owners do not employ the services of dog trainers, or they wait until their dog's behaviour has escalated to an uncontrollable level 2. SOME of those who DO employ the services do not bother with the advice or training program given to them, preferring instead to take the easy way out by either rehoming the dog or dosing it up on calming drugs to mask the problem 3. Some trainers are not experienced enough to deal with the dog's problem and unfortunately won't admit to it, therefore continuing to give incorrect advice and techniques that actually worsen the behaviour rather than fixing it 4. If the method does not show an immediate result some owners give up quickly on it 5. Some owners will "trainer hop", going from trainer to trainer to trainer, never applying a single method in it's entirety and never giving a method the chance to actually work. I think those trainers who have been around since God was a boy will concur with the above So along comes Muddybear who is going to change the world of dog training as we know it... :D ETA You didn't ask questions MB, you merely slammed us trainers and tainted us all with the same brush.

What Corvus said plus take into account that what you believe now/today will differ from then/tomorrow. As your knowledge and experience grows, so does your preference.

Hmmmm....something's stinky!

Same here Cosmolo and my question is the same too

never mind...

Good post Cosmolo. Are we talking methods for teaching general obedience ie sit, drops, come and lead walking...or are we talking about methods used for behaviour modification?? The approach one trainer has to teaching a drop or recall may be somewhat, in some cases VERY, different to when modifying unwanted behaviour such as jumping and the more serious stuff like resource guarding. I think this is where some 'arguments' are born in that there may be a marked difference in the approach to each of the above. Also, one trainer argues his/her techniques based on a simple teaching of obedience skills, whilst the other trainer (engaged in the same argument) is envisaging a large family dog that had just knocked over the 3 year old child due to it's out of control jumping. Make sense??!!

The difficulty with Cesar's techniques as I see them is that people focus on WHAT he does and tend to ignore the following: * He is very experienced dog trainer, particularly with challenging dogs. * He sees the dogs he deals with in the flesh and evaluates their behaviour. * What he does is based on his knowledge, experience and observation. * He's prepared to take a bite to get the job done. Now lets remove all that knowledge, all that experience and all that observation and have Jo Public emulate his methods. If Fido delivers a decent bite to a family member using Cesar's methods, the dog will probably be on a one way trip to the vet. Most of Cesar's critics never doubt the effectiveness of what he does. Its when others try the same methods that they see problems arising. I agree with them. He stresses the importance of exercise and training. Frankly if more of the folk tempted to use his methods followed THAT advice, they'd probably never need to up the ante at all. Certainly not disagreeing with you PF..infact this has always been the common agreeance with Cesar and his methods... but the fact that the title of this thread includes his name, TO ME lends the notion that along with BB, the OP's intentions were to seek comments of discreditation for both parties from others on this forum. That may not have been the intention but that's what came across and because I am completely over the Cesar Bashing thing.

Why do you think it wouldn't work...or why would you question it?? Just because you don't agree/like Cesar and his techniques, doesn't mean some of them won't help stop unwanted behaviours.

Extinction training doesn't always work because behaviour can be reinforced by someone else and/or takes too long to achieve in the case of a large dog jumping up on a small child. I didn't say that it was always viable (although it does always work, it's just not always possible). I was responding to the assertion that "purely positive" was a misnomer because it necessarily includes negative punishment. The story goes that withholding a reinforcer is punishment, but this is incorrect (and probably irrelevant anyway). What I meant was that it's not always practical, can take far too long to achieve and the unwanted behaviour can quite easily return. I do like extinction training, but not for stopping behaviours that have the potential for harm/hurt or injury to any party. So what are we saying here, if a harmful behaviour like a big dog jumping up on a small child you could bring out the prong and give the dog a couple of good corrections, but if the dog was jumping up on a large adult causing no immediate harm or risk, you would use extinction training???. Kristov, it means exactly what it reads. The method a trainer decides to use should be based on many different factors of the situation... ie.,.capabilities of the owner, probability of inadvertent re-reinforcement of the unwanted behaviour, potential harm which can be caused by the behaviour, is the behaviour learned, instinctual or genetic based? The list goes on and on. No clear cut answers and no "one method fits all" approach. That was the point of my post.

Extinction training doesn't always work because behaviour can be reinforced by someone else and/or takes too long to achieve in the case of a large dog jumping up on a small child. I didn't say that it was always viable (although it does always work, it's just not always possible). I was responding to the assertion that "purely positive" was a misnomer because it necessarily includes negative punishment. The story goes that withholding a reinforcer is punishment, but this is incorrect (and probably irrelevant anyway). What I meant was that it's not always practical, can take far too long to achieve and the unwanted behaviour can quite easily return. I do like extinction training, but not for stopping behaviours that have the potential for harm/hurt or injury to any party.

Extinction training doesn't always work because behaviour can be reinforced by someone else and/or takes too long to achieve in the case of a large dog jumping up on a small child.

mutt lover, I definitely don't meant to alarm you, but my beautiful GSD boy died last January 2010 after a bout of seizures. He was 16 years old. He suffered a grand mal seizure initially that lasted about 5 mins then a heap of smaller ones during the day as we waited for the vet to come. Unfortunately we lost him that day. I didn't opt for autopsy at the time, but I wish I did. The vet told me it might have been a brain tumour or brain disease (?). I'll never know. Apart from the usual arthritis, he was fine....all tests were normal, so I can only go by what the vet told me. If you have the inclination and the money perhaps get a CT scan done to see what may be going on???? It's a difficult one! I hope Lady is doing well. Hugs to you both.

I would say it's an undefined mixture of both. The ability to tolerate high levels of agitation is genetic whilst threshold levels, i believe, are the result of various experiences

Just out of interest Corvus did you recommend other trainers etc to these people?

Kelpie is Celtic for water sprite/ghost

The Pet Shed in Victory Road Airport West sells fresh meat. They usually get fresh delivery twice weekly and you can place your order for preservative free. Much cheaper than the store in Thornbury.

I must say Nekhbet, your last sentence rings so very true for me. I've given up on the whole argument between emotive positive vs negative training so I just don't go there anymore. I do what I do because it works and gets results....and WOM referrals! I am also flat out seeing clients who are coming to me for second opinions because their previous trainer's techniques were not working, regardless of what method was recommended. The day I discount any one of the quadrants from my training philosophy is the day I hang up my dog training hat.

A Trainer teaches skills or tricks to a dog An instructor teaches the dog handler to teach skills or tricks to a dog A Vet behaviourist examins the dog's psychological state by asking questions and listening to the dog handler's account of the situation, offers verbal and written advice, prescribes medication and hands over the 4 figure invoice. A behavioural trainer examins the dog's psycholgical state by being present and witnessing when the dog behaves the way it does, offers both verbal and practical advice and demonstrates to the dog handler what they must do, may or may not recommend medication which he/she will then send the dog handler off to the vet to purchase, re-books a second appointment or follow up call and hands the dog handler a tiny invoice for their time. Well that's how I see it anyway.

Leema Leema, Ray Coppinger does a lot of research and study on village dogs and it's a very interesting concept. I met Ray a few years ago in the USA at a 3 day workshop at Wolf Park...absolutey briliant and a very intelligent man.

Too many people taking the easy way out....by that I mean they would rather medicate their dogs than actually train and rehabilitate them...Soooooo I would like to see less recommending of medication by vets and vetbeh's for things like boredom, lack of stimulation, training and leadership and more emphasis on training, problem solving and activity with their dogs.

agree with Aidan too!!

I personally know 2 people who work there and one of the girls who looks after the day care section is an excellent dog trainer/handler. I think it would be best to actually go there and have a chat with them about your dog needs.