Kelpie-i

I don't usually like to argue with scientific research and facts This is not something I just dreamed up. I'm not sure who your clients usually are, but I can tell you that Mrs Citizen with her DA dachshund would promptly walk out of my school if I proceeded to hang her dog with a DD collar and then ask her to do same . Sorry abed, but I need to work with methods that the average dog owner is willing and able to do, regardless of dog breed and severity of the aggression. My aim is for that owner to come away with good handling and coping techniques with permanent results, and the way I and my instructors work with these dogs seems to work for most of them. I didn't want to get into a debate of methods...seriously over that on DOL ...you will always cater to your own audience, and my audience is the average dog owner and their kids

Firstly, no learning is occuring once the dog is pumped full of adrenaline and cortisol during an aggressive fire up, so there is no point doing anything really! Dog isn't listening nor learning anything at that time, so any reaction from you is both futile, useless and too late. I would - mentally thank my dog for letting me know that I was either too close to another dog or allowed another dog to get to close to us - take the dog away as quickly as possible - U-turn or back-away (only if pre-conditioned)- no negotiations here. - make a mental note of what I wasn't paying attention to prior to the incident ie the dog's micro behaviours, the environment, why I wasn't watching etc, whilst cursing and swearing at my stupidity - wait patiently until the dog calms down and then continue working on the CC exercises and adhere to threshold as best as possible. - keep my training sessions short and sweet Sorry if there are no miraculous techniques here however this is what I found works best for the dogs and handlers I work with each week in class and is something that almost all handlers are capable of doing.

Depends....which side of the dog am I standing?

These are very specific triggers and may possibly require some specific counter-conditioning work to deal with each individually. Perhaps talk with your behaviourist about them? Yes good idea having the thyroid tested...always good to eliminate any possible medical issues. Unfortunately we cannot control our environment and you will always have the idiot owners who allow their dogs to roam free and approach your dog. Try carryng a bunch of yummy dog treats whenever you're out for a walk which you can throw at the approaching dog. They will almost always interrupts the dog's approach giving you time to make a quick getaway! :D

megan... Yes it can be extremely frustrating!!!! I know first hand how frustrating it can be which is why this is a subject very close to my heart. I not only work with clients and their dogs, but my own dog who has issues as well....so I feel your pain. But the first thing is to realise you have a problem dog and then to promise to commit yourself to fixing the problem. Making the realisation that you cannot do this by yourself is the first step as a good trainer or school/club will help you every step of the way with your dog's issues. If you are already taking your dog to school and not getting the assistance, then switch schools to one that is able to help you with your particular issues. You sound just like all the people I liaise with each day either on the phone or at consults!!! :D And I mean that in the most respectful way....because you just haven't found the right way yet. Your dog will continue to react because he has not learned to cope with his surroundings...that's pretty much it. Which is why I recommend you commence training in a controlled environment first up. Hope this helps. :D Each to their own with the above abed...although I no longer agree with this.....USED TO THOUGH ;)

That would be the key difference Cosmolo...well I believe anyway :D If the dog is reacting through habitual residue only, then that behaviour could very well be quickly discouraged with a mild correction of some sort. There is a very noticeable difference between behaviour that is driven through genuine emotion and that displayed merely due to habitual residue.

To be honest with you Cosmolo....it's not something I do anymore because I never really saw any noticeable psychological improvements with the dog when applied, just a ceasing of the actual symtpom behaviours themselves which would sometimes return amplified if the owners deviated too quickly or often enough. Perhaps waaaaay down the desensitisation track when a dog that has been comfortable for a number of years and then suddenly decides to give a cold stare or slight bark for whatever reason....this might be the time when a lead pop or verbal "OI" may be warranted...but the dog would need to be in a somewhat calm and generally non-stressed disposition.....Hmmmmm. I will wait to see when my 'research' gets to that point before I answer with more conviction megan_ this is just my advice only.......As per my first post here, exercises like U-turns, backaways, LAT and BAT help you to develop different behaviours in the dog and also provide you with emerency/contingency exercises for chance encounters. :D Your trainer/behaviourist would be best to give you the specific program for your dog.

. abed, which is why I find it important to keep the dog just under threshold at all times when going through the desensitisation process. It's when the totally oblivious owners continue to deviate from threshold that the symptoms continue to persist. This hinders the rehab process and strengthens the notion to the dog that this is the way he must continue to act. Someone asked earlier how do we know when you've reached a breakthrough....this is merely anecdotcal and based only by my findings over many years and dogs... 1. Lack of any apparent displacement/stress signals at the current distance and at some deviation of that threshold. Dog looks much more relaxed than previous, although still looking around. 2. Displacement and stress signals can be one of more of the following: heavy panting when no hot weather/no physical exercise, yawning, lip flicking, eating grass, looking away/hiding, continuously jumping up on owner and grabbing at arms, clothes, reluctant to obey known commands (especially down/drop), reluctant to have back towards other dogs ....etc. When a previously highly reactive dogs, flying at the end of the lead with dogs at say 20 metres away can all of a sudden, quickly but calmly walk past the same dogs at 20 metres, that is the start of the initial breakthrough! The next step (of course this will vary with different dogs), would be to close that threshold by .5 metres so that the dog walks quickly but calmly past the dog at 19.5 metres (or even closer in some instances). Again, the 'breakthrough' is the lack of any apparent displacement and stress signals from the dog at the current or closer threshold. Physical corrections (however they are applied) will stop the symptoms (barking, lunging, air snapping, growling etc) but will NOT remove the displacement and stress signals, because the dog is still very much stressed in the environment.... and habituation/desensitisation has not occurred. This is one reason why these dogs are always forever panting, eating grass, looking away or jumping up on their owners in class. Which is why I call these dogs "ticking time bombs".

OFF TOPIC....SORRY!!!!! raineth, mita and Aidan, what sort of science degrees have you guys studied, or are studying. Even before this thread I was looking at going back to school (university actually !!) to study animal ethology to help me better understand the "inside going's on" of dogs. Should have done it moons ago but better late than never I reckon Where do you recommend I start looking and what steps are required? Any help would be greatly appreciated

Wow, thanks for that explanation raineth and Aidan...raineth I hope you don't mind if I cut/paste it for future reference When you say the "connection can be weakened", this would be the dog regressing due to lack of regular exposure...because the brain no longer needs to fire the necessary neurons....is this correct? Would it be the same as the critical socialisation period of the puppy where the denditric branching occurs with every new experience during the first 16 weeks? Would sound similar... m-j, they are merely exercises to assist both dog and handler during the desensitisation processes...again, they are NOT cures merely creating coping strategies. Here is BAT (which is simply Behaviour Adjustment Training) BAT And LAT (which is a Look At that Exercise) LAT

Good point Aidan....certainly something that I am noticing more and more of. Also, I am not sure of the scientific terminology for this, but have noticed that once a breakthrough has been made with the dog, it just seems to keep going in leaps and bounds...almost as if the brain, once achieving the breakthrough, continues to mass-produce the neurotransmitters required to promote that particular learning....make sense?? During this time, the dog can still have minor set backs but I notice that these are short lived and the dog seems to reactive through habit rather than through emotion most times.

Awwww shucks Aiden, thanks for that... It's a topic very close to my heart and one that I have been trying to find answers to for a long. long time. What I've written are my findings only (so far because just like every other trainer, I'm always learning) on the process of rehabilitating a DA dog.

Hey HR OMG I must be living under a rock..... Congrats on the new post to NSW. Say g'day to Steve for me. I'm sure you'll forgive all the NSW jokes then....well since you'll always be regarded as a Melbournian at heart But I agree....we are a Nanny state here and from what it looks, it'se set to worsen. Good luck and I'm sure I'll see you around the traps soon.

In my line of work and during my quest/ eternal search for the $1 million dollar answer to 'curing' dog aggression over the many years, here it was I know to be actual facts when rehabilitating a DA dog so far: 1. Desensitisation via thresholds is the only permanent means of rehabilitating a DA dog... and even then it is not without it's limitations. 2. Desensitisation needs to run it's own course - up to 2 years for some cases. Regular CONTROLLED exposure helps the desensitisation process along..... nothing else will. 3. The higher degree the reactivity, the longer the desensitisation process will take - as mentioned can be up to 2 years 4. All of the various techniques out there ie. focus, backaways, u-turns, LAT, BAT and anything else are fantastic for teaching both the dog and owner coping/handling strategies....nothing more and nothing less. They do not "cure" the aggression but are extremely helpful during the process. 5. Physical corrections are counter-productive during the desensitisation process. They merely mask the behaviour and give the owner a false sense of accomplishment....does not help in the rehab process since owner more likely to violate thresholds. 6. Once the act of aggression forms part of the dog's repertoire, the owner needs to know that the dog will always be inclined to use it. It's like a cancer...once formed, it can always resurface. Therefore your goals should be set for each training session only....not for the entire rehabilitation process. Small, do-able goals such as 'close the critical distance by .5 metres today', or 'LAT game with one dog only'. Whatever the goal/s, they should be for THAT specific training session only. We all know what the ultimate goal for the owner is Realistic expectations is also a must with DA dogs.....remember there is NO CURE for DA...just desesnsitising the dog to other dogs to lessen the fear and the owner learning how to read and communicate with the dog.....that's it! Hope my 20c worth helps the person.

Sounds adorable Cosmolo. Bill Campbell wrote about the dog's allelomimetic tendencies...this is a classic example. More pics please

I would be happy to start a database for those interested in Brenda's on-line course. That way she can see that there are a heap of people interested here in Oz which may hopefully speed things up a little. Please send me a PM or email me directly on [email protected] (preferred) I have sent Brenda an email and am waiting on her reply. Hopefully she will shed more light on this.

Does she have an e-newsletter or blog where that might be advertised? No Staff, I don't think she has and I am not sure how far off it actually is at the moment....but take it from me that she is

You will of course ensure that I am second in line to you in signing up for that one, Kelpie-i, won't you Kelpie-i ? Of course I will Erny

Brenda Aloff is currently putting together an on-line course....I think I might wait for that one

What Say it isn't so Cosmolo....and I was going to change my trading name to "Magic Wand Dog Training Services" But I'd probably be 'done' for false advertising

So sorry to hear Kirty. Please take comfort in knowing that you made the best decision possible.

Sorry for your loss...RIP beautiful angel!

Hi Hesapandabear, pls put me down for 1 book...Cheers! let me know how and when I pay.

Well written Nekhbet!