poodlefan Posted May 28, 2007 Share Posted May 28, 2007 (edited) IF the judges and stewards are on the ball, this simply shouldn't happen. Trouble is, a lot of the time, they aren't quick enough. Last year, I had an large entire male dog get up from the down stay, wander over to my toy poodle bitch and shove his nose under her bum, not once, but twice before the HANDLER returned and grabbed the dog. God bless her, she didnt' move a muscle but the dog did it a few weeks later to a nervous little bitch that broke position and ran to her handler. Never Never Never trust the safety of your dog to another person.. I'd run the full length of the obedience ring to help my dog if necessary and screw the consequences. Mind you, it's taken me a few years to come to that view.. I was too overawed at first. Edited May 28, 2007 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted May 29, 2007 Share Posted May 29, 2007 Agree PF- my dog, my responsibility. LP- i am still a little confused by what you mean?? That you wouldn't ask your dog to do anything? In turn relying on them to 'do the right thing' while you deal with the other dog? Maybe a practical example will help us to explain better. A dog approaches mine and i am uncomfortable with this dog saying hello to mine. I would be likely to go over and while i deal with the other dog and remove it, put my dog in a drop rather than take the chance that my dog will follow me or not deal with the situation appropriately. What would you do in that situation? Drop for me is 'stay there and i'll look after it for you', which is why i have such an issue with having to leave my dog in a position where i am not taking care of things for them. Personally i think the group stays are impractical, poorly taught in some cases- leading to very unreliable dogs, and don't adequately test a dogs obedience anyway. I would rather do an individual stay with people and friendly dogs moving past at a set distance where there is practical distraction not danger. In a group stay, i feel it is a loading stressful situation- particuarly because you are required to be so far from the dog and there are so many variables beyond your control. If i asked someone if they would take their dog to a park and let their dog be close to or interact with an unreliable or unknown dog- most would say no, even if the dogs were on leads. But yet, for the purpose of a trial we do exactly that with the added bonus of being at a distance, no lead in hand. My dogs are able to fall asleep in a stay if they're there for a long period of time- 15 minutes or more. They're able to do that because a stay is relaxing for them- no conflict, no conferentation- nothing bad will ever happen to you while your in a stay. My dogs help me with dog aggressive dogs and i use stays for those situations alot of the time- they need to have the utmost confidence in me that i will protect them- they do and thats why they are so relaxed in a stay. This in turn helps the reactive dog as well. Why would i want to jepardise (sp?) that trust and relationship they have with me? And the fact that these fights happen infrequently doesn't reassure me because they should not happen at all. Sorry for the rant.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted May 29, 2007 Share Posted May 29, 2007 (edited) LP- i am still a little confused by what you mean?? That you wouldn't ask your dog to do anything? In turn relying on them to 'do the right thing' while you deal with the other dog? Maybe a practical example will help us to explain better. A dog approaches mine and i am uncomfortable with this dog saying hello to mine. I would be likely to go over and while i deal with the other dog and remove it, put my dog in a drop rather than take the chance that my dog will follow me or not deal with the situation appropriately. What would you do in that situation? LOL - I think we are thinking of two different circumstances perhaps. I would do exactly what you described given that circumstance - ie: place my dog in a drop while I get the other away. The circumstance I had in my mind is where I have my dog onlead and the 'offending' dog directly on top of him - very assertive, head leaning on my boy etc,etc.... I felt at the time (not a stay situation) that I couldn't ask my dog to do anything as that was more likely going to cause a fight - so while I still attempted to maintain control of my dog (through the lead) I was more interested in getting the offending dog 'out of the picture'..... does that make more sense? Another alternative for me is if I see a dog I do not wish for my dog to interact with me, I would try and maintain my dog's eye contact until that dog has passed - even if they sniff my dogs bum etc. I have found that the other dog will quickly move on if my guys do not give eye contact.... In terms of the 'stay' situation, I would be interested in getting the 'offending' dog away while 'reinforcing' my dogs stay if that makes sense - tell him to remain there while I get the other dog and remove it?? Personally i think the group stays are impractical, poorly taught in some cases- leading to very unreliable dogs, and don't adequately test a dogs obedience anyway. I would rather do an individual stay with people and friendly dogs moving past at a set distance where there is practical distraction not danger. In a group stay, i feel it is a loading stressful situation- particuarly because you are required to be so far from the dog and there are so many variables beyond your control. If i asked someone if they would take their dog to a park and let their dog be close to or interact with an unreliable or unknown dog- most would say no, even if the dogs were on leads. But yet, for the purpose of a trial we do exactly that with the added bonus of being at a distance, no lead in hand. Agree with you 100% there! My dog finds it far more stressful in the group stays with a whole bunch of handlers lined up as opposed to 100 things going on around him.... perhaps they should change the context.... but that would be far too time-consuming ..... for them :rofl:. Edited May 29, 2007 by leopuppy04 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted May 29, 2007 Share Posted May 29, 2007 LOL Brock is the opposite! He is better in the controlled stay type situation and gets very upset in the full-on distracting type situation. He is a very anxious little beast though. I did have a dog jump on him in my test at dog school, during the change of position. I wasn't a happy chappy. The dog isn't aggressive luckily and just wanted to sit on Brock. Brock stayed put and just gave me a 'help me' look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted May 29, 2007 Share Posted May 29, 2007 LOL Brock is the opposite! He is better in the controlled stay type situation and gets very upset in the full-on distracting type situation. He is a very anxious little beast though. I did have a dog jump on him in my test at dog school, during the change of position. I wasn't a happy chappy. The dog isn't aggressive luckily and just wanted to sit on Brock. Brock stayed put and just gave me a 'help me' look. LOL - Leo finds the group stays *extremely* stressful - don't know why - but in a trial situation - I guess coz of my nerves, he finds it tough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tapferhund Posted May 29, 2007 Share Posted May 29, 2007 I'm another who can't stand the group stays , never could and never will and I have been trialing for nearly 25 years now. Fights might be rare but they do happen and IMO are happening more often these days than they did in the past. Part of the problem is too many dogs are NOT reliable enough to trial and yet their owners keep entering them ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted May 29, 2007 Share Posted May 29, 2007 I'm another who can't stand the group stays , never could and never will and I have been trialing for nearly 25 years now.Fights might be rare but they do happen and IMO are happening more often these days than they did in the past. Part of the problem is too many dogs are NOT reliable enough to trial and yet their owners keep entering them ! Particularly in the lower classes!!!! I doubt i'll enter CCD again - the class itself is excellent, but I don't think I was in ONE trial where no dog broke..... Makes a difference for CD though - no dogs have broken (actually risen and moved) in my trials so far Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShellyBeggs Posted May 29, 2007 Share Posted May 29, 2007 I have seen enough fights break out just on training nights let alone in a ring......all due to a breaking dog. Surely the judge/steward have a responsibility to ensure the safety of the dogs in the ring......and if one breaks should act immediately to secure the wandering dog. There are usually enough helpers on trial day to have someone standing by ready to come and hold the strayed dog out of the way of the dogs finishing the exercise. Mmmm don't want to sound all LA Law but I wonder what the legality would be if the judge/steward/organiser/association if a dog was injured due to lack of responsible action. If my dog was injured I would certainly asking why something wasn't done to prevent it happening by those who could move freely around the ring and could have secured the dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 Maybe they could make it that only passing dogs are eligible to compete in stays. I know I would only do stays with a passing dog anyway and it wouldn't totally remove the problem because you could have dogs that are brilliant in there individual work but can't do stays however it may alleviate some of the potential problem dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 Good points raised regarding the level of the dogs being entered. It never ceases to amaze me when i am at training, how many dogs do a runner during stay exercises and the biggest problem is that in training- the owners still aren't in a good position to correct the behaviour. At my club- they set it up exactly as they would at a trial, with handlers at a distance having to hope that the dog doesn't break, and when they do, no one can do anything about it except to try to retrieve their dog who is running around disturbing everyone else and potentially engaging with a fearful or aggressive dog who was on lead minding their own business. The training needs to be addressed before these dogs even get into a trial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 Good points raised regarding the level of the dogs being entered. It never ceases to amaze me when i am at training, how many dogs do a runner during stay exercises and the biggest problem is that in training- the owners still aren't in a good position to correct the behaviour. At my club- they set it up exactly as they would at a trial, with handlers at a distance having to hope that the dog doesn't break, and when they do, no one can do anything about it except to try to retrieve their dog who is running around disturbing everyone else and potentially engaging with a fearful or aggressive dog who was on lead minding their own business. The training needs to be addressed before these dogs even get into a trial. Can I ask a quick question :D Of these dogs that do zoomies - what is the handler then advised to do for the next stay? Are they then closer to the dog so that they can correct the behaviour? It is a relatively strange exercise - when are we ever going to have our dogs in a 'stay' with us standing there in front of them? I think that they should set up the stays as a far more social exercise in trials - they could even continue the group exercise for example - having the dogs in a group stay - one owner take their dogs and heel it past the other dogs (or maybe even fig 8 through the other dogs - depending on level) while the others stay - and then work down the line.... or at least do something a bit more practical ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 LP- while i stand there and shake my head, the handlers are told either to not do the exercise again or i've seen them set it up the same way at times. Sme handlers correct their dogs when they finally catch them :D and there is usually always multiple dogs because when one dog breaks, it sends a chain reaction down the line. LP- i totally agree with you about a more practical exercise- but i don't believe it will ever happen.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 Sorry to take this OT, but its funny how removed from the real world trialling has become at some clubs, isn't it? Two examples that I can think of: Head instructor agreed to put other instructors through ring run out practice. At the end during the group stays instead of standing in a line facing the dogs, the instructors informally stood in a group on the other side of the ring having a chat and a few laughs. Head instructor blew a gasket because 'that doesn't happen in the trial ring' and commented that he was wasting our time doing ring runouts for us :D A game was devised for advanced obedience class that was similar to Red Rover. One at time, handlers left their dogs for recall whilst the rest of the class heeled at irregular intervals and doing 180 deg turns across the path that first dog would have to take to return to handler. The non trialling members had a ball with the exercise and were really happy at how well their dogs performed. Trialling members withdrew from the class and made complaints because....that doesn't happen in the ring ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 LOL - the best for me was at a trial - Arya told me my she was asked if Leo was her dog coz he let out ONE whine (I know, coz I heard it) when I popped off to the loo.... apparently that was most unacceptable - particularly since they were lining up for stays :D someone also told me I shouldn't be rewarding my dog with a ball so close to the ring (at least 20mtrs away) as I could distract other dogs..... hmm... shouldn't they be proofed to that?!?! Unfortunately I can't use a tug as he is 'just not that into it' ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 Hey Rom I wouldn't have been happy doing that recall exercise either! sorry. That is the sort of thing that would have upset Brock and had him stuffing up recalls for a week or so. He is such a sook. (I do usually have cats walking infront of me during my recalls at home though! :D ). He has never not recalled either, even when chasing bunnies!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayreovi Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 Particularly in the lower classes!!!! I doubt i'll enter CCD again - the class itself is excellent, but I don't think I was in ONE trial where no dog broke..... Makes a difference for CD though - no dogs have broken (actually risen and moved) in my trials so far :D Ive always been a little confused in the classes. Is CCD the same as Encouragement? Where you dont really have to do it and can go straight into Novice if you want? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 Yeah, CCD is optional. You can go straight to Novice after you've passed at a sweepstakes. But Novice is all offlead now so I guess that some may see an issue with introducing their dog to the trial environment without a lead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 LOL - the best for me was at a trial - Arya told me my she was asked if Leo was her dog coz he let out ONE whine (I know, coz I heard it) when I popped off to the loo.... apparently that was most unacceptable - particularly since they were lining up for stays :Dsomeone also told me I shouldn't be rewarding my dog with a ball so close to the ring (at least 20mtrs away) as I could distract other dogs..... hmm... shouldn't they be proofed to that?!?! Unfortunately I can't use a tug as he is 'just not that into it' Yeah, that woman really got offended when I told her that he wasn't making that much noise and they should have been able to stand it. He he. What silly old B$^#*%!!! Geez, the best distraction of all that day were the little pigs running around in their pen in the property next to the grounds. Hilarious! IMHO, balls, other people, animals, etc. are a part of life. Dogs sitting a metre apart is much more stressful for the dog than anyone outside the ring doing anything. Not to mention that these two incidents were at Berwick where it wasn't just a rope but a chain link fence between us and the competitors!! Probably just someone jealous of Leo ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayreovi Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 Yeah, CCD is optional. You can go straight to Novice after you've passed at a sweepstakes. But Novice is all offlead now so I guess that some may see an issue with introducing their dog to the trial environment without a lead? Sweepstakes? I would much prefer to go straight into Novice but may do CCD for our first trial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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