Choker Chains

[MayaBC]

Hi All,

I have searched the forum for info on this and read through. I know it has been talked about a number of times, but wanted to ask for the specifics of my situation.

I live in country SA, with only one dog obedience class within an hour, or probably 2, of me. This particular dog obedience class requires the use of choker chains. I haven't been there yet as they have been off over xmas etc, so don't know if it's just for the entire session, or if they recommend them for at all times. I have a 5 month old Border Collie, who is just gorgeous, by gorgeous I mean she is cuddly, affectionate.....disobedient, insolent, crazy, psycho etc etc , but has the most beautiful little nature. She comes when called... if she wants to, and when walked on the lead.... she pulls like crazy. She will sit.... if there is food involved or you are holding a toy or random item that she would like to chew on. She is very clever and has potential, she's just a little hyperactive at the moment, hence going to dog obedience.

Given that she is 5 months old and pulls when on a lead the way she does, is a choker chain a bad idea? I would have no idea how to fit it correctly which worries me, as I have never used them with any of our other dogs (hopefully when there they would teach me the correct method, but who knows?). I am concerned that she maybe too young? And that obviously with her pulling I might hurt her.

I am not terribly keen on the idea to say the least, but then she needs the obedience lessons so I might not have a choice as going to another class isn't really an option. The person who runs the class sounds lovely on the phone, really helpful , and have spoken to a friend who took her dog through there and she said she had the same concerns as me but it was fine. Guess I'm just after someone to tell me that I am being a softy and that my little girl will be fine!

[BigBen]

This site http://www.dogstardaily.com/ can teach you to teach your dog to walk on a loose lead - amongst a whole lot of other things. I would never use a choke chain on my dog... it's absolutely unnecessary and also dangerous.

Your dog sounds delightful...

[Kavik]

I would go to a class without the dog to see what you think, then you can check out their methods

There is nothing wrong with check chains, I sometimes use one on Diesel, but what you want to do is to see what sort of training style they have at the club. Ideally they will let you use the type of collar that is suitable for your dog, and will allow martingale and flat collars as well as check chains. Also you want to check what type of reward system they use and whether they use positive reinforcement.

As you said, your dog works for food and toys, which is great Check to see whether this club trains using toys and treats, and will allow you to take them into class.

So you want to see how the people train, whether the handlers and dogs look happy working, and what they will allow you to use and bring.

[Cosmolo]

Exactly what Kavik said!!!

[Tassie]

Agreed. And I would add - whatever you decide to do in the end, I would not be using a check chain on a 5 month old - particularly a Border Collie.

By all means discuss your concerns with the Club. If you are required to use something other than a flat collar, have a look at martingales, or something like the Black Dog limited slip or training collar.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I would go to a class without the dog to see what you think, then you can check out their methods

I agree. The last thing you want, no matter what tools are used, is to go to a class you're not comfortable with. Tools are only one part of the class, the most important part is the instructor and their capacity to pass on their knowledge in an effective way. If you attend by yourself first, you'll be able to observe properly without worrying about your dog and what it is doing. If the lady is a nice as she sounds, hopefully you're on a winner!

That said, I have a close friend who had a BC. They attended a check chain class in the early 90's and she literally could not check her dog. It just didn't sit with her personality and it wasn't something she was comfortable with so every time she tried she made a hash of it. She got very distressed at herself for not being tough enough but he was not a problem dog and if someone had shown her some alternatives she was a consistent and smart woman and would have been able to do them fine.

This board can be a bit religious about training tools sometimes. You are not obliged to do anything with your dog that you are not comfortable with no matter what anyone says or implies about your character. As long as you keep an open mind and a clear eye about what is in your dog's best interests you will be fine. If that means that instead of attending this class, you use the money to travel to buy a couple of one-on-one lessons from a recommended trainer that's a better option than putting yourself and your dog through something that is stressful and uncomfortable for you. That goes for positive classes as well, they can also be a waste of time with the wrong instructor.

[Cosmolo]

to Anita's post

[PAX]

I would be horrified to put a check chain on a 5 month old BC when they clearly have no knowledge of how experienced you are at using it.

Before everyone shoots me, I have no problem with Check Chains with an experienced handler but most novice people will happily walk along choking the poor dog and not ever realise it.

I also would have a big issue with a 'one size fits all' method, so do as previously advised a go and have a look without your puppy first.

If the club has nothing to hide they will hide nothing and welcome your questions and concerns.

Happy training.

[WildatHeart]

i would wait until the dog is a bit older. Go to the class in a flat collar for now (if they will allow it) and learn the skills you need for how to use the check chain. If you put this on your pup and don't know how to use it correctly she will become desensitised to the check chain, thus rendering ineffective especially if she pulls through it all the time.

[MayaBC]

This site http://www.dogstardaily.com/ can teach you to teach your dog to walk on a loose lead - amongst a whole lot of other things. I would never use a choke chain on my dog... it's absolutely unnecessary and also dangerous.

Your dog sounds delightful...

Thanks BigBen, will have a look at the site. And yeah, she is delightful, most of the time!

I would go to a class without the dog to see what you think, then you can check out their methods

There is nothing wrong with check chains, I sometimes use one on Diesel, but what you want to do is to see what sort of training style they have at the club. Ideally they will let you use the type of collar that is suitable for your dog, and will allow martingale and flat collars as well as check chains. Also you want to check what type of reward system they use and whether they use positive reinforcement.

As you said, your dog works for food and toys, which is great Check to see whether this club trains using toys and treats, and will allow you to take them into class.

So you want to see how the people train, whether the handlers and dogs look happy working, and what they will allow you to use and bring.

Thanks - i am thinking that going along and watching is probably the go. I might ring her and ask about the collar, she was pretty specific about it on the phone though when I spoke to her. Hmmm.

Agreed. And I would add - whatever you decide to do in the end, I would not be using a check chain on a 5 month old - particularly a Border Collie.

By all means discuss your concerns with the Club. If you are required to use something other than a flat collar, have a look at martingales, or something like the Black Dog limited slip or training collar.

I am starting to think more and more that a choker chain is not a goer on her, is there a reason you say particularly a BC - I'm guessing because of how energetic they are?

I would go to a class without the dog to see what you think, then you can check out their methods

I agree. The last thing you want, no matter what tools are used, is to go to a class you're not comfortable with. Tools are only one part of the class, the most important part is the instructor and their capacity to pass on their knowledge in an effective way. If you attend by yourself first, you'll be able to observe properly without worrying about your dog and what it is doing. If the lady is a nice as she sounds, hopefully you're on a winner!

That said, I have a close friend who had a BC. They attended a check chain class in the early 90's and she literally could not check her dog. It just didn't sit with her personality and it wasn't something she was comfortable with so every time she tried she made a hash of it. She got very distressed at herself for not being tough enough but he was not a problem dog and if someone had shown her some alternatives she was a consistent and smart woman and would have been able to do them fine.

This board can be a bit religious about training tools sometimes. You are not obliged to do anything with your dog that you are not comfortable with no matter what anyone says or implies about your character. As long as you keep an open mind and a clear eye about what is in your dog's best interests you will be fine. If that means that instead of attending this class, you use the money to travel to buy a couple of one-on-one lessons from a recommended trainer that's a better option than putting yourself and your dog through something that is stressful and uncomfortable for you. That goes for positive classes as well, they can also be a waste of time with the wrong instructor.

This is my problem at the moment, my hubby just said to me that we would be pretty arrogant to rock up and say nah, not using a choker chain when he reckons she would know more than us. Yeah, might be right, but if I don't feel comfortable about it, I don't reckon our puppy is going to be either. I like the idea of travelling to get one on one training, that might make more sense.

I would be horrified to put a check chain on a 5 month old BC when they clearly have no knowledge of how experienced you are at using it.

Before everyone shoots me, I have no problem with Check Chains with an experienced handler but most novice people will happily walk along choking the poor dog and not ever realise it.

I also would have a big issue with a 'one size fits all' method, so do as previously advised a go and have a look without your puppy first.

If the club has nothing to hide they will hide nothing and welcome your questions and concerns.

Happy training.

This is how I feel, I am in no way new to dogs, but i am new to choker chains and don't want to hurt her and have it end up having the opposite than desired effect. I am pretty protective of this one so am a bit over cautious perhaps so hopefully I will notice if I'm hurting her!

i would wait until the dog is a bit older. Go to the class in a flat collar for now (if they will allow it) and learn the skills you need for how to use the check chain. If you put this on your pup and don't know how to use it correctly she will become desensitised to the check chain, thus rendering ineffective especially if she pulls through it all the time.

Thanks all for your advice!!! Sounds like I was thinking along the right lines. The class stars up again first sunday in feb, so I might head down there for a look before I go with the pup. She sounded really lovely on the phone and said if in between then and the class starting I had any questions or needed any help to give her a ring, so she is really approachable and obviously willing to provide help where she can. I dare say she has probably had others with the same concerns. I just realised also, that my best friend who is a local vet (and has a sister to my BC Pup) took her other dog to the same classes about 10 years ago, so even if things have changed a bit since, I might still quiz her on it.

[Kavik]

Things would have changed a lot in 10 years

Since I started training my first dog 16 years ago, the club I first trained with went from check chains/martingales not much food rewards to no check chains, lots of food rewards. I don't currently train there as I have moved and they are now too far away (and I like having the option of a check chain if I choose to use one)

[ness]

Even our super traditional club (don't get me started) won't recommend a check chain until the dogs are 6 months. So puppy classes are all done on flat collars.

ETA. And the reason for not putting one on a 5 month old BC is that they tend to respond well to positive training. They are quick, smart, energetic little learners and usually pick things up quickly. Its not so much the tool but like anything its about training. I don't find a check chain adds anything to the learning process especially of bright young dogs.

Edited January 14, 2009 by ness

[BigBen]

I work shift work, and cannot get my dog into training classes, because I can't make a firm commitment. I also have injuries to both my shoulders, and therefore choose to train my Great Dane in a way which doesn't hurt me or the dog....

[SkySoaringMagpie]

This is my problem at the moment, my hubby just said to me that we would be pretty arrogant to rock up and say nah, not using a choker chain when he reckons she would know more than us.

This is not an area where depth of knowledge is the only factor. Sometimes what the trainer is looking for in their own dogs is not what you are looking for for your dog. Sometimes the breeds they are experienced with and the goals they have for their dogs are different. Sometimes they select for dogs that can take the type of training they dish out, and that doesn't translate well to companion owners who picked the pup because they fell in love and wouldn't consider getting rid of a difficult to train dog. Sometimes they are fine with doing things you are not fine with, and knowledge isn't the only issue there, values are.

There is one instance I remember quite clearly where I deferred to a much more experienced person and let them take my dog and in doing so I let my dog down. I can remember her flipping about on the end of the chain and the person next to me saying "don't look". Never EVER again. I don't care who I offend. There are also too many people around who claim long years of experience and haven't kept up to date. Time doesn't necessary equal distance traveled.

For me, the risk associated with being considered an upstart is fine, it is that better I wear the pain of a bad decision in that respect than my dog wear the pain of a bad decision.

[Kavik]

I've had the same experience Anita, I let a well known instructor/competitor handle my dog aggressive dog once and it did not go well, she just wanted to get back to me and was not happy.

It is important to use what you feel comfortable with. If you have issues you may need to reconsider what you will use but with no issues there is plenty of choice of methods out there.

[Just Midol]

I work shift work, and cannot get my dog into training classes, because I can't make a firm commitment. I also have injuries to both my shoulders, and therefore choose to train my Great Dane in a way which doesn't hurt me or the dog....

A perfect example of why sometimes, a correction collar IS a great tool first up, with nothing else tried.

If I had buggered shoulders, I'd correct the behaviour as fast as I possibly could without causing me harm. Some people would probably prefer you suffer though and hurt yourself whilst using a slower method.

[BigBen]

I use a Black Dog modified Martingale Collar... I never yank on the lead... I just hold it firmly in my right hand at belt level, and if Ben pulls I stop.. Sometimes I need the other hand to keep the right one close to by body.. When I stop Ben turns around to see what I'm doing, that slackens the lead, and we're off again.

Ben is now a pleasure to walk, except for when 2 dogs down the street races across the road towards us...

[SkySoaringMagpie]

A perfect example of why sometimes, a correction collar IS a great tool first up, with nothing else tried.

If I had buggered shoulders, I'd correct the behaviour as fast as I possibly could without causing me harm. Some people would probably prefer you suffer though and hurt yourself whilst using a slower method.

I think you just assumed something you shouldn't have. In any case, who would prefer they suffer? Most positive trainers will fit a head collar or anti-pull harness in that situation (whether they are positive tools is a separate discussion).

[Just Midol]

A perfect example of why sometimes, a correction collar IS a great tool first up, with nothing else tried.

If I had buggered shoulders, I'd correct the behaviour as fast as I possibly could without causing me harm. Some people would probably prefer you suffer though and hurt yourself whilst using a slower method.

I think you just assumed something you shouldn't have. In any case, who would prefer they suffer? Most positive trainers will fit a head collar or anti-pull harness in that situation (whether they are positive tools is a separate discussion).

Ahhh, so they are hypocrites then.

:rolleyes:

[BigBen]

I was just mentioning how I train MY dog - and he's BIG and strong at 40kg - I couldn't use any harsh treatment on him, because he responds so well to positive training... Of course as he gets older this might change. The modified martingale collar probably works, because I'm consistent, and Ben is clever enough to know the reason we stop.