Halti's And Obedience?

[poodlefan]

Your dog is clawing at his face because he finds the halti extremely uncomfortable. It feels that way to him whether he's doing the right thing or not. He won't move because he finds it so aversive it's shutting him down. Ask your instructor to explain to you how such a constantly aversive a training tool can be used positively on your dog. Don't hold your breath for a logical response.

I'd be sticking with the martingale if you have sufficient control over him when he pulls. If you must up the anti and go for something more aversive when used, go for a Sporn no pull harness or similar - much kinder to the dog and much less harmful to his neck and spine.

Edited February 14, 2009 by poodlefan

[Clyde]

Switched back to the martingale and he was more than happy to wear it, but still pulled for the first half of his walk Could it just be a stage that he's going through? I often train in the backyard with no leash too and he will co-opperate there... just not out of the house where there are so many distractions

The trainer who helped me with my current pup said not to take her for on lead walks at all until I know I have the perfect heel at home . Each time you walk your dog on lead and he pulls it's only reaffirming that he can actually pull. We would set off for a walk as soon as she pulled we'd come home. It was a PITA but only took a few days to get the perfect, attentive heel - both at home and out.

Do all the heel training at home and find somewhere you can let your dog have a run off leash so you don't give him the opportunity to pull you until he's learnt it doesn't get him anywhere.

[Red Fox]

I just brought out the halti to do the usual -put it on, walk to the kitchen in it, feed some treats- and Kei saw it coming and hid under the table :rolleyes: I had to coax him out with some cheese. He normally runs to me and sits waiting when the lead comes out but now he hides :rolleyes:

I think we are going to invest in some private training sessions and just use the martingale (I have the Black Dog one too Huski)

It's so awful to see him scared of the leash..

[huski]

I just brought out the halti to do the usual -put it on, walk to the kitchen in it, feed some treats- and Kei saw it coming and hid under the table :rolleyes: I had to coax him out with some cheese. He normally runs to me and sits waiting when the lead comes out but now he hides :rolleyes:

I think we are going to invest in some private training sessions and just use the martingale (I have the Black Dog one too Huski)

It's so awful to see him scared of the leash..

Whereabouts are you located SK? Maybe someone can recommend a good trainer for you!

[PAX]

If you feel bad about using a halti your dog will too.

If you are happier to use a martingale collar then find someone who can help you get the result you want, maybe you should explain to your club instructor how you feel about using a halti and see what they suggest, if you're not happy using one it is never going to help.

[Red Fox]

Edited October 23, 2009 by SecretKei

[huski]

We are in the Riverland in SA. I am planning on speaking to another one of the trainers (different class) on Wednesday to see if she could offer some private training lessons. I was watching the way she interacted with her own dogs last week and liked what I saw. She is also friends with my mum so that could help Vet has brochures for Bark Busters but dont know what they're like?

I never recommend BB or any franchises for that matter because it entirely relies on the trainer you get. I've heard a couple of people who have been happy with BB but overall they sound pretty dodgy, I have heard way too many horror stories. Anyone can become a trainer with them if they complete their 6 week course and buy into the franchise. There are so many better trainers out there!

We went out and did some training at the park tonight using the martingale. I had my husband sit at one park bench holding the treats with Kei and I at another one about 15m away. I had Kei sit and then heel, each time he pulled on the leash to get toward the treat I marched him back to the bench where we started and did it all over again until he made the distance without pulling. We then increased the distance to roughly 25m and did it again. It was pretty low distraction but he seemed to get the idea quickly enough so we will do this again on our next walk. Only problem was that as soon as we finished the training he pulled halfway back to the car :rolleyes:

You must feel great making progress! I also find the changing direction technique useful, as soon as the dog pulled on the leash I'd change direction and treat them for being next to me. Micha picked up on this really quickly (I used the martingale too).

On a lighter note I think I have created the grandaddy of all treat bags .... We have black pudding, Protadog roll, roo sausages and cheddar cheese all cut up into little bits. Haven't tried the others yet but used the black pudding roll tonight and it's a hit! I'll be taking it to obedience class on Wednesday and see how we go :rolleyes:

I've never tried black pudding roll but it sounds like something that I should give a go!!

Edited February 15, 2009 by huski

[lovemesideways]

As huski mentioned. Changing direction is a great way to teach a dog that pulling gets them no where fast.

All you do is put them on a lead, and flat collar or martingale. I prefer starting with a flat collar.

Then go for a stroll, the very second he starts to pull in any direction, Go the other way!

If he pulls out to the left, then march off to the right. If he pulls in front, turn around and go the other way.

What your teaching him is that, if he wants to go somewhere, he cant pull.

You can use other dogs as distractions, get a friend with a dog to stand up the street. Start walking towards them, the second your

Now what you did with your husband and the treats sounded great. Except then when he started pulling to go to the car, you let him! You cant have him being allowed to pull in one situation and not in another. You should have started the same thing all over again, the second he starts to pull just turn around and walk the other way.

Its not a case of picking the tool that quick fixes the problem, you need to teach the puppy what it is you want. In this case, manners on lead. Theres no stage where they just miraculously stop pulling, theres no age where they turn into a miracle dog that always behaves. You have to Teach them not to pull, otherwise how are they supposed to know what we want ?

[Fordogs]

I am afraid that I don't like the Halti either, I have tried them and my dogs hate them (they do the exact same thing paw and fight all the way until I remove it). I actually had this conversation this morning with one of my puppy buyers that would like to do obedience. I told them not to waste their money and to continue in the old conventional way using a check or martingale and they will attain a far better result if you would like to have a dog that heels well.

[Odin-Genie]

Both my dogs were extreme pullers. I tried the halti and my elkhound hated it. He kept clawing at his face and no amount of food could distract him (I was using fresh roasted chicken for treats!!). I couldn't use a flat collar either since he kept pulling and would end up rasping and puking. His trainer suggested that I use Lupi harness. It goes around the shoulders and checks forward motion. Now both my dogs walk with a loose leash and walking with them is actually fun.

[Red Fox]

Thanks for all the tips and info. We are going to keep training the way we have been as it seems to be working and I will also keep practicing the changing direction technique when walking him on my own.

Trained at the park again last night and this time there were LOTS of distractions (other dogs/kids/joggers) so found it quite hard to keep Kei's attention. He wanted the treats but there were so many other interesting things around However I was able to use a treat to have him sit and wait calmly while a lady walked back past us (he had barked at her madly -in a playful way, not aggressive- and pulled on the leash when she had walked past the first time) so to be able to get this focus from him was promising

We have obedience class tomorrow night so it will be interesting to see how he goes. Not looking forward to explaining to the trainer that I wont be using the halti though.. especially as I still have to pay for the thing!!

[huski]

Thanks for all the tips and info. We are going to keep training the way we have been as it seems to be working and I will also keep practicing the changing direction technique when walking him on my own.

Trained at the park again last night and this time there were LOTS of distractions (other dogs/kids/joggers) so found it quite hard to keep Kei's attention. He wanted the treats but there were so many other interesting things around However I was able to use a treat to have him sit and wait calmly while a lady walked back past us (he had barked at her madly -in a playful way, not aggressive- and pulled on the leash when she had walked past the first time) so to be able to get this focus from him was promising

Hey SK - my beagle is one of those dogs who loves everyone and everything. What I find beneficial (and you a probably already doing this) is reinforcing the 'look' command. I worked on it at home first so she knew the command well. Out on walks when I want her attention, I give the look command and as soon as she looks at me I mark it was a 'yes' and give her a treat.

You will probably learn the automatic sit at obedience and I use this on walks too, I reinforce that every time I stop Daisy must stop (even if we are not doing proper heel work) and that she must also look at me as soon as she sits... now I have a dog that as soon as I stop walking, automatically sits and looks up at me. I know it sounds really basic but I found it helpful to keep her focus on me

[Red Fox]

Hey SK - my beagle is one of those dogs who loves everyone and everything. What I find beneficial (and you a probably already doing this) is reinforcing the 'look' command. I worked on it at home first so she knew the command well. Out on walks when I want her attention, I give the look command and as soon as she looks at me I mark it was a 'yes' and give her a treat.

Yep, using the look command. It works well if I can get his attention. Our distraction tonight was sticks and bark... Kei would pull on the leash to pick something up and I would change directions only to find that he'd slammed his paw over the top of the stick he wanted and dragged it around with him Once we got onto the footpath and he realised that I had the 'good' treats he was pretty responsive though

[Red Fox]

Update on our obedience class:

Kei went for his second lesson last night. I used the martingale (much to the distaste of the instructor ) I tried explaining that Kei just hates the halti and I cant even get him to walk 2 metres in it. Response is that I should have brought it anyway. Couldn't be bothered explaining that I'd only spent the past week researching it and that I wasn't comfortable with it and I wasn't going to use it on him.. instead I just said 'we'll keep working on it until I feel that he's ready to wear it, until then I'll use the martingale' I got a *look* and a 'bring it next week'... I think I'll just have to forget

I spent about 30 mins before the lesson using the change direction technique around the oval. I was happy with the way Kei responded as there were lots of other dogs around, even had some of the other owners comment on how much calmer and better behaved he was this week

Class was another matter though First 5-10 mins very responsive, rest of the hour nose to the ground pulling madly. Got told off for treating him too much when he wasn't doing anything right (no point trying to explain that I had a closed fist and was trying to get his attention and focus with the food) Got told off because he was laying down when the other dogs were in a sit (he's the youngest one there and only a puppy. I find it perfectly acceptable that he was tired towards the end of the hour as I know my dog)

I am starting to feel that the class set-up is what makes it impossible. The trainer stays in the middle of a circle of cones and we go round the outside. Typical class is heel, sit heel, stand, going around the circle with some occasional right turns. There is also breaks for socialisation, recall on lead and a basic sit/stay. The problem is that by going around the circle there is always going to be the distraction of a dog in front and a dog behind, plus there is no way of continuing with the change of direction work that we have been doing. The other issue I have is that I have taught Kei an automatic sit when we stop so this is what he does. This makes stands difficult as he will stand for a few seconds with the stand command and then sit down and look at me. This is what I WANT but apparently its not right.

I feel that there is a lot of instruction but a lack of support and one on one where needed.

I wonder if I should just persevere with this nightmare or if I should say something. Maybe taking him out of class after 30 mins would help? I think an hour is too long at his age. Bad thing for me is that the trainer that runs class 1 also runs the who club so if I have a tantrum I'll be dealing with it for a long time

If I didn't like the other dog owners so much I think I'd wait until Kei was older, but they are all very nice and willing to offer their own advice which makes it worth it in that regard. The socialisation part of it is important to us to.

.

Edited January 4, 2011 by SecretKei

[huski]

I wonder if I should just persevere with this nightmare or if I should say something. Maybe taking him out of class after 30 mins would help? I think an hour is too long at his age.

I agree, I had a hard time getting Daisy's focus as a pup when she was at obedience club for that long too.

Are there any other obedience clubs near you? Maybe you can start a new thread for some recommendations?

5. Kei is a hound, I know he's a hound, hounds get distracted by smell and sounds and movement, hounds can be difficult to train, I knew that he would be difficult to train, I was warned that ridgies are 'thinkers' and not the best *obedience dogs* I understand the traits and challenges of the breed and I LOVE HIM ANYWAY!

If it makes you feel any better, the first time I took Daisy to obedience club I left in tears (literally) because she was SO badly behaved!! We were getting stares from everyone else, it was clear I was the worst owner there and Daisy was the devil dog But with perseverance, patience and time you get there in the end, I think it's important to recognise your breed and how different dogs learn things differently.

[JulesP]

You are saying that 1 hour is too long yet you trained the pup for 30 mins before class. I don't get that.

It is not a 'nightmare'. It sounds like a typical group obedience class to me. It sounds slightly too advanced for your pup that is all. I don't teach my class walking on a circle for the reasons that you have outlined. They either walk one by one or they find their own space.

You don't want your pup to be sitting from a stand. You need to release very quickly from the stand at this stage and slowly build duration up.

If you have asked for a sit and the pup lays down then that is not good. If you want the pup to have a rest release him from the sit. Then take some time out.

It is hard to give one-on-one time in a group class because the other people then get grumpy. I have had students complain about other students taking too much of my time! If you want one-on-one then you need to pay someone for that.

Maybe the instructor wanted to teach you about the halti. They can't do that if you don't have it with you.

[huski]

Maybe the instructor wanted to teach you about the halti. They can't do that if you don't have it with you.

But shouldn't the instructor understand when the OP says they aren't comfortable with using it?

[Red Fox]

I wonder if I should just persevere with this nightmare or if I should say something. Maybe taking him out of class after 30 mins would help? I think an hour is too long at his age.

I agree, I had a hard time getting Daisy's focus as a pup when she was at obedience club for that long too.

Are there any other obedience clubs near you? Maybe you can start a new thread for some recommendations?

If it makes you feel any better, the first time I took Daisy to obedience club I left in tears (literally) because she was SO badly behaved!! We were getting stares from everyone else, it was clear I was the worst owner there and Daisy was the devil dog But with perseverance, patience and time you get there in the end, I think it's important to recognise your breed and how different dogs learn things differently.

Thanks Huski, makes me feel better and no, there are no other obedience classes in our area

You are saying that 1 hour is too long yet you trained the pup for 30 mins before class. I don't get that.

It is not a 'nightmare'. It sounds like a typical group obedience class to me. It sounds slightly too advanced for your pup that is all. I don't teach my class walking on a circle for the reasons that you have outlined. They either walk one by one or they find their own space.

You don't want your pup to be sitting from a stand. You need to release very quickly from the stand at this stage and slowly build duration up.

If you have asked for a sit and the pup lays down then that is not good. If you want the pup to have a rest release him from the sit. Then take some time out.

It is hard to give one-on-one time in a group class because the other people then get grumpy. I have had students complain about other students taking too much of my time! If you want one-on-one then you need to pay someone for that.

Maybe the instructor wanted to teach you about the halti. They can't do that if you don't have it with you.

JulesP, It's not a nightmare for most, just us As far as the training before class it's not full on training, I just let Kei walk around mostly and then practice changing directions when he pulls and praising him when he doesn't. We were told that that we had to be there 30 mins before class so I use this time to let him explore, but teach him while he's doing it. Much better than trying to get him to sit still and wait.

With the stands, I find that the instructor will stand there talking for a good few mins and this is where he gets tired and sits. I think I would have less probs if he was to be released from the stand a bit quicker and building up slowly as you said. I wish our classes could be run with each dog walking one by one or in their own space, I think it is a much better method.

I get the point that the instuctor cant ignore the whole class for 1 person but it would be good if they could SHOW me the correct way to do things rather than tell me when I get it wrong.

As far as the halti, it was sold to me, I was shown how to put it on but I was not shown the right or wrong way to correct him on it or what to do when he suddenly pulls. The instructor had plenty of time to show me how to use it correctly in our first lesson and I feel they didn't. I was not warned of any dangers, I was not told never to jerk him around with it. (common sense I know but there are some dumb owners out there) IMO there should be detailed instruction and a demonstration on how to use it correctly before being allowed to leave with it. If the instructor doesn't have the time to do this than they shouldn't be selling it.

I am not saying that halti's are a bad device when used correctly and on the right dog. I just don't think it's suitable for us and am uncomfortable using it. I just hope that our instructor and I can agree to disagree on this one

ETA. I actually did bring the halti with me just in case I felt that we really needed it. Just couldn't bring myself to bring it out of the car

Edited February 19, 2009 by SecretKei

[JulesP]

What you are doing before class is more than I would train daily. I would not be expecting your pup to do that and then a class.

If the instructor is talking too long I would be releasing the dog and then asking it to re-stand etc. I will do this in class with my own dogs.

Lots of clubs have rules about what gear you can use on your dog. Some make you use a correction collar! you need to ask the instructor if you can chat about the halti after class. Explain why you are worried about it. I personally would not be going to any club that made me use gear I wasn't happy with. Are martingales actually 'allowed' at your club? All the people in my class have to use a flat collar, end of story. Next class they can have a choice of other collars.

[Kavik]

I personally dislike circle work in obedience classes

I understand (having been an instructor myself) that it is easier to see what everyone is doing if they are in a circle, but I don't like working with both being restricted by the speed of the dog in front and potentially having another dog up my dog's bum.

Plus, you need to do straight lines for competition, not circles.

I do agree that you did too much work with your dog before class, and so by the time class came around, your dog was tired. If you still think the classes are too long for your dog, maybe you can see if you can do only part of the class - the first half or second half? Or have a break for a while in the middle?