kathq Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 Okay guys am hoping for some tips on this pretty please as have only a very vague idea on how to go about it. We have mastered the box component with her now consistent, reliable and very eager to get to the box. But how do you then get her to come back over a jump. She will come back over if I sit her the other side on a wait and then walk around and tell her to "over" but as soon as I get a deviation from a straight line she doesnt go over just straight back to me. I realize I havent got it in the right language for her yet but not sure what to do. HELP!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diablo Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 This applies to the 1 metre jump in Schutzhund obedience with the GSD where the dumbell is thrown, the dog goes over the jump, collects the dumbell and returns back over the jump............I don't know if this type of jumping is what applies in your application???. What I teach to make the dog come back over the jump instead of returning around the side is in training, I begin leash training over park benches as a fun exercise commanding "jump" and "back" as one exercise, so the dog learns that when jumping over something he returns back over the jump then praise. Every jump in training he must jump back over to me to complete the exercise and training that in drive. It ends up where anytime you send the dog to jump, he will automatically about turn and jump again on the recall with 100% reliability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kathq Posted September 29, 2009 Author Share Posted September 29, 2009 This applies to the 1 metre jump in Schutzhund obedience with the GSD where the dumbell is thrown, the dog goes over the jump, collects the dumbell and returns back over the jump............I don't know if this type of jumping is what applies in your application???.What I teach to make the dog come back over the jump instead of returning around the side is in training, I begin leash training over park benches as a fun exercise commanding "jump" and "back" as one exercise, so the dog learns that when jumping over something he returns back over the jump then praise. Every jump in training he must jump back over to me to complete the exercise and training that in drive. It ends up where anytime you send the dog to jump, he will automatically about turn and jump again on the recall with 100% reliability. Thanks Diablo for your reply. The jumping I'm after is a UD exercise where you send the dog out to a box at the end of the ring they turn and sit and then wait until you send them either left or right over a jump on their way back to you at the start position. She will do this if directly in front of the jump but not when a couple of metres of to the side. She just runs straitght back to me without the jump. It is early days for me with this exercise so am just not sure how to teach it. What I do know is that she is not getting the idea cause her silly handler doesnt know how to explain it to her Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted September 30, 2009 Share Posted September 30, 2009 LOL I have the opposite problem to you, the directed jumping is easy it's the send to the box that is hard for us!!! I've only started this but she's already cluing onto it really quickly. Once she's in the box I tell her to stay and then move so that I am in front of the jump so we she looks at me the jump is between her and me so the most direct route back to me will be over the jump. I then call her 'over' the jump and use the hand signals that I will later use... if you need to you can use come first and then over till the dog gets the idea. As the dog gets better you can start moving back towards the centre position gradually. At least this is the way I'm teaching it, I'm sure other more experience people will have other good suggestions for you!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mym Posted September 30, 2009 Share Posted September 30, 2009 (edited) Honestly, I should ask Susan Garrett for a commission...I am always plugging her!!! "Success with One Jump" dvd and/or get someone who knows this style of training to show you the cues. Good Luck I am getting better but I am a great one for being able to signal it when I walk it, and then am crappy when I do it with my dog :D There will more experienced people here than me, but I am assuming you would send your dog over, then cue the dog to return to you by calling them and turning and a change of arm? Novice dogs probably wouldn't find this on a course I guess....would be interested to hear what others would do. Edited September 30, 2009 by Mym Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted September 30, 2009 Share Posted September 30, 2009 You know Mym I was thinking a Call to Side approach would work here I believe it is an obedience exercise not agility Your signal is likely to be the arm out on the side near the jump you wish your dog to take and your dog is in the box facing you? Sounds more like Call to Side than anything Susan Garrett would do (if you want to approach it like agility :D ) as the dog is facing you (like a recall) and SG trains with dog chasing reinforcement line. Also called Recall to Heel This is doing directed jumping this method How you would start Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted September 30, 2009 Share Posted September 30, 2009 I'm trying to nut out how I taught it because my Dally seemed to understand straight away when I tried it with him last week. I suspect he's comfortable with following my arm direction and command as we are training for agility. I think I would stay very close to the dog and the jump and practice from different angles...maybe even running with the dog to build confidence. I often train instinctively so sorry if my explanation doesn't make sense! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kathq Posted September 30, 2009 Author Share Posted September 30, 2009 LOL I have the opposite problem to you, the directed jumping is easy it's the send to the box that is hard for us!!!I've only started this but she's already cluing onto it really quickly. Once she's in the box I tell her to stay and then move so that I am in front of the jump so we she looks at me the jump is between her and me so the most direct route back to me will be over the jump. I then call her 'over' the jump and use the hand signals that I will later use... if you need to you can use come first and then over till the dog gets the idea. As the dog gets better you can start moving back towards the centre position gradually. At least this is the way I'm teaching it, I'm sure other more experience people will have other good suggestions for you!! This is the method I've been trying and as soon as I get past the side of the jump she runs around straight to me. Maybe I am just asking too much too soon and need to back it up a bit and make haste slowly as the saying goes. Really get her set on the arm movement first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted September 30, 2009 Share Posted September 30, 2009 (edited) LOL I have the opposite problem to you, the directed jumping is easy it's the send to the box that is hard for us!!!I've only started this but she's already cluing onto it really quickly. Once she's in the box I tell her to stay and then move so that I am in front of the jump so we she looks at me the jump is between her and me so the most direct route back to me will be over the jump. I then call her 'over' the jump and use the hand signals that I will later use... if you need to you can use come first and then over till the dog gets the idea. As the dog gets better you can start moving back towards the centre position gradually. At least this is the way I'm teaching it, I'm sure other more experience people will have other good suggestions for you!! This is the method I've been trying and as soon as I get past the side of the jump she runs around straight to me. Maybe I am just asking too much too soon and need to back it up a bit and make haste slowly as the saying goes. Really get her set on the arm movement first. Maybe you could play with the layout of the box and jump for a while... start with box and jump in line (maybe split the sendaway and directed jumping for a while and just put the dog in a stay in the box) and tell the dog to come over the jump to you and then really gradually move the jump back out the right spot? I really don't know what might work so I'm just playing with ideas! My issue is that Ella really likes the jumping bit so tries to go over the jump on the way to the box... but she's still learning and hasn't fully clicked on what I want! ETA for the agility people - for this exercise think of an obedience ring (large rectangle) dog is at one end and at the other end of the ring (approx 25 metres) is a box made of pipe (1.5m x 1.5m). Half ways between the dog and the box are two jumps that are placed on opposite sides of the box about 7.5m apart. So the dog is sent straight out to the box between the jumps and then called back from the box but needs to got either left or right over one of the jumps as directed by the handler so it's not a straight recall. I hope that description makes sense! Edited September 30, 2009 by Seita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted September 30, 2009 Share Posted September 30, 2009 A couple of things you can try to begin with for a dog that has no idea and doesn't do agility..... You can break it down even further by only putting one jump out and take the box totally out of the picture OR alternatively, you can bring the 2 jumps closer together - so 4-5m apart, still with the box taken away and with the jumps on a very low height I leave the dog in a sit wait 5-10m from the jump and in between the 2 jumps I tend to use a toy (usually an i-squeak ball) or a visable chunk of food (cheese). Depending on which jump you are sending to - I would go up and touch the bar of the jump and then walk to a position directly opposite the dog and give an extended signal and a step to the side of the jump you want the dog to take using the arm with the food or the ball in it. If the dog heads towards the jump I about turn and throw the ball or the food behind me and tell the dog to get it. I then call the dog to me - ask for a present and reward. I then leave the dog in a sit - where it is and I walk to the other end of the ring and go through the same process - because you have taken the box out of the position it really doesn't matter which end of the ring you work from. If the dog runs to me and doesn't go over the jump - I would set the dog up more in line with the jump. From here you can progress - to making it a game - as the dog takes the jump and you throw the food behind you - the dog runs to get the food I then hightail it to the other end of the ring and as the dog comes running back I will give a signal over one of the jumps. Some people say that they start with 2 bars jumps rather than a solid and a bar - but I usually have the gear set up for the other kids so the dogs use whats out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted September 30, 2009 Share Posted September 30, 2009 Can you use a verbal jump command? Even if you can't in comp I would be tempted to use one for training (with the visual command) and then fade it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Can you use a verbal jump command? Even if you can't in comp I would be tempted to use one for training (with the visual command) and then fade it. you sure can Verbal and hand signal - but you can't be a leaning tower or pisa with your signal or take a step to the side *makes notes of what to practice in the coming weeks* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 but you can't be a leaning tower or pisa with your signal damn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vehs Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 When we did agility our instructors showed us a method of 'pushing the path' - I'm sure it's on google somewhere, means I barely have to move hmm this thread has inspired me.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kathq Posted October 1, 2009 Author Share Posted October 1, 2009 A couple of things you can try to begin with for a dog that has no idea and doesn't do agility..... You can break it down even further by only putting one jump out and take the box totally out of the picture OR alternatively, you can bring the 2 jumps closer together - so 4-5m apart, still with the box taken away and with the jumps on a very low height I leave the dog in a sit wait 5-10m from the jump and in between the 2 jumps I tend to use a toy (usually an i-squeak ball) or a visable chunk of food (cheese). Depending on which jump you are sending to - I would go up and touch the bar of the jump and then walk to a position directly opposite the dog and give an extended signal and a step to the side of the jump you want the dog to take using the arm with the food or the ball in it. If the dog heads towards the jump I about turn and throw the ball or the food behind me and tell the dog to get it. I then call the dog to me - ask for a present and reward. I then leave the dog in a sit - where it is and I walk to the other end of the ring and go through the same process - because you have taken the box out of the position it really doesn't matter which end of the ring you work from. If the dog runs to me and doesn't go over the jump - I would set the dog up more in line with the jump. From here you can progress - to making it a game - as the dog takes the jump and you throw the food behind you - the dog runs to get the food I then hightail it to the other end of the ring and as the dog comes running back I will give a signal over one of the jumps. Some people say that they start with 2 bars jumps rather than a solid and a bar - but I usually have the gear set up for the other kids so the dogs use whats out there. Thanks Ptolomy Shall try this method tomorrow and see how we go.. As for making it a game - I am blessed or cursed not sure which at this point but the little darling thinks all training is a game invented just for her. Silly little thing does back flips when the training collar comes out of the bag and doesnt care how many times a day/week you do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Hey kathq I did a bit of what Ptolomy suggested and my girl clued onto it realy quickly. I have 2 bar jumps (don't own a solid) set up about 3-4 meters apart (pure neccessity as my yard isn't wide enough) and just did a couple of overs in both directions. Although I don't throw toys away I have her come back to me for her tug reward but I don't think it makes much difference. I am giving some really big exaggerated signals - like whole body stepping in the right direction with a mega arm wave as well to really stress the point I'm making. Ella just sits there quivering waiting to be told to jump!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kathq Posted October 1, 2009 Author Share Posted October 1, 2009 Will get a couple of bar jumps out of the store room tomorrow and give it a try.. Its good having a keen dog isnt it???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mym Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Kind of agree with Kavik, but maybe this is just as easy as a simple turn of your shoulder back toward the jump the dog as just gone over and a change of hand. The dog should turn and move toward your reinforcement zone (if that is what you have trained) and that would mean that he would go back over the jump; turning in the direction you turned. Let us know how you get on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kathq Posted October 2, 2009 Author Share Posted October 2, 2009 Tried the two bar jumps yesterday. With a little success. Had to resort to major baby steps though. The jumps close togethor (just wide enough for her to get between) set her up 2 metres back I stand a metre or so the other side close enough to stop her if she runs between. And signal with exageration in place which one to do. Reward with the hand that gave the signal. She seemed to have more trouble with the left than the right but after a few attempts she seemed to pick it up. Tried again this morning with only one attempt to go between out of 4 or 5 goes. Will work at this level for a while before increasing all distances involved or pairing with the box. Thanks to everyone for their suggestions I now have an idea of how to go forward with this. Will let you all know how we go possibly with video if I can convince someone to tape me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 I think I would be increasing her distance from the bars before increase the distance the bars are apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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