When Do You Interfere

[oakeydoak1]

Hi All

Just wondering, when your bitch is whelping and is trying to stimulate the pup - how long do you give the pup to move before you interfere and try stimulating it yourself.

We will be having our third litter soon and the second was born by Caesar so I didnt have that problem but the first litter we lost two puppies as we thought she had finished at 5 - and by morning she had had 3 more but 2 were dead. This time I will be staying up until I am definate she has finished.

Thanks

[Missymoo]

I am probably a bit quick for some people here, but I pretty much get in there, get sack off and stimulate, then give back to the bitch..I nearly lost a pup waiting for bitch to do it...she was soo sloooowww..I guess it depends on your bitches..?

[Sandra777]

I want to see a pup start to wriggle/stretch within 5 or so seconds of it hitting the ground. If mum doesn't break the sack in the same time frame I'll generally just puncture the sack and pull it off the head without moving the puppy (sneaky rip and tear ). If the bitch doesn't get the puppy really moving within 1/2 a minute I'll do the job. I realise the pup won't suffocate and die in 5 seconds, but wheezie pups totally freak me out (had problems with fading puppy in the past) so I try to avoid even a "normal" amount of inhalation.

I've had a number of bitches sneak a final pup out after clean up, but not 3!, what sized dog are you talking about?

[redkidsmum]

I do exactly the same.I .get the sack off immediately ..cut the cord..stimulate the pup then give it to mum. Never had any problems doing this,my mums trust me ,I do not leave them from the time second stage labour starts till I know all puppies delivered safely .Then I camp down near them for at least three days & nights,just to be sure all well

[angelsun]

I don't wait for mum...I clean off, rip cord if mum hasn't done it and get rubbing with a dry towel....Mum of course is free to help lick etc but often she is busy cleaning herself up....a vigorous rubbing and then I'll give pup to mum if it's breathing. If not...pups mine until I either get it going or it is simply not viable....if that is the case, mum never sees it.

[Rysup]

I dont wait for mum either. My bitches are notoriously pathetic when it comes to getting their babies out of the sacks.

[Bilbo Baggins]

I don't wait for mum...I clean off, rip cord if mum hasn't done it and get rubbing with a dry towel....Mum of course is free to help lick etc but often she is busy cleaning herself up....a vigorous rubbing and then I'll give pup to mum if it's breathing. If not...pups mine until I either get it going or it is simply not viable....if that is the case, mum never sees it.

Exactly the same too precious to allow Mum to dither.

I watched a Youtube of pups being born in America looked like pitbulls, the humans did nothing nor did the mum and pus flat as biscuits. stopped watching did not want to know what happened.

[cowanbree]

I also do it all right from getting the sack off to doing the cords. I also don't leave them for at least 2-3 days

[Allerzeit]

I don't wait for mum...I clean off, rip cord if mum hasn't done it and get rubbing with a dry towel....Mum of course is free to help lick etc but often she is busy cleaning herself up....a vigorous rubbing and then I'll give pup to mum if it's breathing. If not...pups mine until I either get it going or it is simply not viable....if that is the case, mum never sees it.

Exactly the same too precious to allow Mum to dither.

Me three - angelsun's description is spot on to what we do - mum is allowed to help me clean them if she has the desire to, but I do the clean off, cord and give a rub as soon as the pup is whelped.

[Kaffy Magee]

With my first litter I was advised to take over, so I did. Bit of a fight to get them out from under her face but I wasnt taking any chances. She got them back straight away. Second litter was a c-section, but my next two planned for later this year I'll be doing the same.

[t-time]

I wouldn't have my most recent champion girl if it wasn't for my partner not giving up!

When she was born she was 76 grams and hardly had any hair.

The next pup was coming out breach and he was a WHOPPER! (ask BMP!) and I passed her to my partner and said "she's dead - get rid of her" :laugh:

45 minutes later she was active, alive, thriving and has never looked back

I will always break sacs over the face for a breath if Mum is fluffing around.

[Bilbo Baggins]

Another thing is particulry a first time mother they can much the pups head/bottoms off. So I watch for this as well.

ETA. I also put a cotton ball over the cord and wrap micropore around as we nearly lost pup because Mum chewed the cord down to the abdomen. BBJ and Kadbury had to rush off to Lort Smith to have a suture put in.

I remove the micropore the next day cord are dry by then.

Edited January 19, 2010 by Bilbo Baggins

[oakeydoak1]

I want to see a pup start to wriggle/stretch within 5 or so seconds of it hitting the ground. If mum doesn't break the sack in the same time frame I'll generally just puncture the sack and pull it off the head without moving the puppy (sneaky rip and tear ). If the bitch doesn't get the puppy really moving within 1/2 a minute I'll do the job. I realise the pup won't suffocate and die in 5 seconds, but wheezie pups totally freak me out (had problems with fading puppy in the past) so I try to avoid even a "normal" amount of inhalation.

I've had a number of bitches sneak a final pup out after clean up, but not 3!, what sized dog are you talking about?

She was a border collie - her first litter. My first too - so maybe I missed the signs that she wasnt finished, but she had been up had something to eat lay back down and had been asleep for an hour and a half before I went to bed. Must have just been having a big rest before the last 3!

Thanks for all your replies - you have all convinced me to do it myself from the beginning. It is a different bitch this time and her first litter.

[gundogs xoxo]

I am straight in there as well, babies are too special to wait. Some girls are good and I don't need too though.

[redkidsmum]

Another thing is particulry a first time mother they can much the pups head/bottoms off. So I watch for this as well.

ETA. I also put a cotton ball over the cord and wrap micropore around as we nearly lost pup because Mum chewed the cord down to the abdomen. BBJ and Kadbury had to rush off to Lort Smith to have a suture put in.

I remove the micropore the next day cord are dry by then.

Like the idea... always worried bitch will keep chewing at cord. I cut & tie it but they always seem to get tie off fairly quick. Don't the mums try to pull tape off ??

Edited January 19, 2010 by redkidsmum

[Bilbo Baggins]

Another thing is particulry a first time mother they can much the pups head/bottoms off. So I watch for this as well.

ETA. I also put a cotton ball over the cord and wrap micropore around as we nearly lost pup because Mum chewed the cord down to the abdomen. BBJ and Kadbury had to rush off to Lort Smith to have a suture put in.

I remove the micropore the next day cord are dry by then.

Like the idea... always worried bitch will keep chewing at cord. I cut & tie it but they always seem to get tie off fairly quick. Don't the mums try to pull tape off ??

We tie with dental floss as well. Forgat that. No mums seem not to both once its covered.

[dancinbcs]

I want to see a pup start to wriggle/stretch within 5 or so seconds of it hitting the ground. If mum doesn't break the sack in the same time frame I'll generally just puncture the sack and pull it off the head without moving the puppy (sneaky rip and tear ). If the bitch doesn't get the puppy really moving within 1/2 a minute I'll do the job. I realise the pup won't suffocate and die in 5 seconds, but wheezie pups totally freak me out (had problems with fading puppy in the past) so I try to avoid even a "normal" amount of inhalation.

I've had a number of bitches sneak a final pup out after clean up, but not 3!, what sized dog are you talking about?

She was a border collie - her first litter. My first too - so maybe I missed the signs that she wasnt finished, but she had been up had something to eat lay back down and had been asleep for an hour and a half before I went to bed. Must have just been having a big rest before the last 3!

Thanks for all your replies - you have all convinced me to do it myself from the beginning. It is a different bitch this time and her first litter.

My experience with Border Collies (about 15 litters delivered by me and dozens by friends) is that they usually manage quite well with no help at all.

The only thing I do is break the sack over the nose on the odd occasion they don't do this within the first minute, and touch the puppy on the mouth to get it to take a breath. Once it is breathing I am happy to give the bitch 3-5 minutes to finish cleaning it and chewing the cord. They also tend to eat the aftebirth as it is expelled so stopping them doing that is not an option. I find the less you interfere the better mothers they are. Once you start interfering they tend to sit back and let their "staff" take over something they are perfectly capable of doing themselves. Some even refuse to have anything to do with the puppies if you interfere too much.

My bitches have also never allowed me to move the already born puppies out of the box as each new one is born. They don't mind them being shifted to one side but forget about the one they are delivering if you try to move the others out of the box.

The only time I have had to assist BCs is to pull three stuck puppies, administer oxytocin if they are too slow and if they leave the cords too long I snip them shorter. A hopelessly stuck puppy or inertia results in a caesar but other than those cases BCs generally only need you to sit and watch to make sure all is well. I always have thread and scissors on hand but have never had to tie off a cord yet and have never had any problems with the bitches doing it all themselves.

I find Border Collies to be a very "natural" breed with most of the wild dog instincts needed to mate, whelp and mother, still very strong, so long as humans don't interfere and stress them out.

[oakeydoak1]

Thanks DancinBCs for your response. I guess I should just be prepared and wait and see what happens. I know my first bitch was very protective of her litter and I could not move hte puppies too much when they were born. It was even hard to remove the dead ones.

[brittanygirl]

I have only had three litters. The first litter I was over anxious and helped with the first 2 puppies then mother did the remaining 5 by herself. Second litter same bitch did all herself with me watching and checking puppies once she had finished cleaning them. Third litter was her daughter and she also needed no help. I had had an xray done for her and was told 7-8 puppies so once number 8 came left her alone for a little while. Came back to take them to vet for checkup to find 2 more puppies. Last time I will be relying on xray for numbers. In future I will do as little as possible.

[dancinbcs]

Thanks DancinBCs for your response. I guess I should just be prepared and wait and see what happens. I know my first bitch was very protective of her litter and I could not move hte puppies too much when they were born. It was even hard to remove the dead ones.

Thankfully. I have never had to remove a dead one but from friends that have the best approach seems to be to leave it with the bitch for an hour or so, then let her see you take it away. If you take it straight away or sneak it out, she will never stop looking for it.

My bitches get so stressed if they are separated from their babies that I have to put the scales right next to the box to weigh the puppies where the bitch can still reach them and when they go to the vet for their after whelping check I put the puppies with the bitch in a crate in the car, not in a separate carrier.

I always have a couple of oxytocin shots on hand to use, after checking with the vet by phone. My previous vet didn't insist on the phone check in, but this one prefers it that way. If things are going too slow I now check with the vet before using it and always give a shot of it when I think they are finished to make sure all puppies and afterbirths have been expelled. See if your vet will trust you to have the oxytocin on hand, explain where to give the injection and be happy for you to check in before using it. It must be kept chilled so needs to be collected in an esky bag with a cold brick and then kept in the fridge. If you do use it you must be absolutely certain that there is not a puppy stuck. If there is, the oxytocin can cause the uterus to rupture. My rule is to only use it when there have been no more contractions since the last delivery. If there are contractions but no puppy produced, and I cannot feel a stuck one, that I can dislodge, then I head for the vet.