Please Help With Gsd Aggression.

[m-j]

Spec training:A predictable dog, I prefer to use distance where they don't lunge and build their confidence to lessen the distance as you go and the dog learns how to handle the stress of a once reactive target. Throwing a dog in the deep end to purposely lunge to perform an air block is not what I would consider effective training, no.

Just wondering, why would you use this only on a predictable dog? If you know the target that makes the dog react and you know what your dog looks like when calm as opposed to a very subtle change when loading up, couldn't you do this with an unpredictable dog? Unpredictable being a dog that sometimes does and sometimes doesn't as opposed to one that has learned not to give a warning. Having said this I have never seen/handled a dog that hasn't at least had soft eyes go hard before reacting, even though it was done in what seemed like a nanosecond.

cheers

M-J

I was thinking unpredictable as a dog that shows intermittant reaction to a similar stimulus. A dog that is fine most of the time then flies off the handle out of the blue. Predictable I was thinking predictably reactive, flies off at every dog every time it see's one. Hope this makes more sense :rolleyes:

Thanks yes it does. So the dog's reaction is intermittant, do you feel that the critical distance training can still be used if the signs the dog is going to react are consistant, although short/subtle, even if the stimulus isn't always blatantly obvious/consistant?

I do feel if the dog showed these signs the distance would have been breached, which would be counterproductive to the training.

cheers

M-J

Edited September 22, 2010 by m-j

[SpecTraining]

A GSD is a working dog (breed) regardless of living in a pet or working home. If particular methods of training produce the best reliability in a working role where reliability is crucial, the same methods applied to a pet will produce the same reliability which is very relevent to this thread as reliable pets are fantastic and and a joy to live with, don't you think???

Why have a half reliable dog when you can have really reliable dog is my point???

And my point is there are plenty of GSDs who aren't cut out to 'work' owned by people who'd never be able to 'work' them.

So advocating that the same methods be used isn't particularly helpful for a 5'1'' pet dog owner with chronic back pain, nor for a lot of other folk. She doesn't need her pet to be as 'reliable' as a working dog. She needs a dog she can walk safely without endangering other dogs or people.

You've already provided an excellent description of how desenstisation can be sometimes be used to produce the same result as stringing up. For THIS dog owner which do you think is the more viable option?

Given the OP's stature and taking her back pain into consideration I would use a prong collar as I wouldn't be confident that any other tool will provide enough retardation in the dog's actions for her situation. The methods of training would be primarily the same with greater conditioning. I would like to see the overall obedience of the dog to see where it's at now. Ok, it has an aggression issue, but does it walk on a loose leash without distraction, is it fundamentally sound except the aggressive reactions that we don't know???

Edited September 22, 2010 by SpecTraining

[SpecTraining]

Spec training:A predictable dog, I prefer to use distance where they don't lunge and build their confidence to lessen the distance as you go and the dog learns how to handle the stress of a once reactive target. Throwing a dog in the deep end to purposely lunge to perform an air block is not what I would consider effective training, no.

Just wondering, why would you use this only on a predictable dog? If you know the target that makes the dog react and you know what your dog looks like when calm as opposed to a very subtle change when loading up, couldn't you do this with an unpredictable dog? Unpredictable being a dog that sometimes does and sometimes doesn't as opposed to one that has learned not to give a warning. Having said this I have never seen/handled a dog that hasn't at least had soft eyes go hard before reacting, even though it was done in what seemed like a nanosecond.

cheers

M-J

I was thinking unpredictable as a dog that shows intermittant reaction to a similar stimulus. A dog that is fine most of the time then flies off the handle out of the blue. Predictable I was thinking predictably reactive, flies off at every dog every time it see's one. Hope this makes more sense

Thanks yes it does. So the dog's reaction is intermittant, do you feel that the critical distance training can still be used if the signs the dog is going to react are consistant, although short/subtle, even if the stimulus isn't always blatantly obvious/consistant?

I do feel if the dog showed these signs the distance would have been breached, which would be counterproductive to the training.

cheers

M-J

Yes, you are correct M-J I agree. The intermittant reactor is quite a challenging behaviour where watching for change in body language is critical. They usually react when your confident they won't though, and miss it half the time :rolleyes:

Edited September 22, 2010 by SpecTraining

[RockDog]

To the OP will be interested to see how you go with your dog, hopefully you will be able to find a behaviourist to suit. We are a bit spoilt those of us who live in metropolitan areas.

It is money well spent though if you can find one to suit.

Good luck with your endeavours, I have a friend who has a dog (not a GSD) with very strong aggression towards fluffies, she has made great strides under a behaviourist here in Sydney and her life and that of her dog is greatly improved from what it was.

Thanks

Yeah, in some ways we're quite disadvantaged living up here. Small supermarket with high prices for one! And of course the price of fuel. I remember when there was an absolute outcry in Perth at the price of fuel reaching $1 a litre. We up here just groaned! :rolleyes:

Some other difficulties are getting to a vet, a specialist, Centrelink, Entertainment/concerts, and of course getting to see a dog trainer or especially a behaviourist.

Just the price we pay for living in a little slice of paradise.

I only know ONE person in Kalbarri who knows a lot about dogs (there are SO many irresponsible dog owners here it's not funny). He used to be a trainer and was head of the GSD state display squad. Trouble is, he gave it all up more than 20 years ago and when he heard me using a clicker with Rocky a couple of months ago he had to ask what on Earth it was! lol

Anyway, he's always incredibly busy so I can't really utilise his knowledge.

I'm confident that I'll get a lot of help from the behaviourist and Honey Gross-Richardson though, so I'm looking forward to next week.

Edited September 22, 2010 by RockDog

[RockDog]

.....poor Rock Dog got a sore brain.

:rolleyes:

Yes. Quite an experience, this has been!

[Rebanne]

I,too, have a very reactive 14 mth GSD whose lunging was escalating. No good trying to use food or toy lures when your dog is in the red zone so tried front harness and found it very good to prevent the lunging but did not stop it.

The idea is to learn to read the signals your dog gives before your dog gets into the red zone so you can prevent it happening. Proactive rather then reactive.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

I still believe this is a mismatched owner and dog, as someone who is tall with a bad back/neck, I know that a large, strong and uncontrolled dog is a disaster for me, physically and so is a medium one. People with bad backs have to know their limitations. It's about commonsense really but medical practitioners also advise you of your limits.

As for worrying about getting a destruction order on the dog if it kills/maims another dog, how about seeing it from the other owner's point of view? You could seriously ruin someone's life by having such an event take place. The agony and distress of both the other dog and owner and other witnesses is not something to take lightly. This world is not all about us. And it it lives, you'll be paying the vet bills. (recently a dog I rehomed was attacked and the bill was over $4000 as it was a specialist surgery so the dog could walk again. This was a little dog with it's 82 year old owner, both ended up in the gutter screaming whilst the other owner took off.)

When reading that knowing how bad this dog is, the OP is still putting him in situations where he gets the chance to attack other dogs makes me fume. Has even let him off the lead FFS.

The OP is trying to get some help but should not have put herself (and other people at risk) in this position in the first place.

Edited September 22, 2010 by dogmad

[RockDog]

I still believe this is a mismatched owner and dog........People with bad backs have to know their limitations. It's about commonsense really but medical practitioners also advise you of your limits.

Yippeee, I smell a law suit coming! :rolleyes: Can I sue my doctor for failing to predict I would sustain a back injury 3 months after purchasing Rocky?

As for worrying about getting a destruction order on the dog if it kills/maims another dog, how about seeing it from the other owner's point of view? You could seriously ruin someone's life by having such an event take place. The agony and distress of both the other dog and owner and other witnesses is not something to take lightly. This world is not all about us.

Oh God, how ridiculous! Is there anything at all, anything I've said, the way I've come accross, that would suggest to you that I am the kind of callous, cold, selfish person who would not see such an incident from the other owner's point of view? Where have I indicated that I would take it lightly? Huh?

When reading that knowing how bad this dog is, the OP is still putting him in situations where he gets the chance to attack other dogs makes me fume. Has even let him off the lead FFS.

Have you any idea at all where the bushland I was referring to actually is?? Nope, didn't think so.

The OP is trying to get some help but should not have put herself (and other people at risk) in this position in the first place.

Ay? I don't follow.

[Kavik]

BSL and dangerous dog laws is the reason why GSD traits are often hidden and not discussed which doesn't help the first time owner when having no idea what they may be in for

I dissagree with this statment. They are talked about A LOT. Id say second to pitbulls.

Especailly show v's working lines debates, or about their structure, and often about hips and other hereditary stuff.

I have found in the pet market many people who purchase a GSD for a pet expect a typical Golden Retriever type personality and disposition and are quite distressed when their dog doesn't act as a social butterfly and love everyone. When these people often ask around and question why their GSD is aloof and unfriendly to strangers for example, they are often misled that the behaviour is unheard of in a pet quality or showline GSD which is untrue. What I am saying is, aloofness, unfriendliness and aggressive traits are often watered down to give a softer impression of the GSD temperament.

Interesting as most of the working line GSD that I know personally are not aloof or unfriendly towards people when they are not working One of the reasons I got my boy was because the breeders dogs (many of whom work actively in the security industry) were social with both dogs and people. Quite smoochy actually. Temeprament was VERY important to me as my older Kelpie X is a bit nervous, skittish and is aggressive towards other dogs. Didn't need to go through that again! These dogs could be handled by many people including the owner's children, and by me (whom they saw once a week at training when I instructed obedience with them).

OK so my boy has some health issues (which none of the breeders other dogs do, so probably just bad luck) and maybe not the best competition prospect but he is a lovely sweet smoochy boy. He got to meet a new GSD girlfriend yesterday on our walk too Though he has the attention span of a gnat at times, I was glad that our biggest issue with stand for exam in obedience was that he would try to lean on the examiner to get pats

[persephone]

Rockdog- welcome to the D O L rollercoaster !

I know what it's like living away from the conveniences of a town/city... it does make things more difficult to access and plan to make use of .

I am so looking forward to an update after you meet with folks in the 'big smoke'.

Rocky is lucky he has an owner who is doing her darndest to ensure he can be happy and safe.

[RockDog]

Rockdog- welcome to the D O L rollercoaster !

I know what it's like living away from the conveniences of a town/city... it does make things more difficult to access and plan to make use of .

I am so looking forward to an update after you meet with folks in the 'big smoke'.

Rocky is lucky he has an owner who is doing her darndest to ensure he can be happy and safe.

Thanks.

It's frustrating, well actually a downright Pain, when you need something and can only get it in Perth. I try to go there as little as possible. Not because I don't like the city, I love the city. But becaus it's such a looooong drive!

It's funny, on the rare occasion that I find myself in Perth or even Geraldton (large town 180kms away), it takes ages to get used to the fact that some shops/servos are open after 6pm, and there's public transport. Takes a while to get used to traffic lights too! lol

I'm now quiiiietly confident that this problem with Rocky can be helped a lot, and I'm looking forward to getting stuck in to it. I know it's gonna take an awful LOT of patience and understanding and time, but that's a small price to pay for his happiness and ability to enjoy life to the full.

Bless 'is little cotton socks!

[SpecTraining]

BSL and dangerous dog laws is the reason why GSD traits are often hidden and not discussed which doesn't help the first time owner when having no idea what they may be in for

I dissagree with this statment. They are talked about A LOT. Id say second to pitbulls.

Especailly show v's working lines debates, or about their structure, and often about hips and other hereditary stuff.

I have found in the pet market many people who purchase a GSD for a pet expect a typical Golden Retriever type personality and disposition and are quite distressed when their dog doesn't act as a social butterfly and love everyone. When these people often ask around and question why their GSD is aloof and unfriendly to strangers for example, they are often misled that the behaviour is unheard of in a pet quality or showline GSD which is untrue. What I am saying is, aloofness, unfriendliness and aggressive traits are often watered down to give a softer impression of the GSD temperament.

Interesting as most of the working line GSD that I know personally are not aloof or unfriendly towards people when they are not working One of the reasons I got my boy was because the breeders dogs (many of whom work actively in the security industry) were social with both dogs and people. Quite smoochy actually. Temeprament was VERY important to me as my older Kelpie X is a bit nervous, skittish and is aggressive towards other dogs. Didn't need to go through that again! These dogs could be handled by many people including the owner's children, and by me (whom they saw once a week at training when I instructed obedience with them).

OK so my boy has some health issues (which none of the breeders other dogs do, so probably just bad luck) and maybe not the best competition prospect but he is a lovely sweet smoochy boy. He got to meet a new GSD girlfriend yesterday on our walk too Though he has the attention span of a gnat at times, I was glad that our biggest issue with stand for exam in obedience was that he would try to lean on the examiner to get pats :rolleyes:

More so in the last 5 years, I have found the working line GSD's that have the best traits in protection work tend to be more aloof now than some I remember from years ago. The nicer one's generally seem to lack nerve under working pressure, ok in sport, but lack in civil fighting drive.

[Skye GSD]

I,too, have a very reactive 14 mth GSD whose lunging was escalating. No good trying to use food or toy lures when your dog is in the red zone so tried front harness and found it very good to prevent the lunging but did not stop it.

The idea is to learn to read the signals your dog gives before your dog gets into the red zone so you can prevent it happening. Proactive rather then reactive.

Hi Rebanne - I am well aware of my dog's body language - it was a positive personal trainer who put the front leading harness on my dog and although I found it easier to hold her without getting dragged off my feet at training, it only managed the problem and did not fix it.

I can now walk her with a choke chain past barking dogs at a fence with no return barking from Skye and almost 100% attention. I could not do that 3 weeks ago! And, I might add, can control with my voice without using a pop on the lead.

My reason for mentioning the front leading harness was merely a suggestion to Rockdog in the interim. I am extremely proactive in my training and take it very seriously - the new methods used in training today have not produced the results that we need - if they had worked, I would still be using them.

[m-j]

Yes, you are correct M-J I agree. The intermittant reactor is quite a challenging behaviour where watching for change in body language is critical. They usually react when your confident they won't though, and miss it half the time

;) yes they can be very good at reading us.

[Nekhbet]

I'm now quiiiietly confident that this problem with Rocky can be helped a lot, and I'm looking forward to getting stuck in to it. I know it's gonna take an awful LOT of patience and understanding and time, but that's a small price to pay for his happiness and ability to enjoy life to the full.

Bless 'is little cotton socks!

Good Yes he can be, don't be disheartened as dogs like this can take time and you do have some setbacks but hey, who said life was easy ;)

at least you're the type of owner willing to do something about it. Keep an open mind, and I would be investing in a prong collar too to help your back cope while he's learning. It will give you good control over him without being pulled about.

[siks3]

Spec training:A predictable dog, I prefer to use distance where they don't lunge and build their confidence to lessen the distance as you go and the dog learns how to handle the stress of a once reactive target. Throwing a dog in the deep end to purposely lunge to perform an air block is not what I would consider effective training, no.

Just wondering, why would you use this only on a predictable dog? If you know the target that makes the dog react and you know what your dog looks like when calm as opposed to a very subtle change when loading up, couldn't you do this with an unpredictable dog? Unpredictable being a dog that sometimes does and sometimes doesn't as opposed to one that has learned not to give a warning. Having said this I have never seen/handled a dog that hasn't at least had soft eyes go hard before reacting, even though it was done in what seemed like a nanosecond.

cheers

M-J

I was thinking unpredictable as a dog that shows intermittant reaction to a similar stimulus. A dog that is fine most of the time then flies off the handle out of the blue. Predictable I was thinking predictably reactive, flies off at every dog every time it see's one. Hope this makes more sense

Thanks yes it does. So the dog's reaction is intermittant, do you feel that the critical distance training can still be used if the signs the dog is going to react are consistant, although short/subtle, even if the stimulus isn't always blatantly obvious/consistant?

I do feel if the dog showed these signs the distance would have been breached, which would be counterproductive to the training.

cheers

M-J

Yes, you are correct M-J I agree. The intermittant reactor is quite a challenging behaviour where watching for change in body language is critical. They usually react when your confident they won't though, and miss it half the time

Unpredictable dogs are hard they go straight to full aggression one little thing I have noticed over the years and you will spot it.

A dog 99.9% of the time when it starts to even get slightly agitated will lick it's upper lip only once straight up and down before it's about to bite.

[Flaves]

Sorry old thread

Edited December 7, 2011 by Flaves