So Whats The Answer ?

[Steve]

I want someone who loves them. If you love them and care about what happens to them for the rest of their lives then you dont compromise on anything for any reason.

[raz]

I want someone who loves them. If you love them and care about what happens to them for the rest of their lives then you dont compromise on anything for any reason.

This is what I want from a breeder and for the most part, that's what I got with my breeders.

[Steve]

I want someone who loves them. If you love them and care about what happens to them for the rest of their lives then you dont compromise on anything for any reason.

This is what I want from a breeder and for the most part, that's what I got with my breeders.

Trouble is how to you write that in ?

[raz]

I want someone who loves them. If you love them and care about what happens to them for the rest of their lives then you dont compromise on anything for any reason.

This is what I want from a breeder and for the most part, that's what I got with my breeders.

Trouble is how to you write that in ?

I dont know. Will have a ponder. What you said is pretty good, though, and you always shine through when you talk about your beagle puppy buyer that I know so it's actually really obvious how attached you are to your puppies and your buyers. You know who my breeders are - one of them is dead but the current one has sat up crying with me at night because I've had to take her dog to Emergency. She doesnt pull any punches so I'm sure you could get some good lines from her. I still think what you said really sums it up. Maybe quote yourself? It's simple and to the point. Very nice.

[raz]

'I want someone who loves them. If you love them and care about what happens to them for the rest of their lives then you dont compromise on anything for any reason.'

Steve from x prefix.

I dont think you could actually get better than that for a member of the public. It's punchy, it's simple, it hits the heart strings and it's actually true.

[Shazzapug]

Let me get your definition of Puppy Farmer right Steve.....your not interested in the amount of puppies bred by someone as long as all dogs concerned are being appropriately looked after? And if someone keeps only a few dogs but they dont look after them to the required standard they are Puppy farmers?

IMHO a puppy farmer is a breeder that only sells to the Pet Market and only ever keeps bitches from litters to replenish their over bred breeding bitches, and has more than 2 litters a month.....these breeders would also earn an income of in excess of 50 grand a year and would not be declaring any of it to the tax dept of course. They also might keep impeccable conditions in their homes and kennels which in your view makes them not puppy farmers Steve. There are a hundred times more Puppy farmers out there than the horrible concentration camps we have seen recently in PF raids.

What a narrow minded view

This is about animal welfare, including the health & responsibility for the puppies that are put out there.

As a buyer I would prefer my puppy to come from someone who health tests, considers the genetics before breeding, provides advice & on going support if needed, raises their puppies well in good conditions no matter how many dogs they have or if they show.

If its a show breeder who only breeds for themselves & to show, sells off the rest & keeps them in crap conditions I don't care if they aren't a puppy farm. I would not want a pup from them.

Lucky the choice is not always from the 2 extremes. If someone has 2 litters a month, every month & over breeds the bitches obviously there is cause for concern, no matter what you class them as.

Narrow minded or not that is my opinion and view.....my Pugs are my life and I love them all and I know exactly where every one of my pet puppies are and I get them returning for brothers and sisters for their babies. I am lucky to have half a dozen litters a year if all goes well and I am lucky when I get 4-5 in a litter, so far this year 3 singletons....I breed to

improve my lines and the puppies I sell are the best darn Pet Pugs in the park...just go down to Pugwood and see.

When the love and emotion and caring is not there and replaced by money driven breeding to me it then turns into Puppy farming.

[spanky]

If we call for more policing of the current laws - do we mean more policing of all the current laws or are we only calling for more policing of the current laws which we agree with which dont affect us?

If we are calling for all laws which are current to be policed are we prepared to have a group policing them which is anti breeder and which has discretionary powers and police powers without external accountability?

If we are calling for more laws to be introduced are we calling for laws which will treat all people who breed dogs as potentail crimminals and animal abusers or only some - if its only some then how do we identify them and have laws which apply to them alone without those laws being deemed to be inequitable and restricting trade and basic property rights of only one or two groups? Who will decide which groups or group is exempt?

I want to see the council to take more responsibility. We pay rego fees each year so use some of that to put the current laws into effect. I don't think the RSPCA should have the market on animal stuff, the council needs to step up to the plate and be actively involved in these issues.

[spanky]

As for education... Bunnings do free DIY sessions... what do you think would be the chance of getting a major pet store chain on board that would run free pet care sessions? One day a weekend with a couple of topics conducted at different times and have kid friendly ones. If it was supported by MDBA or ANKC with their input to develop the training material it could work.

[asal]

Let me get your definition of Puppy Farmer right Steve.....your not interested in the amount of puppies bred by someone as long as all dogs concerned are being appropriately looked after? And if someone keeps only a few dogs but they dont look after them to the required standard they are Puppy farmers?

IMHO a puppy farmer is a breeder that only sells to the Pet Market and only ever keeps bitches from litters to replenish their over bred breeding bitches, and has more than 2 litters a month.....these breeders would also earn an income of in excess of 50 grand a year and would not be declaring any of it to the tax dept of course. They also might keep impeccable conditions in their homes and kennels which in your view makes them not puppy farmers Steve. There are a hundred times more Puppy farmers out there than the horrible concentration camps we have seen recently in PF raids.

What a narrow minded view

This is about animal welfare, including the health & responsibility for the puppies that are put out there.

As a buyer I would prefer my puppy to come from someone who health tests, considers the genetics before breeding, provides advice & on going support if needed, raises their puppies well in good conditions no matter how many dogs they have or if they show.

If its a show breeder who only breeds for themselves & to show, sells off the rest & keeps them in crap conditions I don't care if they aren't a puppy farm. I would not want a pup from them.

Lucky the choice is not always from the 2 extremes. If someone has 2 litters a month, every month & over breeds the bitches obviously there is cause for concern, no matter what you class them as.

actually its the likes of sharon that has sent the pedigree breeders down the road of destroying their own members, u fit their mould or else. and the canine councils are tending to go that way to be seen to be "doing the right thing" and the likes of sharon think they are safe from the witch hunt.

soo when one of em is burned at the stake her once friends stand back in horror,, n let em burn.

one less, one less, till theres no more.

but its all for the "great good" n the ethicals still standing dont think they will be next.

news for u.

when you are next, your friends wont lift a finger in case attention turns to them.

set the wheels in motion and they are rolling arnt they.. although the ethicals still think any they thought were ethical snared must have been unethical after all and hiding their evilness after all, so no chance of their mates lifting a finger to say, hey no this is wrong.

judy guard surely has proven that?

how much does it take for you "ethicals" to realise your way isnt the high way?

[Steve]

If we call for more policing of the current laws - do we mean more policing of all the current laws or are we only calling for more policing of the current laws which we agree with which dont affect us?

If we are calling for all laws which are current to be policed are we prepared to have a group policing them which is anti breeder and which has discretionary powers and police powers without external accountability?

If we are calling for more laws to be introduced are we calling for laws which will treat all people who breed dogs as potentail crimminals and animal abusers or only some - if its only some then how do we identify them and have laws which apply to them alone without those laws being deemed to be inequitable and restricting trade and basic property rights of only one or two groups? Who will decide which groups or group is exempt?

I want to see the council to take more responsibility. We pay rego fees each year so use some of that to put the current laws into effect. I don't think the RSPCA should have the market on animal stuff, the council needs to step up to the plate and be actively involved in these issues.

Yep so do I but I do think there is a difference between policing laws which are about compliance for some mickey mouse stuff - like where my dog sleeps and how many I can have in a house yard etc and the real stuff that impacts like not feeding them or throwing them against the fence etc too. I dont think its up to a council or a police officer or the RSPCA to tell me when I have to vaccinate my dog and make it a crimminal offence if I dont as is the case in NSW and Victoria.

i dont think mandatory laws should dictate that my dogs should be kept on hard impervious floors when they have evolved to run on dirt and dig and sunbake either.

When you get laws and the RSPCA policing them which turns an old lady into a crimminal because she took a dog to a dog show which was debarked by a licenced and very competent vet because she didnt ask some stranger first its time to say we have truly gone way too far.

[~Anne~]

The average person, regardless of how much education / info they are provided with, isn't going to be willing to wait x number of months for a pup and there are a lot of people that want dogs that a ethical breeder probably wouldn't sell to, so there will always be a demand for dogs from pet shops / puppy farms / byb.

Yes I agree with this. It's the - I want a puppy and I want it now - attitude that keeps the sausage factories and pet shop sales in business.

Buyer behaviour and community expectations and behaviour have been successfully altered for centuries with education and marketing campaigns.

Think of major gov campaigns that you know of like the Grim Reaper. It actually educated and changed social behaviour. There are a million examples of how this has worked but that is the main one that comes to mind.

Edited November 8, 2010 by ~Anne~

[Steve]

As for education... Bunnings do free DIY sessions... what do you think would be the chance of getting a major pet store chain on board that would run free pet care sessions? One day a weekend with a couple of topics conducted at different times and have kid friendly ones. If it was supported by MDBA or ANKC with their input to develop the training material it could work.

I love this idea.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

I want someone who loves them. If you love them and care about what happens to them for the rest of their lives then you dont compromise on anything for any reason.

This is what I want from a breeder and for the most part, that's what I got with my breeders.

Trouble is how to you write that in ?

yep i want what you 2 are having and i dont have any idea how this could be written.

i suppose we could look at what it means to love a dog and puppies and what a person who loves them would do for them?

[raz]

yep i want what you 2 are having and i dont have any idea how this could be written.

i suppose we could look at what it means to love a dog and puppies and what a person who loves them would do for them?

I really do think Steve has said it - I'm trying to look at it as just Joe Blow wanting to buy a dog. Now the problem is, getting Joe Blow to love his puppy and know what the bond is between breeder, buyer and puppy. I'll sleep on this and hope to come up with an idea.

[Christina]

I want someone who loves them. If you love them and care about what happens to them for the rest of their lives then you dont compromise on anything for any reason.

Sorry but do you cry when the last puppy goes. I can't be the only silly one.

[raz]

Sorry but do you cry when the last puppy goes. I can't be the only silly one.

That is gorgeous. A friend of mine is a breeder and with every puppy sale she sits on the front porch and bursts into tears. Unfortunately sometime the puppy buyer has to drive back because they've forgotten something and they catch you having a cry. You mean hearted breeders

[Steve]

We have a pet owner course which takes them through exercises to help them to bond with their puppies and learn about what makes their puppy unique etc.

It goes out for free. Thats given me new idea.

[Gayle.]

Puppy farms are first and foremost a business enterprise, and the way to stop them is to stop them producing puppies. And how to do that? Stop people from buying them. As soon as there is no demand for the product, they will stop producing it.

And how to stop people buying puppy farm puppies? Start letting them know where to buy better puppies.

People go to pet stores because they are convenient, friendly, accessible and because they've been told that crossbreds are better/healthier than purebreds. And no one is telling them otherwise.

Yep however, even if we tell them otherwise there are not enough breeders or dogs to fill the demand.

but that wasn't the question you asked. A shortfall in available puppies might very well be the outcome of shutting down all puppyfarms, but that's a whole other subject.

Go slower - what do you mean?

Ok, I'll try and explain what I mean but a disclaimer first....no matter how it comes across, just keep in mind 'm not being argumentive and I agree with you completely.

Puppy farms and their associated outlets, pet shops......do fill a market need. Not all pups who come from there end up in pounds, some of them...a lot of them....end up in loving homes with families who love their dogs just as much as you and I love ours. Not all of them are impulse buys, a lot of them are planned for, saved for....and the reason people buy them there is because they don't know where else to buy them....or the pet shops are selling the type of pet the public wants....small, cute, fluffy. And along with that come media claims of robustness, hybrid vigour etc. No matter what we think or know, it's already out there.

I don't know the figures but I'd hazard a guess that the puppies bought from pet shops, puppy farms and commercial-type backyard breeders FAR outweigh the puppies bought from ANKC breeders.

Take away those outlets, and it doesn't mean people stop buying puppies....it just means they now have nowhere to buy them from and someone, somewhere, has to fill the gap because there WILL be a gap in the market eventually.

And there is the whole other subject.

Is it possible to look to other countries...European countries in particular, where dog ownership is vastly different to here, and see how they manage their pet puppy markets?

[Ellie]

I want someone who loves them. If you love them and care about what happens to them for the rest of their lives then you dont compromise on anything for any reason.

Sorry but do you cry when the last puppy goes. I can't be the only silly one.

I do too. I've sent three off to their new homes in the last few weeks and balled my eyes out each time, even though I know they're going to wonderful homes. Then when the new owners send photos through of their babies looking happy and settled in their new homes, I cry all over again! I think its just that we put our heart and soul into doing our absolute best for these little ones from the start and become very attached to them.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Ellie

[Steve]

Puppy farms are first and foremost a business enterprise, and the way to stop them is to stop them producing puppies. And how to do that? Stop people from buying them. As soon as there is no demand for the product, they will stop producing it.

And how to stop people buying puppy farm puppies? Start letting them know where to buy better puppies.

People go to pet stores because they are convenient, friendly, accessible and because they've been told that crossbreds are better/healthier than purebreds. And no one is telling them otherwise.

Yep however, even if we tell them otherwise there are not enough breeders or dogs to fill the demand.

but that wasn't the question you asked. A shortfall in available puppies might very well be the outcome of shutting down all puppyfarms, but that's a whole other subject.

Go slower - what do you mean?

Ok, I'll try and explain what I mean but a disclaimer first....no matter how it comes across, just keep in mind 'm not being argumentive and I agree with you completely.

Puppy farms and their associated outlets, pet shops......do fill a market need. Not all pups who come from there end up in pounds, some of them...a lot of them....end up in loving homes with families who love their dogs just as much as you and I love ours. Not all of them are impulse buys, a lot of them are planned for, saved for....and the reason people buy them there is because they don't know where else to buy them....or the pet shops are selling the type of pet the public wants....small, cute, fluffy. And along with that come media claims of robustness, hybrid vigour etc. No matter what we think or know, it's already out there.

I don't know the figures but I'd hazard a guess that the puppies bought from pet shops, puppy farms and commercial-type backyard breeders FAR outweigh the puppies bought from ANKC breeders.

Take away those outlets, and it doesn't mean people stop buying puppies....it just means they now have nowhere to buy them from and someone, somewhere, has to fill the gap because there WILL be a gap in the market eventually.

And there is the whole other subject.

Is it possible to look to other countries...European countries in particular, where dog ownership is vastly different to here, and see how they manage their pet puppy markets?

Ahh much better - yes I agree 100 %