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[Steve]

No fighting - There has been a suggestion in the News Forum to limit the number of puppies a breeder should breed. I know that isnt possible. We cant limit the numbers or tell them where they can sell them to - its against the law to restrict them in how they want to trade.

Also I dont see how limiting the numbers they breed will help the problem with the ones who breed only a few and still do a rotten job or kep them in poor conditions.

According to the RSPCA a puppy framer is someone who breeds dogs in sub standard conditions. Problem with that for me is they use the mandatory codes as the standard and theysuck for good conditions for a dog to live in all its life. The question is what really is sub standard - keeping in mind that dingoes are pretty happy living in cave like areas and digging in dirt in breeding sanctuaries and that dogs are dogs and not people.

Also keep in mind that the term puppy farmer has been used for years to beat up people you dont like or compete with or do something or dont do something you think they shouldnt do.

There are many people who regard me as a puppy farmer because I dont personally show my dogs and in my opinion if I am a puppy farmer then the dog world could do much worse than to have a whole lot more puppy farmers.

I also think a breeder who has more than average dogs and knows their stuff , loves their dogs and keeps them well is a greater asset to the breed than a breeder who only has a couple and breeds now and then .

For the purposes of this discussion I dont see how we can use any other definition than the RSPCA have - even though there will be other subjects regarding breeding goals etc How do we ensure that puppy farmers are not also CC members or is this even remotely possible anyway?

No fighting.

Edited November 22, 2010 by Steve

[poodlefan]

One issue I'd like to see clamped down on is registered breeders sending whole litters overseas to puppy agents. There are a few notable examples of that.

Personally I don't think you should be able to sell a a pup overseas unless its to a private buyer.

[Steve]

One issue I'd like to see clamped down on is registered breeders sending whole litters overseas to puppy agents. There are a few notable examples of that.

Personally I don't think you should be able to sell a a pup overseas unless its to a private buyer.

Me too but thats a restriction of trade - wont fly.

[Jed]

Preventing pups being shipped o/s to a puppy dealer needs to be dealt with by rules enacted by the CCs. Like most other people, I'd like to see it cease, but the CCs need to do it. Maybe with the changes to dogsnsw executives, there is a possibility of changes

Pups not being sold by pet shops needs to be addressed by either govenment or rspca - probably rspca lobbying government - providing the law was properly framed it would not be a restriction of fair trading laws.

[oakway]

Morning all,

I think you said it all in the first post.

[poodlefan]

Well if we can't restrict breeders from doing the wrong thing then perhaps we can educate them to do the right thing.

One area I think quite a few breeders might benefit from in terms of both education and networking is seminars. Its pretty gobsmacking that you can attend seminars for dog sports but not for breeding as far as I can tell.

Case in point - someone I know is doing his Hound Judge training at the moment. I said I'd love to sit in on the Whippet breed lecture but apparently you have to be a trainee judge to do that.

Why???

Surely you'd argue someone embarking on or already breeding a breed should be able to learn about the standard from senior and respected breeders. The raft of questions asked here about mating/whelping/puppy evaluation/litter raising suggests to me that folk would line up to attend an annual seminar on breeds and breeding issues.

Hell, even dog trainers have one of those and people come from all over the world to present at it. The APDT semimar is a combination of education, emerging issue spotting and a good old fashioned knees up. People travel from O/S just to sit and listen.

We need the same for purebred dogs and the MDBA is very well placed to provide it I reckon. I can suggest a few speakers and I'm sure others can too.

Edited November 22, 2010 by poodlefan

[Steve]

Well if we can't restrict breeders from doing the wrong thing then perhaps we can educate them to do the right thing.

One area I think quite a few breeders might benefit from in terms of both education and networking is seminars. Its pretty gobsmacking that you can attend seminars for dog sports but not for breeding as far as I can tell.

Case in point - someone I know is doing his Hound Judge training at the moment. I said I'd love to sit in on the Whippet breed lecture but apparently you have to be a trainee judge to do that.

Why???

Surely you'd argue someone embarking on or already breeding a breed should be able to learn about the standard from senior and respected breeders. The raft of questions asked here about mating/whelping/puppy evaluation/litter raising suggests to me that folk would line up to attend an annual seminar on breeds and breeding issues.

Hell, even dog trainers have one of those and people come from all over the world to present at it. The APDT semimar is a combination of education, emerging issue spotting and a good old fashioned knees up. People travel from O/S just to sit and listen.

We need the same for purebred dogs and the MDBA is very well placed to provide it I reckon. I can suggest a few speakers and I'm sure others can too.

Great Idea!

[Jed]

Well if we can't restrict breeders from doing the wrong thing then perhaps we can educate them to do the right thing.

One area I think quite a few breeders might benefit from in terms of both education and networking is seminars. Its pretty gobsmacking that you can attend seminars for dog sports but not for breeding as far as I can tell.

Case in point - someone I know is doing his Hound Judge training at the moment. I said I'd love to sit in on the Whippet breed lecture but apparently you have to be a trainee judge to do that.

Why???

Surely you'd argue someone embarking on or already breeding a breed should be able to learn about the standard from senior and respected breeders. The raft of questions asked here about mating/whelping/puppy evaluation/litter raising suggests to me that folk would line up to attend an annual seminar on breeds and breeding issues.

Hell, even dog trainers have one of those and people come from all over the world to present at it. The APDT semimar is a combination of education, emerging issue spotting and a good old fashioned knees up. People travel from O/S just to sit and listen.

We need the same for purebred dogs and the MDBA is very well placed to provide it I reckon. I can suggest a few speakers and I'm sure others can too.

Great Idea!

dogsqld is now beginning to conduct seminars on breeding and keeping dogs. Sorry, I don't have the Dog World, so no dates, but I think there is one early next year (or has been this year) with Carmen Battaglia - someone in Qld might know more precisely.

[poodlefan]

Well if we can't restrict breeders from doing the wrong thing then perhaps we can educate them to do the right thing.

One area I think quite a few breeders might benefit from in terms of both education and networking is seminars. Its pretty gobsmacking that you can attend seminars for dog sports but not for breeding as far as I can tell.

Case in point - someone I know is doing his Hound Judge training at the moment. I said I'd love to sit in on the Whippet breed lecture but apparently you have to be a trainee judge to do that.

Why???

Surely you'd argue someone embarking on or already breeding a breed should be able to learn about the standard from senior and respected breeders. The raft of questions asked here about mating/whelping/puppy evaluation/litter raising suggests to me that folk would line up to attend an annual seminar on breeds and breeding issues.

Hell, even dog trainers have one of those and people come from all over the world to present at it. The APDT semimar is a combination of education, emerging issue spotting and a good old fashioned knees up. People travel from O/S just to sit and listen.

We need the same for purebred dogs and the MDBA is very well placed to provide it I reckon. I can suggest a few speakers and I'm sure others can too.

Great Idea!

If you wanted to maximise attendance, holding it midweek near a major concentration of specialties or a Royal would do a good job.

[RallyValley]

In WA we have a breeder that sticks out on my mind as being a puppy farmer with a prefix. They ALWAYS have pups available. Nothing of thiers is titled in anything and when you meet people who have pups from this place they usually have behavioural/physical issues (apparently allergies runs wild). YET they are allowed to register 2-6 (large) litters every 2 months and no action is taken.

I do not know why any ethical, registered breeder would have any reason to breed that many litters that often. I think that the CC's won't do anything because to them it's all about the $$.

ETA- awesome idea about the seminars PF. I am a newb to all this and was shocked when I learned that breed seminars weren't open to all.

Edited November 22, 2010 by valleyCBR

[Greytmate]

Well if we can't restrict breeders from doing the wrong thing then perhaps we can educate them to do the right thing.

I agree. Even if we can restrict them, educating them may be the best way to go. When GRV employed a veterinary behaviourist as Animal Welfare Business Development Officer, they did have the power to bring in more rules, but they started with education instead.

Also keep in mind that the term puppy farmer has been used for years to beat up people you dont like or compete with or do something or dont do something you think they shouldnt do.

Yes Steve.

The definition of Puppy Farmer for many people around here is any breeder not keeping every dog they own as a house pet that is allowed to sleep on their bed.

I actually agree with the RSPCA's minimum standards for kennelling, but only as a minimum. There is no way I will ever agree to people keeping dogs on dirt 24/7. The same way as I would never live in a house with a dirt floor myself.

Aside from the kennelling conditions, there is also kennel enrichment/socialisation/neutralisation aspect. A good breeder will see these things as being essential, no matter how many dogs they breed. A bad breeder will ignore those things as there is no compulsion to provide them, and they do not seem to be cost effective.

[Miranda]

I would just like to point out that in Victoria breed lectures are open to all. If anyone has an interest in a particular breed or group they are very welcome, you do not have to be a trainee judge to attend.

[Rysup]

Breed Lectures can be attended by anyone in NSW too.

I am not a puppy farmer. But my dogs are all outside, in kennel runs, and have kennels in the garage. I breed, on average, once every 5 years. So clearly I am not a farmer LOL

To me, a puppy farmer is someone who breeds regularly with no clear purpose other than an income source. They dont health test for anything within their breed. They provide the bare minimum of care that is legal, but thats about it. They certainly dont show, or trial, or compete in any other dog sport at all. They do ALL these things, not just one.

There are a lot of "volume" breeders out there, but as long as they provide quality care, health test, compete in a dog sport, then I dont have a (major) problem with that.

[JulesP]

I think that people who want to go to the lectures etc aren't people that are likely to be doing the wrong thing in the first place.

Everyone has such a different idea on what a puppy farmer is that this is really tricky. The oodle farms with tiny cages are obvious but after that it is hard.

I don't particularly have a problem with breeders making money. It is a business for some people, I assume businesses are going to make money. I expect health testing to be done and that the dogs are kept in good conditions and not over bred. The dogs should be good examples of the breed and suit the homes they are going to.

There should be adequate after care but I think people are now expecting too much from registered breeders.

[poodlefan]

Breed Lectures can be attended by anyone in NSW too.

Oh, I was told different. Thanks for the correction!!

[SpikesPuppy]

I would just like to point out that in Victoria breed lectures are open to all. If anyone has an interest in a particular breed or group they are very welcome, you do not have to be a trainee judge to attend.

Unfortunately they aren't always conducted by people actually involved in a breed

The system for breed lectures and exam night/practical sessions seems to have changed at least for Group 2, over the past few years. Very disappointing really.

I think a mentorship program is a great idea, I know something was talked about in Victoria but have no idea what happened with it??

It won't stop those already doing the wrong thing (and what will?? They simply move states and register a new prefix), but it would provide support for those starting out who may not have a supportive breeder or active breed club etc to begin on the right foot rather than being sent out on their own to fend for themselves.

[conztruct]

Well if we can't restrict breeders from doing the wrong thing then perhaps we can educate them to do the right thing.

One area I think quite a few breeders might benefit from in terms of both education and networking is seminars. Its pretty gobsmacking that you can attend seminars for dog sports but not for breeding as far as I can tell.

Case in point - someone I know is doing his Hound Judge training at the moment. I said I'd love to sit in on the Whippet breed lecture but apparently you have to be a trainee judge to do that.

Why???

Surely you'd argue someone embarking on or already breeding a breed should be able to learn about the standard from senior and respected breeders. The raft of questions asked here about mating/whelping/puppy evaluation/litter raising suggests to me that folk would line up to attend an annual seminar on breeds and breeding issues.

Hell, even dog trainers have one of those and people come from all over the world to present at it. The APDT semimar is a combination of education, emerging issue spotting and a good old fashioned knees up. People travel from O/S just to sit and listen.

We need the same for purebred dogs and the MDBA is very well placed to provide it I reckon. I can suggest a few speakers and I'm sure others can too.

Great Idea!

If you wanted to maximise attendance, holding it midweek near a major concentration of specialties or a Royal would do a good job. :p

This is an awesome idea - I'd really also like though to see technology used and look at web-streaming it as well. There are a lot of people in remote areas who can't attend the seminars but would still benefit from the learning experience.

[Sheridan]

One way to restrict registered breeders from selling entire litters overseas and without doing it as a restriction of trade, would be to push the CCs into not granting export licences to whole litters. None of us like it so why is it allowed? Because the people in charge of the CCs allow it. You're not restricting trade by not granting an export licence, surely? The registered puppyfarmers are still free to export what they like but stop them hiding behind a veneer of respectability. Of course, CCs like Dogs ACT might moan a fair bit but they made their own bed. No point in being a registered breeder if the CCs won't play ball. Ironically, the fella in charge at Dogs ACT said, when the puppyfarm stuff came up in the ACT a few months ago, that their members didn't sell to pet shops. No, that's right, instead they sell to an agent who sells the puppies to a pet shop.

Look at the Dogs ACT listing each quarter and see just how many export to McDougal. Name and shame. Does anyone seriously believe that they don't know what they're doing?

Make registered breeding something to be proud of instead of saying, 'Well, there are unethical registered breeders, too.'

These are a couple of questions and answers I have in my wheaten health FAQ because people do ask these things:

I spoke to various breeders who said that they would not recommend other wheaten breeders and indeed, said some pretty horrible things about other wheaten breeders and their breeding programs. Who should I believe?

When you consider who said what about whom, reflect on this: one of the Australian National Kennel Club Code of Ethics of Responsible Dog Ownership (which each registered breeder signs up to via the state canine council) is 'A member shall display good sportsmanship and conduct at all times so as to reflect credit upon themselves, the ANKC and the member's Member Body'.' The 'Member Body' is the state canine council, which is what makes a registered breeder 'registered' (not the local council dog rego!). Most breed club codes of ethics will have a similar statement about good sportsmanship and conduct.

Some of the breeders I spoke to don't belong to a breed club.

There is no obligation for a breeder to belong to a breed club. Like most areas of life, people don't necessarily want to join any particular organisation and sometimes people just don't get along with other people. Just because a breeder does not belong to a breed club, whether it is an affiliated club or just a social club, it does not mean he or she is a bad breeder. There are good and bad breeders no matter what breed you're interested in getting. A breeder should be registered with their state canine council and you can ring these to find out if a breeder is registered with them. That's the start of finding an ethical and responsible breeder. From there, you have to ask questions and listen because unfortunately, even just belonging to a state canine body doesn't make a breeder ethical and responsible.

Some of the breeders I spoke to don't show their dogs.

Likewise above. Some people just don't like showing. Doesn't make them bad breeders. What you ask a breeder about their breeding program, ethics and how they behave, and in particular how they treat you and your questions, will tell you more about them than if they do or don't show their dogs or do or don't belong to a club.

[sllebasi]

If the pet shops arent allowed to sell puppies/animals, then doesnt that take away the market to buy puppies which may not be healthy, cared for etc.

Then a) if people want an animal they either go to a breeder who knows what they are doing, or rescue group and b) doesnt it then make the owner more responsible (and I use that word loosely) and make them get the animals either desexed or away from each other.

A problem i can see with this is the continuation of the dumping of animals but dont we need to try and limit the market and reduce the market place - not necessarily to get more control but one cause is going to create several effects

[t-time]

The Canine Councils are private membership where you have to pay a fee to be registered each year.

There are rules and you have to follow them.

Someone like McDougal who sets up Australian citizen "employees" and gets them a prefix, is flouting the lax breeding requirements and export conditions the CCs place on pups and breeders. They may be following the rules but by DOG - a long way to go as far as ethics are concerned.

Surely being a private organisation, the CCs have a say as to the rules their members must follow? I hear "fair trading" bandied about a lot but if you don't want to follow the rules of a club including the ethical requirements, how is that against fair trading?

Go breed the pups if you want to but do it without the blessing of the CCs. I can hear you Steve LOL - about to say, "but we should be encouraging new breeders" and while I strongly agree, these "agents" are not who we should be encouraging!

It's high volume puppy farmers like McDougal who give ethical registered breeders a bad name. It's the McDougals we need to weed out first and then start on smaller registered BYBs who are keeping their dogs in less than satisfactory conditions.

And I'm not talking "new rules" but how about simply enforcing the ones have in place already?

You are not allowed to export Limit Register puppies and I think that's wrong. We should be encouraging use of the Limit Register for puppies exported as pets.