Everythings Shiny Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 (edited) The last year or so my 8 year old kelpie, Diesel, has turned nasty at times. He's had a few 'go's' at me, foster dogs and my youngest kelpie Serenity-Jayne, but yesterday turned on my 9 year old kelpie Paige. They have been together since he was 4 months old and was her breeding partner until we gave away breeding and got both desexed. D can go weeks without incident, then will have several incidents appear. I am now at a loss at what to do. I have him in a dog run atm, but we are thinking of putting up a second yard for him (he can't run free here as he will savage the pet geese and ducks given a chance). Would it be wrong to seperate him more permanently where he can't sniff through the fence, but still see them? Has anyone had this happen to them? What have you done to fix the problem? My vet has put him on an injection of MPA to help with the aggression. Our behaviouralist has no idea what has suddenly caused the problems (no change other then the fosters coming and going but that was happening before the aggression started) Opinions please? Edited February 9, 2011 by Everythings Shiny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 has your vet done a blood test and hormone level test? I would be getting a full blood screen and brain scan to make sure there is no underlying disease or tumor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Her Majesty Dogmad Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Brain tumour, dementia or perhaps just had enough of the comings and goings? Kelpies are super intelligent, maybe he's just acting up because he's fed up for some reason. I had a dog with a brain tumour and he became aggressive with me and my other dogs with whom he'd lived for 2 yrs without any issues. It was very unpredictable behaviour and sudden in its onset, he also attacked inanimate objects at times. Other symptoms appeared as time went on but I had to put him to sleep when he was having hallucinations and had also gone for my face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 has your vet done a blood test and hormone level test? I would be getting a full blood screen and brain scan to make sure there is no underlying disease or tumor I agree. I would have liked to have thought he'd run these tests as well as a skeletal exam before medicating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everythings Shiny Posted January 21, 2011 Author Share Posted January 21, 2011 (edited) Yep, bloods etc came back clear. Vet is trialing the meds as a last resort (vet doesn't like medicating for the sake of it.) Can't do a brain scan as I cannot get to a vet who has the equipment. Edited January 21, 2011 by Everythings Shiny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 The last year or so my 8 year old kelpie, Diesel, has turned nasty at times. He's had a few 'go's' at me, foster dogs and my youngest kelpie Serenity-Jayne, but yesterday turned on my 9 year old kelpie Paige. They have been together since he was 4 months old and was her breeding partner until we gave away breeding and got both desexed. D can go weeks without incident, then will have several incidents appear. I am now at a loss at what to do. I have him in a dog run atm, but we are thinking of putting up a second yard for him (he can't run free here as he will savage the pet geese and ducks given a chance). Would it be wrong to seperate him more permanently where he can't sniff through the fence, but still see them? Has anyone had this happen to them? What have you done to fix the problem? My vet has put him on an injection of MPA to help with the aggression. Our behaviouralist has no idea what has suddenly caused the problems (no change other then the fosters coming and going but that was happening before the aggression started) Opinions please? Sorry, if it was just having a go at other dogs Id be inclined to be looking at solutions but if the blood has come back clear I wouldnt be living with a dog which had for whatever reason started having gos at me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everythings Shiny Posted January 25, 2011 Author Share Posted January 25, 2011 I've built an 'isolation' yard for D and so far he's going okay... did have a nip at me today but I'm watching him and I'll see what happens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Her Majesty Dogmad Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Just had a thought, what exercise does he get? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BMAK Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I am getting proffesional help with one of my kelpies i have done my best to help beat his dog aggression but he has had "go;s (snapping) chasing down other dogs whether puppies other dogs even my older dog brandy over food. when he is around other dogs a muzzel is kept on we don't take any chances even if it is a snap other wise he is put into a sectioned off area away from everyone so we don't have to constantly panic and be watching his horric behaviour. He has never caused and injuries or broken the skin of any dog luckily but it deffinately hard work for own an aggressive dog and not wish it on anyone. i know how you feel and it must be soo frustrating. He could be frustrated with being over whelmed with foster dogs taking over his home i know sometimes my attention can be so focused on giving them what they need my dogs sometimes miss out on the attention. i hope somehow this might help or give you an idea what is causing it. snapping at you there has to be a reason causing him to act out of character over the past year. when does he snapp you when he is isolated when he is arund other dogs when he is excited or trying to go at the other dogs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 (edited) Sorry to hear about your problem. I think you need to find out why you have a problem. Dogs don't just start aggroing other dogs and biting people for no reason. Perhaps the dog has a medical problem? I don't think a brain tumor would show in blood work? Might be physically sore - rheumatism, arthritis, sprains, strains? Crook teeth? Crook ears? Go through all those, plus anything else you can think of, and rule them out. Dog may be getting a bit old, and feeling that, and wanting to keep the other dogs down now, as he may not be able to do it in future. I am not sure how you work this out -- by observation, but perhaps you can't tell. ?? Look at when the problem first appeared, and what changed in the dogs life? Was that when the fosters came? After the fosters came? Was there a problem with a particular foster? Or is it simply the coming and going? Dislikes the attention you are giving to them, and the fact that he is losing attention. Change in your habits, different people around, coming or going? A dog which has grown up with a dog or a couple of dogs may find fosters constantly coming and going in his middle/older years unacceptable, and he is telling you that he is seriously p$%$ed off with the situation. And yes, I would separate him from the others, so there can be no repeats. I would also ease up on the fosters to see what happened. I would also be wondering whether a dog which had a go at me had any future. But I would exhaust any other avenues first. And I'd probably try another behaviourist - there is a better answer than "dunno" Edited January 26, 2011 by Jed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 I was badly bitten on the face by one of my dogs that turned out to have scar tissue built up in his brain as a result of bacterial meningitis, we didn't know he had. The scar tissue was preventing the cerebral fluid draining from the centre chamber of the brain and compressing his brain out towards his skull. He must have had some mighty headaches. He had been acting weird for about 6 months but not enough to really ring alarm bells at the time. In hindsight it all added up to a neuro problem but you don't always see it at the time. The vet assumed a brain tumour and because he was now dangerously unpredictable I opted to pts and get a thorough autopsy to find out what happened. The damage was irreversable so my decision to pts was justified and even if it was something that maybe could have been fixed - as my vet said " he won't be able to tell you if the pain is gone and you will never really trust him again". There are no guarantees with brain surgery. This dog sounds to me like he has a neuro problem not a behavioural problem. Never take warning signs of escallating aggression lightly. If you can't get to somewhere for a brain scan, I think I would pts and autopsy rather than take the risk that the next attack could be a major one. Behavioural aggression is usually predictable and can sometimes be managed. Agression from a problem in the brain is highly unpredictable and very, very dangerous. As most owners don't bother with an autopsy after having an agressive dog put down, we have no idea of how common these physical brain problems are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwenneth1 Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Very sorry to hear of your situation, it must be causing a great deal of worry and stress atm. Having nursed people post brain injury who cannot verbally express that they're in pain I have observed that out of character physical aggression often manifests itself from pain related issues or only very occassionally is traced back to their primary neurological injury. We used a particular pain scale chart to note physical and behavioural information, which then would assist with getting a diagnoses through physical exam and pathology work . Treatment would then appropriately follow. It has only been a few instances when there has been a previously non-diagnosed lesion present on the brain or a mental health issue, such as depression etc. Most aggression has been from infection; new medication; muscuo-skeletal pain; diabetes ;dental; then in the lower group of causes; dietary; stomach/bowel upsets which is causing varying degrees of discomfort and pain with the flow on effect of causing dramatic changes in behaviour.. Of course, I realise what I am referring too involves people not dogs. Horses are the same, a lot of horses become unrideable due to 'invisible' injury . Anyway, waffling on, it would probably be beneficial to first 100% rule out that there is anything physically wrong with your dog then focus on behavioural aspects. (Any new human members on the property?) If it isn't too rude of me to ask, if the cause is traced, could you post what the findings were? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everythings Shiny Posted January 28, 2011 Author Share Posted January 28, 2011 2nd bloods have come back clear again. At the time of the first incident, we had no foster dogs - last one had gone a month prior, he was getting 30 minute 'free' runs in our top 2 acre paddock. Second time was when his life partner, Paige, was desexed. Paige came back and he went silly and bit her face. Everytime this has happened, there has been no constant thing involved. He can be on his own, we can have him with other dogs, new fosters, no fosters etc and he does it. All this has flared from since being desexed, but his vet doesn't think that has much to do with it. The behaviouralist we saw is one of the best in the area, he has spoke with others about this case and no one can pin point whats going on. We've had D checked for tumours, arthritis etc etc, all clear. Everyone is confused as all hell. D is on his own in a new yard, but he can still see the other dogs from where he is. He has had one snap at me since, but I am very careful around him. The only thing we can think of is maybe he is aging worse then he should be? Possible dementia? We don't know :D It's upsetting for me as I hate him attacking the others and myself as he normally is a very loving dog. He still wants his hugs and kissed when he isn't trying to be stupid. I sometimes wonder if he realised he does it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 I sometimes wonder if he realised he does it.. Probably not perhaps introduce him gradually to a nice soft muzzle ..so that when you are doing stuff with him you won't be sending subconscious anxiety messages ,fearing a bite? His muzzle could be the 'key' to a special walk/car ride/small treat /cuddle ... Hard for you- I'm sorry. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huga Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 The last year or so my 8 year old kelpie, Diesel, has turned nasty at times. He's had a few 'go's' at me, foster dogs and my youngest kelpie Serenity-Jayne, but yesterday turned on my 9 year old kelpie Paige. They have been together since he was 4 months old and was her breeding partner until we gave away breeding and got both desexed. D can go weeks without incident, then will have several incidents appear. I am now at a loss at what to do. I have him in a dog run atm, but we are thinking of putting up a second yard for him (he can't run free here as he will savage the pet geese and ducks given a chance). Would it be wrong to seperate him more permanently where he can't sniff through the fence, but still see them? Has anyone had this happen to them? What have you done to fix the problem? My vet has put him on an injection of MPA to help with the aggression. Our behaviouralist has no idea what has suddenly caused the problems (no change other then the fosters coming and going but that was happening before the aggression started) Opinions please? Yes, we had the problem. Harry started attacking Lola, the dog who he had lived with without a drama for 7 years. He also growled at my husband and I - all for no apparent reason. It had never happened before. I took him to the vet, he had neck pain and a pupil that was slow to react to light. I made the hard decision to PTS for a number of reasons - if I separated him, he would be miserable. I wasn't going to risk anything happening to my kids or to Lola. He wasn't himself anymore, so I had doubts about his quality of life. We could have investigated further, but the outcome was unlikely to change. Good luck with him, it's a very difficult situation to be in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everythings Shiny Posted January 28, 2011 Author Share Posted January 28, 2011 I'm not frightened of him at all.... in my line of work, getting bitten is a daily occurrence So far on his own he seems okay, he does seem a little down but I'll be keeping an eye on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwenneth1 Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 I know low testosterone can cause irritability in people. Just find it a curious co-incidence that when I re-read posts (properly!) it was mentioned since he was desexed? I've personally not heard of that in a dog, the dogs that I've had have actually settle more after desexing. ?? Maybe some DOL contributors will have some great input regarding this. Transient neuro (or pain)?? I know when my old girl started to act 'funny' every know and then (as in vague and irritable with other dogs more than usual). I took her to the vet which was a physical exam, but to be fair when I took her, she was perfectly fine for a 12 year old. For me to describe "vagueness and occasional unsteadiness going up the steps" was probably not a lot to go on, considering she was mildly arthritic. It was when she started to have seizures that it was found to be because of a previously undiagnosed lesion on the brain. Then your vet would have covered all those bases, I'm just speculating about the mystery of it all... If he was a stable and reliable dog before for a long time, there has to be a source to all this.... You poor things... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everythings Shiny Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 Things have gone from bad to worse. Yesterday D killed a pet duck - not totally his fault, not sure what exactly happened, but D managed to get hold of it and dragged Drakey into his yard and was munching when I got home from work. I think we only have one option left and it's not something I want to do, but to keep my other pets safe, i think it's now time to PTS - as much as it hurts me to say it.... I need to put my other animals first ;) RIP Drakey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remarkabull Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Such a gut wrenching decision to make. I've had to do it myself and it really sucks, but like you said if it is for the safety of other pets then it's either that or get rid of the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Sorry about Drakey- but killing/eating a duck/chook/guinea, is something a lot of our dogs would do/have done, given the opportunity - however they do not have the behaviours shown by D, which , to me, are more worrying. ;) Thinking of you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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