Dogs Operated On, Then Killed

[W Sibs]

I don't have an issue with this at all. They were going to die anyway, and if those dogs can help vets became better vets then so be it.

There are some dogs I've met that PTS is the best thing for them. They are sooo miserable and so far from saving, that it's cruel to keep them alive.

I'm donating Charlie's body to science when he passes. Hopefully they can learn as much as they can from him so they can have a better understand of the disease, and who know? He could help future dogs/animals or even human who has the same disease as him.

Logic part of me knows it a good thing but the other part (emotion part) tears up every time I think about it.

[Andisa]

That's a very fair point. And of course I would rather dogs be in doggy heaven than live a miserable life. I just don't see why they can't live happy lives. Why is it so hard for shelters and everywhere else to make it a happy living situation for them.

Because right now they don't have infinite time, space or funds. Could you fit a never ending supply of dogs in your house?

Leelaa - perhaps you need to come in to the real world - you have been in laalaa land for too long...

Reality is there is not enough space and funds for housing unwanted animals for the rest of their lives - who do you expect to have this responsibility? Do you really think all the unwanted animals are going to live in harmony together?

Real world sweetheart...it's just not possible...

How rude is your post. Seriously!

In the real world, babies die and people starve to death. In the real world women get raped and children are forced into prostitution. In the real world everyone dies. But that doesn't mean everyone has to or wants to say "this is reality and I must accept it".

Leelaa may not share your thoughts on euthansia or on practising veterinary science on animals that are alive, but she certainly sounds to me that she understands it happens and it is reality.

I have been called worse Anne - seriously - no one likes the idea of killing animals but we must be realistic here. As you know there are thousands of animals who are simply not wanted, until there is a better solution to the masses of unwanted pets then this practice will stay in place. Anyone who tries to house unwanted animals on their own are called animal hoarders - many start out with good intentions but soon end up well over their heads.

The real world sucks big time - never said it didn't..

Your post was condescending and rude. Telling someone they have been in 'laalaa land' for too long and using terms such as sweetheart are not part of the debate. Wise up and learn the word "apology".

- gee and I thought I was being nice...a little sarcastic perhaps, however I don't feel the need for an apology for what I have written.

[Are You Serious Jo]

The pound I think was happy to keep sourcing us with dogs, but the protesters were making their lives hell by camping at the pound and abusing staff members (or so I was told).

Ignorant bleeding hearts are the cause of a lot of trouble, that is why people here pull others up when they act without any facts and on emotion. Real world things get screwed up by people living in lalaland.

[poodlefan]

I don't have an issue with this at all. They were going to die anyway, and if those dogs can help vets became better vets then so be it.

There are some dogs I've met that PTS is the best thing for them. They are sooo miserable and so far from saving, that it's cruel to keep them alive.

I'm donating Charlie's body to science when he passes. Hopefully they can learn as much as they can from him so they can have a better understand of the disease, and who know? He could help future dogs/animals or even human who has the same disease as him.

Logic part of me knows it a good thing but the other part (emotion part) tears up every time I think about it.

Good on you. When an animal is dies, IMO you recognise the moment when it isn't "them" any more, but simply the place they once resided. Charlie will have moved on.

If others can benefit from donating Charlie's body to science, then that's an enduring legacy by which to remember him.

None of us wants our pets to die. But a bit of foward thinking helps prepare for what do do when the time comes.

Edited May 5, 2011 by poodlefan

[oakway]

The pound I think was happy to keep sourcing us with dogs, but the protesters were making their lives hell by camping at the pound and abusing staff members (or so I was told).

Ignorant bleeding hearts are the cause of a lot of trouble, that is why people here pull others up when they act without any facts and on emotion. Real world things get screwed up by people living in lalaland.

True, so true.

[~Anne~]

The pound I think was happy to keep sourcing us with dogs, but the protesters were making their lives hell by camping at the pound and abusing staff members (or so I was told).

Ignorant bleeding hearts are the cause of a lot of trouble, that is why people here pull others up when they act without any facts and on emotion. Real world things get screwed up by people living in lalaland.

True, so true.

And petty thinkers who lack empathy lead lack lustre lives oakway.

Get back to the debate instead of trying to score points. Good grief.

[poodlefan]

Forget it.

Edited May 5, 2011 by poodlefan

[~Anne~]

Cadavers are greyhounds donated by trainers who we euthanase, or they did come to use live from pounds - when we then assessed who was rehomable and who wasn't.

The ethics board has now recommended that the dogs are euthanased before transport, so I'm not sure what will happen to our adoption program

The pound I think was happy to keep sourcing us with dogs, but the protesters were making their lives hell by camping at the pound and abusing staff members (or so I was told).

Uni knew we'd have to stop using dogs within the next year or so, but the rug has been pulled out from underneath us way earlier than we expected (ie. no transition period - one week we'd have dogs, the next it was pigs).

Adoption program? Did the Uni actually run this? Who did the assessing of the dogs to determine if they were candidates for re-homing? Sounds fascinating. I didn't realise they branched out in such a way. It is sad that the program was stopped, at least from an education viewpoint.

Edited May 5, 2011 by ~Anne~

[oakway]

The pound I think was happy to keep sourcing us with dogs, but the protesters were making their lives hell by camping at the pound and abusing staff members (or so I was told).

Ignorant bleeding hearts are the cause of a lot of trouble, that is why people here pull others up when they act without any facts and on emotion. Real world things get screwed up by people living in lalaland.

True, so true.

And petty thinkers who lack empathy lead lack lustre lives oakway.

Get back to the debate instead of trying to score points. Good grief.

As a registered owner and breeder of pure bred dogs I believe I have every right to say what I think.

[~Anne~]

The pound I think was happy to keep sourcing us with dogs, but the protesters were making their lives hell by camping at the pound and abusing staff members (or so I was told).

Ignorant bleeding hearts are the cause of a lot of trouble, that is why people here pull others up when they act without any facts and on emotion. Real world things get screwed up by people living in lalaland.

True, so true.

And petty thinkers who lack empathy lead lack lustre lives oakway.

Get back to the debate instead of trying to score points. Good grief.

As a registered owner and breeder of pure bred dogs I believe I have every right to say what I think.

What has that to do with this topic?

You contribution to this thread has been nothing but petty point scoring so far. The topic is "Dogs being operated on, then killed".

[SwaY]

Dogs being breed to operate on then being PTS = Wrong

Dogs due to be PTS being operated on, then PTS = It's sad, but there is something good coming from it - Better trained vets.

It's not like they are being inflicted with injuries and living in pain just so they can "fix" them - They are out cold and never wake up again.

[Staranais]

We've had this debate here at least once before. So I'm not going to read through the entire thread before commenting, sorry.

As most of you know I'm in my final year of veterinary science, which means that if all goes according to plan, I'm going to be let loose on people's pets in about 6 months.

At my school, during our course, we dissect dead dogs from the pound (and other animals), do non-recovery procedures & surgeries on sheep, and do lots of recovery surgeries on dogs & other animals.

The non-recovery surgeries are sad, but I also found them very, very valuable. They're different to recovery surgeries as you can simulate emergencies or procedures you don't often get to do on someone's pets. They're different to dissections, too - operating on a cadaver is nothing like doing surgery on a real, live patient. Nothing like it. They just can't be compared.

I'm glad we didn't have to do these non-recovery surgeries on dogs as (rightly or wrongly), I personally find killing sheep far less upsetting than killing dogs. But ethically, so long as the dogs are destined to be PTS anyway, I see nothing wrong with people using them this way. It's no more painful for them, and no more scary for them, than being PTS in a regular way.

If you're angry about this, I'd say save your anger for the people who are responsible for the dogs being abandoned in the pound in the first place. It would be a great day if we could no longer do this due to lack of unwanted dogs in pounds.

[Sheridan]

Having just performed my first live surgery on a pig (because UQ is no longer able to source dogs) on Tuesday I can tell everyone who hasn't performed surgery that it is TOTALLY 100% different to performing it on cadavers - which we do as well.

I hate doing the quotes thing but I have some points:

- our pig got some out loud thankyous as he slipped away, as well as being patted and stroked

- I was SO glad that it wasn't a recoverable surgery or the poor thing would have had a horrible peritonitis. It's so hard to learn how to pass things around, and hold instruments, stay sterile and manipulate tissues, especially when they move, contract, pulsate and bleed

- out of a group of 4 students 2 were anaesthetists and 2 surgeons, so we learned as much as possible from 1 animal.

- we only do 3 or 4 of these pracs so the number of animals used for this practice is as minimal as posisble.

- our facilities are one of the newest in Australia and the best according to some people i've talked to

- with a live animal you can SEE if you cut something you shouldn't. Or if what you ligated was done properly. If this happened on a recoverable animal maybe I wouldn't know how to stop it, and I'd just panic. I'd much rather those things happened with something that will never wake-up to feel post-op pain.

- PF - we didn't ever have a 'colony' of dogs. They came from the pound, we temperament assessed and placed some into an adoption program, and some were used for teaching.

This issue makes me furious as I would be before the vet surgeons board in a second if I came out of uni and was so inexperienced yet still expected to be able to perform a surgery where I take an ORGAN out of an animal (ie a spay) on day 1. There are 4 major blood vessels that can be cut and will lead to death if this is not done properly.

Thank you. I applaud your dedication and wish that some people would get a clue.

[oakway]

The pound I think was happy to keep sourcing us with dogs, but the protesters were making their lives hell by camping at the pound and abusing staff members (or so I was told).

Ignorant bleeding hearts are the cause of a lot of trouble, that is why people here pull others up when they act without any facts and on emotion. Real world things get screwed up by people living in lalaland.

True, so true.

And petty thinkers who lack empathy lead lack lustre lives oakway.

Get back to the debate instead of trying to score points. Good grief.

As a registered owner and breeder of pure bred dogs I believe I have every right to say what I think.

What has that to do with this topic?

You contribution to this thread has been nothing but petty point scoring so far. The topic is "Dogs being operated on, then killed".

Well I agree with it what more do you want. ????.

I live in the real world and have done so for many years.

It's a fact dogs die in the name of science and will continue to so.

[mr.mister]

Ahhh, the good old farm, it mist be bulging at the sides by now

Leelaa, until you have some practical solutions you shouldn't condemn others. Nobody likes the fact dogs are being PTS for being unwanted, you don't have the monopoly on that emotion, but you don't have an alternative.

I understand that completely and I don't have any practical solutions - I wish I did. I am not 'condemnin' them, at least I am not trying to. But it is in my opinion that they shouldn't be using live dogs to practice on. But I do understand that that is my opinion and am greatly outnumbered on this thread as to what is a suitable method to teach students.

Hi Leelaa,

I completely understand where you're coming from - I had much the same mentality when I was younger. Euthanasia of healthy animals is something that greatly upsets me, I've cried quite a lot over it over the years. As it is though, it is happening in the masses, with no end in sight. The very best we can do is attempt to make acceptable lemonade out of the sourest of lemons. This can be done a number of ways, and one is to give meaning to the death of the poor souls who have run out of chances.

[Bartok]

I personally couldnt operate on a live animal and then put it down.

Especially it it were pregnant or a puppy

I understand in order for the students to learn their craft that they need

be able to have animals, but with so many dogs being PTS daily surely

there is enough of them that they can use decesased bodies.

I guess I just have my doubts that the pound really cares or not about if

the dogs get rehomed or go to rescue or if they are just happy to palm them

off to the university

[Leelaa17]

The pound I think was happy to keep sourcing us with dogs, but the protesters were making their lives hell by camping at the pound and abusing staff members (or so I was told).

Ignorant bleeding hearts are the cause of a lot of trouble, that is why people here pull others up when they act without any facts and on emotion. Real world things get screwed up by people living in lalaland.

True, so true.

As Anne said earlier on, I find it quite offensive that you say I am living in 'laalaa land'. I am as aware as anyone else on here of what happens. And how dare you say I am ignorant? I know EXACTLY what happens in the 'real world', I'm a journalist for Christ's sake. I see it all.

And, personally, I think you have absolutely NO right to 'pull others up' when they act without facts or emotion, and should I note that I am not 'acting' in any way, shape or form? I am simply expressing my opinion which is different to yours.

Grow up. Not everyone has the same opinions as you, and not everyone will agree with you. And THAT IS OK!!!!! People are allowed to have 'bleeding hearts'.

And what bull... real world things get screwed up by people living in lala land. What an absolute crock.

I think things get screwed up by IGNORANT and IRRESPONSIBLE people, who are UNWILLING to learn more about a subject. Before I do things, I research. However when I have an opinion i would LIKE TO express it freely without being cut down and frankly, INSULTED, by others who have no clue about their experiences, profession and anything else that might be of ANY knowledge to them.

Why don't you try and NOT 'pull people up' (I absolutely CANNOT believe you said that...) and actually LET them express their opinions. You don't have to agree with them (I sure as hell don't agree with some of the stuff you say) but you can RESPECT their opinions and their BLEEDING HEARTS and move the eff on.

Gosh.

[poodlefan]

I personally couldnt operate on a live animal and then put it down.

Especially it it were pregnant or a puppy

I understand in order for the students to learn their craft that they need

be able to have animals, but with so many dogs being PTS daily surely

there is enough of them that they can use decesased bodies.

I guess I just have my doubts that the pound really cares or not about if

the dogs get rehomed or go to rescue or if they are just happy to palm them

off to the university

I hope reading the views expressed by vet students here causes those who hold this view to reflect on it a little.

[Bartok]

I personally couldnt operate on a live animal and then put it down.

Especially it it were pregnant or a puppy

I understand in order for the students to learn their craft that they need

be able to have animals, but with so many dogs being PTS daily surely

there is enough of them that they can use decesased bodies.

I guess I just have my doubts that the pound really cares or not about if

the dogs get rehomed or go to rescue or if they are just happy to palm them

off to the university

I hope reading the views expressed by vet students here causes those who hold this view to reflect on it a little.

I dont need to reflect on how I feel about it

Just because I dont agree with something doesnt mean I dont

understand it

And I read what was written

[poodlefan]

As Anne said earlier on, I find it quite offensive that you say I am living in 'laalaa land'. I am as aware as anyone else on here of what happens. And how dare you say I am ignorant? I know EXACTLY what happens in the 'real world', I'm a journalist for Christ's sake. I see it all.

I've yet to read a report written by any mainstream journalist that provided a balanced, factually based view of an issue that gave equal coverage to all facets of a situation. The report that triggered this thread is a case in point.

No offence Leela but if you've seen PTS day at a pound or how poorly some unwanted dogs are warehoused and treated, I wonder why you think allowing veterinary students to hone their craft on live dogs destined to be PTS is so much worse.

Edited May 5, 2011 by poodlefan