Dogs Operated On, Then Killed

[Leelaa17]

I personally couldnt operate on a live animal and then put it down.

Especially it it were pregnant or a puppy

I understand in order for the students to learn their craft that they need

be able to have animals, but with so many dogs being PTS daily surely

there is enough of them that they can use decesased bodies.

I guess I just have my doubts that the pound really cares or not about if

the dogs get rehomed or go to rescue or if they are just happy to palm them

off to the university

I hope reading the views expressed by vet students here causes those who hold this view to reflect on it a little.

I dont need to reflect on how I feel about it

Just because I dont agree with something doesnt mean I dont

understand it

And I read what was written

[~Anne~]

Discussions like this always end up the same. People act in troll like manner by using emotive words (the term 'bleeding hearts' springs to mind) and no-one can accept that people have differing levels of objectivity and empathy. Being too objective can be just as dangerous.

Objectifying deliberately is a convenient method of avoiding the discomfort of empathy and assist people to avoid feelings of guilt or shame. Being too empathetic leads to situations where logic is lost and irrationality becomes the order of the day.

The debate is typical of this forum, and others like it though I guess.

[Leelaa17]

As Anne said earlier on, I find it quite offensive that you say I am living in 'laalaa land'. I am as aware as anyone else on here of what happens. And how dare you say I am ignorant? I know EXACTLY what happens in the 'real world', I'm a journalist for Christ's sake. I see it all.

I've yet to read a report written by any mainstream journalist that provided a balanced, factually based view of an issue that gave equal coverage to all facets of a situation. The report that triggered this thread is a case in point.

No offence Leela but if you've seen PTS day at a pound or how poorly some unwanted dogs are warehoused and treated, I wonder why you think allowing veterinary students to hone their craft on live dogs destined to be PTS is so much worse.

No offence taken Poodlefan. I'm not talking about vet students operating at all - my previous post was in general, although a little OT, about me 'living in the real world'. I DO NOT think it is worse, AT ALL. I think it is much better... BUT, that doesn't mean I don't like the euthanasia part of it.. I think I am starting to go around in circles... but its not really the vet students etc and the PTS, it is just the PTS I don't like. and yes yes I know that if something were to go wrong it would be bad post-op pain etc but I just... I just don't like it... BUT it doesn't mean that I don't understand why they do it, and it doesnt mean I am condemning them (as my very first post might have seemed) and it doesnt mean I think it is BAD PRACTICE... it just makes me cringe.

And if you ever read my reports you will KNOW that I am NOT a mainstream journalist. I am NOT a sensationalist and I refuse to publish anything that doesn't have any of the facts. I HATE shows like Today tonight etc where its all the same sensationalist s**t. I work for local papers, writing about nice community issues and then when the big stuff comes, I make sure it is factual and honest, because that's what the readers, like myself, deserve.

[poodlefan]

No offence taken Poodlefan. I'm not talking about vet students operating at all - my previous post was in general, although a little OT, about me 'living in the real world'. I DO NOT think it is worse, AT ALL. I think it is much better... BUT, that doesn't mean I don't like the euthanasia part of it.. I think I am starting to go around in circles... but its not really the vet students etc and the PTS, it is just the PTS I don't like. and yes yes I know that if something were to go wrong it would be bad post-op pain etc but I just... I just don't like it... BUT it doesn't mean that I don't understand why they do it, and it doesnt mean I am condemning them (as my very first post might have seemed) and it doesnt mean I think it is BAD PRACTICE... it just makes me cringe.

And if you ever read my reports you will KNOW that I am NOT a mainstream journalist. I am NOT a sensationalist and I refuse to publish anything that doesn't have any of the facts. I HATE shows like Today tonight etc where its all the same sensationalist s**t. I work for local papers, writing about nice community issues and then when the big stuff comes, I make sure it is factual and honest, because that's what the readers, like myself, deserve.

I honestly doubt anyone does. Although I hadn't prior to this thread considered the fact that practising students botch things and that survival post surgery for the animal might not always a good option.

I'd like to see someone answer the question I posed in my first post here. Where is the harm in allowing this practice to continue? Anyone who argues that this process takes dogs lives had best point me in the direction of statistics that show that unwanted dogs aren't dying in this country in very high numbers.

Whether or not you agree with euthanasia or whether or not you could operate on a live animal and put it too sleep are not the key issues IMO. Whether or not you think vet students should be denied a learning experience that has been described here as invaluable is what folk might care to focus on.

UQ has been denied access to animals but guess what - dogs are still dying. The only difference now is that UQ graduates do their lessons on pigs. Our pets will be the first live dogs they operate on. Goody.

Edited May 5, 2011 by poodlefan

[Staranais]

I don't like the PTS either, Leela. But attacking it at this end is the wrong end.

I'd be very, very against this if the dogs were being bred & raised in order to be used this way. But if these dogs don't get used by the uni, that won't save them - they'll still get PTS at the pound. The problem is with the dogs ending up unwanted at the pound in the first place. Stopping the vet students using them before or after they are PTS just stops their deaths doing any good at all.

Incidentally, are the people who really dislike this just as angry/upset about the vet students doing non recovery procedures on sheep and pigs? Sheep and pigs are PTS all the time on farms for fairly arbitrary reasons (in fact, of course, most pigs and sheep are bred only in order to be slaughtered!) Using these animals instead of dogs is perhaps one way for vet students to get most of the benefits, while keeping the public happy. And as I said, I was far happier using sheep than I would have been using dogs.

[OSoSwift]

I have no issue with live dogs being used that are then euthed - or woken up and rehomed as deemed suitable.

I think it is a very important part of veterinary student training.

I think there are worse things than euthanasia. I have held and been there for the euthanasia of many healthy dogs who people have dumped in pounds, or left there because it will cost them money to get it out, they then go and get a new 'free to good home" dog or puppy because it costs less.

I know when those dogs are euthanased they can no longer be abused, roam the steets and all the dangers that come with that, they cannot be starved, abandoned or ignored. I guess working in the veterinary industry for so many years may mean I look at things differently, but there are quite a few surgeries and procedures I would rather euthanase my dog than have performed on them.

In a perfect world it wouldn't be an issue but unfortunately humans have a long way to go.

[Diva]

I'd rather the dogs weren't going to be pts at all, but they are. I'd rather newly graduated vets never operated alone, but they do. If these dogs are going to die anyway and the operations will not be allowed to cause them pain, on balance I agree with vet students learning their craft on them - carefully and with respect.

It's hideous, but no more so than a pts of any healthy dog in any pound. I have a concern about it desensitising the students, but the post earlier about the op on the pig showed it doesn't have to, they can and do know what the poor dog has given them, and given to other pets and their owners too.

[Are You Serious Jo]

And I don't know how you'd learn to diganose various diseases - don't they do that through blood tests, x-rays and other tests? They don't do surgeries to 'diagnose' diseases do they?

And I don't know how you'd learn to diganose various diseases - don't they do that through blood tests, x-rays and other tests? They don't do surgeries to 'diagnose' diseases do they?

sometimes they do, blood tests etc don't always show/tell the whole story. Sometimes animals are operated on for a look see. I imagine it's not done as often now as it has been in the past as technology has improved in leaps and bounds.

Ah fair enough. I didn't know thought it was all blood tests etc.

I think it's fairly clear that you don't know a whole lot about veterinary practices. Perhaps you've been lucky enough never to have a dog be sick or injured at all. Maybe you should spend a day at a vet surgery because thus far your comments are pretty bloody insensitive whether or not they're about dogs or people.

I BEG your pardon? My God.

Have I EVER claimed to have ANY idea on vet practices? NO. I will happily say I know absolutely NOTHING about vet practices and what happens etc. I only know what people tell me. And I am extremely lucky to not have any serious illness or injury happen to my pets (although there HAS been injury and illness - just not serious) and I always go into the vet and ask a million questions because I don't know anything about it. I am a journalist. Not a vet.

And second of all - I would really like you to show me which comments I have made that are insensitive? That was NEVER my intention. And I don't think ANY of my comments have been insensitive? So I have absolutely no idea what you're going on about?

These are your posts saying that you are ignorant of the facts behind vet practices. As a journalist I'd expect that you understand what the definition of ignorant is and not take it as an insult. It has a specific meaning.

My objection to people influencing decisions when they are ignorant of the facts stand, it does real damage.

[oakway]

As Anne said earlier on, I find it quite offensive that you say I am living in 'laalaa land'. I am as aware as anyone else on here of what happens. And how dare you say I am ignorant? I know EXACTLY what happens in the 'real world', I'm a journalist for Christ's sake. I see it all.

I've yet to read a report written by any mainstream journalist that provided a balanced, factually based view of an issue that gave equal coverage to all facets of a situation. The report that triggered this thread is a case in point.

No offence Leela but if you've seen PTS day at a pound or how poorly some unwanted dogs are warehoused and treated, I wonder why you think allowing veterinary students to hone their craft on live dogs destined to be PTS is so much worse.

I have to agree with you poodlefan.

It has nothing to do with what a journalist thinks or writes originally. Having worked for a new paper and radio station I know it has nothing to do with what the reporter, reports, it is more to do with what the EDITOR believes is best for the paper.

Fact is there are to many dogs in pounds to keep and euthanasia is the most commonly used method of disposal after science has taken what it deems necessary.

The most important thing to remember is, that through these dogs knowledge is gaind that will be of help to the vets and dogs of the future so that the lives of these dogs may be saved. end of story.

[Flick_Mac]

Anne - I think the lady who runs the whole centre is a qualified behaviourist (and very experienced) and she basically has a team who assess(ed) the dogs as they came off the pound truck. Any puppies were usually sent to the RSPCA as they go to homes quickly, and sick, aggressive, unrehomable (ie owners stated they wanted euth) were euthanased. Any dogs that they felt were rehabilitatable (if that's a word!) were put into non-invasive trials or kept as part of our 'colony' of dogs that eventually are rehomed. They get used in pracs such as physical exams, radiography etc - and our interaction with them is part of their environmental enrichment. They are also given training while they're with us and rehomed to make room for another pup.

Bartok - as I said before I've just done my first surgery with live tissue and it's COMPLETELY different. I would not feel comfortable at all doing my first live surgery on a dog that had to go out and run around and live it's life.

PF - We do actually do recovery surgeries before being let loose on pets. We help with desexing for the AWL and RSPCA (I believe) and I also (think, don't know 100%) that people can get very cheap 'student spays' for dogs which are 100% supervised. So we will have had some recovery experience, even if it's only a tiny amount!

[poodlefan]

PF - We do actually do recovery surgeries before being let loose on pets. We help with desexing for the AWL and RSPCA (I believe) and I also (think, don't know 100%) that people can get very cheap 'student spays' for dogs which are 100% supervised. So we will have had some recovery experience, even if it's only a tiny amount!

Anything's better than nothing. I know most junior vets serve a practical period of "residency" under the guidance of more senior vets in a practice. Most, but not all.

[Flick_Mac]

Yep - but it's not 0.... I'd be very very nervous if it was!

[Staranais]

It's not so much a formal residency, as informal mentoring - most vets that employ new grads are pretty good at being there to give you guidance when you're doing things like a new surgery or you have an unusual or confusing case.

Having said that, your boss isn't necessarily going to be there with you when you're the one rostered for after hours and a bloat or HBC comes in at 3am. And I have also heard complete horror stories such as new grads that were left completely alone in the clinic while the boss went away on holiday, in their first few weeks of practice, and just having to manage the best they could!

But overall, most practices are pretty good at supporting new grads.

[stormie]

Unfortunately, this sort of thing really is a fact of life to ensure our pets can have treatment.

There seems to be a lot more pressure in Vets to provide only the best care to our pets and get everything right first go, but I'm not sure how this is meant to happen when there is such an outcry in how they learn.

What about the dogs used in vaccine registration trials? We want vaccines to have a longer registration to protect our own dogs from over vaccination, but what about the dogs who have to be kept in isolation during the trial time and then given parvo virus? There are control dogs used in those studies who aren't lucky enough to get the vaccines, but still get given parvo. I'm sure their deaths are far worse than those used in non recovery surgeries.

I do understand why people can find it hard to accept and I appreciate that. But at the end of the day, putting an animal to sleep doesn't hurt and is not cruel. It's no different to putting them under GA for surgery which we would all do for our pets if they needed to, except that they just don't wake up.

[haven]

As someone who has seen an animal die because a Vet froze when the surgery he was performing went awry I support this practice if it is done humanely. It's certainly sad but operating on a live animal would have to be entirely different from operating on a cadaver in so many ways. The saddest part of it for me is that I bet, for some of these animals, the experience they have with these students is probably the most kindness and compassion they have ever been shown in their lives

I'm all for the practice of euthanising dog to stop when the surplus of dogs does, but if until then it is the only practical solution then at least some good can come from it!

[PeiPei]

As Anne said earlier on, I find it quite offensive that you say I am living in 'laalaa land'. I am as aware as anyone else on here of what happens. And how dare you say I am ignorant? I know EXACTLY what happens in the 'real world', I'm a journalist for Christ's sake. I see it all.

And, personally, I think you have absolutely NO right to 'pull others up' when they act without facts or emotion, and should I note that I am not 'acting' in any way, shape or form? I am simply expressing my opinion which is different to yours.

Grow up. Not everyone has the same opinions as you, and not everyone will agree with you. And THAT IS OK!!!!! People are allowed to have 'bleeding hearts'.

And what bull... real world things get screwed up by people living in lala land. What an absolute crock.

I think things get screwed up by IGNORANT and IRRESPONSIBLE people, who are UNWILLING to learn more about a subject. Before I do things, I research. However when I have an opinion i would LIKE TO express it freely without being cut down and frankly, INSULTED, by others who have no clue about their experiences, profession and anything else that might be of ANY knowledge to them.

Why don't you try and NOT 'pull people up' (I absolutely CANNOT believe you said that...) and actually LET them express their opinions. You don't have to agree with them (I sure as hell don't agree with some of the stuff you say) but you can RESPECT their opinions and their BLEEDING HEARTS and move the eff on.

Gosh.

Well said...Just because it is the 'real world' doesnt make it right or fair.

Sometimes a bleeding heart is far better than a heart made of stone.

I question if this university actually gets its dogs from pounds and if they only use the dogs that are unsuitable for re-homing???

I know I personally could never practise on any animal...I find the loss of any life very upsetting...

I condem BYB, puppy farms and pet shops selling pets and cant understand why something cant be put into place to stop them...

[haven]

I condem BYB, puppy farms and pet shops selling pets and cant understand why something cant be put into place to stop them...

Why? In all honesty, not being nasty, I think what you said is a good example of exactly why. A large percentage of the general public are focussed on the wrong issues and time and resources go into political point scoring and stopping practices like this instead of practices like that.

[Leelaa17]

And I don't know how you'd learn to diganose various diseases - don't they do that through blood tests, x-rays and other tests? They don't do surgeries to 'diagnose' diseases do they?

And I don't know how you'd learn to diganose various diseases - don't they do that through blood tests, x-rays and other tests? They don't do surgeries to 'diagnose' diseases do they?

sometimes they do, blood tests etc don't always show/tell the whole story. Sometimes animals are operated on for a look see. I imagine it's not done as often now as it has been in the past as technology has improved in leaps and bounds.

Ah fair enough. I didn't know thought it was all blood tests etc.

I think it's fairly clear that you don't know a whole lot about veterinary practices. Perhaps you've been lucky enough never to have a dog be sick or injured at all. Maybe you should spend a day at a vet surgery because thus far your comments are pretty bloody insensitive whether or not they're about dogs or people.

I BEG your pardon? My God.

Have I EVER claimed to have ANY idea on vet practices? NO. I will happily say I know absolutely NOTHING about vet practices and what happens etc. I only know what people tell me. And I am extremely lucky to not have any serious illness or injury happen to my pets (although there HAS been injury and illness - just not serious) and I always go into the vet and ask a million questions because I don't know anything about it. I am a journalist. Not a vet.

And second of all - I would really like you to show me which comments I have made that are insensitive? That was NEVER my intention. And I don't think ANY of my comments have been insensitive? So I have absolutely no idea what you're going on about?

These are your posts saying that you are ignorant of the facts behind vet practices. As a journalist I'd expect that you understand what the definition of ignorant is and not take it as an insult. It has a specific meaning.

My objection to people influencing decisions when they are ignorant of the facts stand, it does real damage.

Right. Fair enough. I do know what ignorant means, and after comparing the defiition of 'ignorant' and 'unknowing', they are pretty much the same. I guess I see ignorant as being someone who is UNWILLING to learn new things and learn more about the topics they don't know about, and I am always willing to learn new things. Whereas I always considered myself as 'unknowing', in my opinion, simply not know about something - but again, after reading the definition, I realise they are the same thing.

So I guess I am ignorant, but I do always try my best to learn new things, especially before I jump into a decision!! But I don't believe I am doing the real world harm by not knowing things, especially when I make the effort to learn! ;)

[RottnBullies]

The pound I think was happy to keep sourcing us with dogs, but the protesters were making their lives hell by camping at the pound and abusing staff members (or so I was told).

Ignorant bleeding hearts are the cause of a lot of trouble, that is why people here pull others up when they act without any facts and on emotion. Real world things get screwed up by people living in lalaland.

And Ignorant callous people cause a lot more trouble In this world!

I'm sick to death of hearing this pathetic phrase labelling people here who have opinions that differ, give It a rest

[poodlefan]

And Ignorant callous people cause a lot more trouble In this world!

I'm sick to death of hearing this pathetic phrase labelling people here who have opinions that differ, give It a rest

I dont' see how calling those who are on the other side ignorant and callous is any better. It's right up there with calling two people (or recently even one person ) who disagree with you "hyenas" or a mob.

Why people feel the need to personalise arguments beats me.