What Should The Breeder Do?

[Goofy]

And yet you don't know if the mother was scored or not even after your previous problems??

Sheesh! Boy, you guys are really picky. I am not looking for an argument.

It was discussed at the time. The answer was either:

Yes

or the bitch was an import, and too young but her parents were fine. I just can't remember exactly word for word what was said nine and a half months ago when I started to ask detailed questions.

Likewise, I also understand the initial response but now that I have provided additional information to provide a more complete picture, can we please get back to the two questions initially posed.... does the breeder have any responsibility, and if so, what should the breeder do?

EDIT:

Thanks to the above couple of posters for you constructive comments.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Goofy

[SwaY]

does the breeder have any responsibility, and if so, what should the breeder do?

In my opinion yes they have some level of responsibility, at this stage that is to support you and get to the bottom of how/why etc.

As to what they should do would depend on the outcome of the 2nd opinion - preferably by a specialist.

[SwaY]

And yet you don't know if the mother was scored or not even after your previous problems??

Sheesh! Boy, you guys are really picky. I am not looking for an argument.

It was discussed at the time. The answer was either:

Yes

or the bitch was an import, and too young but her parents were fine. I just can't remember exactly word for word what was said nine and a half months ago when I started to ask detailed questions.

For future reference - To young to score, but can be breed from - RUN A MILE!

All health testing should be done prior to a litter, for your breed they can not breed a bitch before she turns 2.

[Danois]

Re age for scoring vs breeding

As it was a giant breed, then a bitch cannot be breed until it is mature and thus would be able to be scored?

[Rebanne]

Likewise, I also understand the initial response but now that I have provided additional information to provide a more complete picture, can we please get back to the two questions initially posed.... does the breeder have any responsibility, and if so, what should the breeder do?

Really it doesn't matter what any one on a forum thinks, you can tell the breeder all the responses but they mean nothing. Just cause one person says they would refund etc and another says suck it up, it's all pointless. It's like asking how long is a piece of string. We have only heard your side, it's a faceless forum, no one knows what is really going on or how you really reared the dog.

[newfsie]

What a bummer for you and I feel really sad for you and your pup....I have giants and have had them since the eighties. As someone said there are many variables that can cause the problems you describe and that makes it no easier for you.

I had a young dog who ended up having multiple problems and when we looked through her lineage and parents it did not seem to come from there, we even checked full brother and sisiters. but my vet, who was extremely straight with me, told me it was most likely due to the fact that my then newfie pup ran with our working dogs at too young an age. I learned from that experience and keep mine fairly quiet, fit( but no bouncing around with other dogs, swimming every day) and lean. I am very strict with my feeding of my young dogs too and add Vit C, glucosamine/chondroitin, kelp, fish capsules and sardines. We also feed almost daily bones. No extra additive calcium and proper Giant food only when I fed dry, though I feed Raw now.

And so far the later newfies form the same breeder have done really well.

One tumble when young from some steps or out of a car can do a lot of damage in a young giant. even getting up and down the steps or in and out of the car. we carry ours in and out and have special steps for the car.

I am very careful as to how much to blame breeding, unless they are careless BYB's. hopefully your breeder has some health checks done, but even seeing the parents at their older age should tell you lots.

I hope your Breeder would be able to give you some advise, but that would also depend on how you would talk to him/her/ Some people can put a breeder off-side by the way they discuss the problem. putting them on the defensive. by choosing a giant, and I adore them, we have chosen some likely health problems. these do not always occur, but have a likely chance.

I would go and see a vet who was experienced in giant ortho. Our preventative meds for the four dogs we have do not even add up to The $100/month mentioned.

I also have my pups form day one on Private Insurance, just in case.

I hope you can get some help and support for you and your pup,

Also after reading your question again.......If you have purchased a pup from someone who had their dogs health checked/scored, I too am not sure if you can make the breeder responsible. I didn't, I thought it was just bad luck. Just like one of my other newfies died at seven from cancer.

I did however get a lot of support and advise from my breeder and we are still great friends.

Edited May 9, 2011 by newfsie

[Staranais]

Does the breeder have any responsibility?

Legally, I'd say probably not, although I'm not a lawyer. So far as I've seen, buying dogs is pretty much buyer beware.

Ethically, I think it depends on whether there was anything else they reasonably could have done to prevent the problem, and if there was anything else you could reasonably have done to prevent the problem.

Breeding a giant breed bitch who was too young to score does sound a bit worrying. But as someone else said, I guess it's possible that you did some things incorrectly too. Giant breeds, even well bred ones, generally do have some level of innate predisposition to joint problems. And sometimes these things just happen - they're no one's fault, just shitty luck.

[KOE]

Poor you poor dog.

Hope the dog can live a reasonable pain free life.

[dancinbcs]

If the dog was bred from parents with good hip and elbow scores then I really don't see how the breeder could be held responsible? Unfortunately HD and ED are known problems with large breed dogs and breeding dogs with good scores is still no guarantee sadly.

It would be nice if the breeder was sympathetic and perhaps offered a replacement pup for showing or performance if that is what you wanted to do, but they have absolutely no obligation to do so.

Well said.

All giant breeds should have acceptable hip and elbow scores before breeding and any problems in the releatives should have been discussed before you bought the puppy, especially as you already know the breed. After all that, bad hips and elbows can still happen sometimes. No breeder can guarantee that it won't happen and diet is such a big factor that they cannot control. The diet you fed to another of the same breed may not have suited this particular puppy.

Even with smaller breeds HD and OCD can crop up out of nowhere. I once saw a GSD with hips so bad he could hardly walk and every dog on his 4 generation pedigree had an A grade for hips. Sometimes these things happen and it it no one's fault. With hips and elbows the breeder can only breed with animals with good scores and cross their fingers that the puppies don;t have any problems.

If however the breeder has bred from dogs that have not been scored, have bad scores or it is line breeding to a dog with bad scores then they have a liability to take the dog back and refund.

[Paptacular!]

I don't know a great deal about giant breeds, but IMO if the bitch was not old enough to be scored, she shouldn't have been bred from.

[Goofy]

Thanks to the last few posters for their comments.

I just had a look at the Registration. The bitch was not an import, so it was scored. (I was looking at two possible litters at the time so the other litter must have had the import.) And the breeder has been scoring for many generations.

Sorry for the confusion, but its all a bit upsetting. (My previous one went to doggy heaven less than a year ago and this brings back all the painful memories.)

[poochmad]

What a bummer for you and I feel really sad for you and your pup....I have giants and have had them since the eighties. As someone said there are many variables that can cause the problems you describe and that makes it no easier for you.

I had a young dog who ended up having multiple problems and when we looked through her lineage and parents it did not seem to come from there, we even checked full brother and sisiters. but my vet, who was extremely straight with me, told me it was most likely due to the fact that my then newfie pup ran with our working dogs at too young an age. I learned from that experience and keep mine fairly quiet, fit( but no bouncing around with other dogs, swimming every day) and lean. I am very strict with my feeding of my young dogs too and add Vit C, glucosamine/chondroitin, kelp, fish capsules and sardines. We also feed almost daily bones. No extra additive calcium and proper Giant food only when I fed dry, though I feed Raw now.

And so far the later newfies form the same breeder have done really well.

One tumble when young from some steps or out of a car can do a lot of damage in a young giant. even getting up and down the steps or in and out of the car. we carry ours in and out and have special steps for the car.

I am very careful as to how much to blame breeding, unless they are careless BYB's. hopefully your breeder has some health checks done, but even seeing the parents at their older age should tell you lots.

I hope your Breeder would be able to give you some advise, but that would also depend on how you would talk to him/her/ Some people can put a breeder off-side by the way they discuss the problem. putting them on the defensive. by choosing a giant, and I adore them, we have chosen some likely health problems. these do not always occur, but have a likely chance.

I would go and see a vet who was experienced in giant ortho. Our preventative meds for the four dogs we have do not even add up to The $100/month mentioned.

I also have my pups form day one on Private Insurance, just in case.

I hope you can get some help and support for you and your pup,

Also after reading your question again.......If you have purchased a pup from someone who had their dogs health checked/scored, I too am not sure if you can make the breeder responsible. I didn't, I thought it was just bad luck. Just like one of my other newfies died at seven from cancer.

I did however get a lot of support and advise from my breeder and we are still great friends.

Excellent post!

So sorry about your bad news, it must be heartbreaking.

I agree with what others have said to tell your breeder, if only to let them know for future breeding or to research into the issue. If I was the breeder, I would definitely want to know.

[KOE]

Thanks to the last few posters for their comments.

I just had a look at the Registration. The bitch was not an import, so it was scored. (I was looking at two possible litters at the time so the other litter must have had the import.) And the breeder has been scoring for many generations.

Sorry for the confusion, but its all a bit upsetting. (My previous one went to doggy heaven less than a year ago and this brings back all the painful memories.)

It is sad but it happens as long as you can keep your pooch comfortable and pain free. I hate the way people say take it back and get a refund but for people that actually love their animals and dont think they are a disposable chattel that is not a possibility.

I feel though that on telling the breeder the problem and they were actually interested they would offer some sort of compensation even if it were only to offer to replace the dog, without wanting the one you already have back.

[Erny]

If I was the breeder after a second opinion at a vet of my choice I would want the puppy returned and you would receive a full refund of purchase price but it is complicated especially in giant breeds as OCD is environmental, diet and exercise related also, hereditary is only one factor.

That's easier said than done unless you take out the new owner's emotional investment.

ETA: What would the breeder be likely to do with a pup with those problems that the owner would not do?

Edited May 9, 2011 by Erny

[Lyla]

For future reference - To young to score, but can be breed from - RUN A MILE!

All health testing should be done prior to a litter, for your breed they can not breed a bitch before she turns 2.

Re age for scoring vs breeding

As it was a giant breed, then a bitch cannot be breed until it is mature and thus would be able to be scored?

I don't know a great deal about giant breeds, but IMO if the bitch was not old enough to be scored, she shouldn't have been bred from.

Agree with the above. A giant breed should not be bred from until well after the age it is old enough to be scored.

There are so many variables with hip and elbow problems, that it is difficult to suggest what should happen from here. No blame can be laid on the breeder if she is breeding from dogs with good hips and elbows. Sometimes it is just bad luck. I had a dog who's parents had excellent scores, yet my dog came back with double the breed avg score. It was really devastating at the time, so I contacted the breeder to find out if any of the siblings in the litter had issues. His brother had a near perfect score, so in my mind that helped me rule out that it was an issue caused by the breeding. Maybe you might be able to find out if any other pups from the same litter have issues. It might help with peace of mind at least.

[KOE]

If I was the breeder after a second opinion at a vet of my choice I would want the puppy returned and you would receive a full refund of purchase price but it is complicated especially in giant breeds as OCD is environmental, diet and exercise related also, hereditary is only one factor.

That's easier said than done unless you take out the new owner's emotional investment.

ETA: What would the breeder be likely to do with a pup with those problems that the owner would not do?

And what would happen to the returned dog, I suppose I can guess.

[cowanbree]

If I was the breeder after a second opinion at a vet of my choice I would want the puppy returned and you would receive a full refund of purchase price but it is complicated especially in giant breeds as OCD is environmental, diet and exercise related also, hereditary is only one factor.

That's easier said than done unless you take out the new owner's emotional investment.

ETA: What would the breeder be likely to do with a pup with those problems that the owner would not do?

Given that this dog has been sold on the main register I would assume this is a show dog in a show home which complicates matters. If it was a pet home I would most likely offer to let them keep the puppy but only if I felt they would do what was in the dogs best interests no matter what that was. It is my right to ask for the dog back before refunding anything.

I have had a pet puppy diagnosed with bad hips. In my case the dog was grossly overweight and had been allowed to race up and down stairs from a very young age. I did give them another puppy but if I was being honest I seriously considered not as there was no history of it and the parents were hips scored. I felt it was at least in part due to owners negligence. Interestingly enough the later dog died of a brain tumour at the age of 9yrs and they said we have checked with the vet and they don't think it is hereditary. I am not God here, all I can do is health test and everything else is out of my control.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

What do you want? It's always best to know that before you go in to a discussion.

Are you prepared to send the pup back or have you formed an emotional bond with it?

If this was me, I would tell the breeder what my vet has found, and suggest that I get a second opinion from a vet experienced with giant breeds or an orthopedic specialist. I'd do that because our show dogs are also companions. Others might simply send the dog back without further ado.

Once I had that second opinion, I'd be in a better position to decide what to do. My personal view is that shit happens. If you don't want another dog from the breeder then I think you have to cut your losses if they don't offer a refund. If you are prepared to get another dog from the breeder and the second opinion supports your vet's diagnosis then you can negotiate from there.

[poodlefan]

And what would happen to the returned dog, I suppose I can guess.

If its quality of life is going to be compromised and its in pain, what would you do with the dog?

Friend of mine (GR breeder) had a pup develop OCD at 6 months. Despite advice to the contrary, the pup had been allowed to run with the new owners Border Collie from Day 1 - it ran long and hard all day every day. My friend gave a refund, took the pup back, had it OCD operated on and rehomed it. However, the pups prospects for a good life weren't in doubt.

Way too many really fat pups out there too - with owners thinking their condition is 'normal'.

Edited May 9, 2011 by poodlefan

[sandgrubber]

Very sad for you. Poor pup. Fingers crossed that it turns out to be poor positioning on the X-ray or a vet who doesn't know their stuff.

I imported a pup -- main register, intended for show and stud work. Sire and dam and some generations back had good hip/elbow scores. He turned out to be a stunning dog, but unfortunately had bad hips (total score 23) and was rehomed as a pet with a family who understood he needed to be kept lean.

I had discussed health guarantees with the breeder before buying the pup and she said she doesn't give them. I chalked it up as bad luck.

In answer to your question . . . with unpredictable and non-preventable defects, the breeder has as much responsibility as they choose to take. Most breeders have a consistent policy and stick to it. In my opinion, that is what they should do . . . and they should communicate the policy to puppy buyers. But most of what breeders should do is on the prevention side . . . . careful selection of sire and dam, clear care instructions to puppy buyers.

Occasionally someone gets a good lawyer and forces a breeder to take more responsibility. If a lot of cases go legal or highly public, I can see the animal rights types starting campaigns to end the breeding of giant breeds . . .