My Dog Hates Children

[persephone]

the majority of westies do not do well with young kids as they're easily annoyed, ie: they don't put up with crap from kids. Most westies I know don't do well with kids yelling/running/screaming around them.

Must admit to only ever known 2 westies .. but both were fine with kids, big and little . They were brought up with them ...

minyvlz

a problem that doesn't really matter to me

It doesn't?

My Westie will bark ferociously at young children, no biting or anything, just barking non-stop at them. How do I correct this? He's not aggressive but when he scares little girls and makes them cry, I am at a loss as to what to do.

If you can not take your dog/leave your dog without him reacting to kids .. he needs help. It is unrealistic to keep him away from any contact with kids for the next 10 - 12 years , isn't it? Is it perhaps also unfair on the dog ..allowing his fear or whatever to rule his life, and perhaps stop him from going out and enjoying all sorts of things ?.....not to mention the possibility of him being in trouble if someone gets very scared one day

He is still only a youngster .. and his behaviour can quite possibly be changed without too much hassle

[Terujo]

Could you be outside with him and have him on a lead and when they pass by ( maybe school times?) and check him when he goes to look at them? or call him away and give him a treat when he comes away and focuses back on you? Play with him when they are going past so having them go past is not a bad thing.

Punishing him for looking at kids will not fix the problem. That really is bad advice. If you were scared of something, would you be less scared if someone smacked you over the head every time you saw the thing you were scared of?

Hahahahahaha...you made me laugh! Where did this say that the dog was to be punished??? lol check means just that check, like a gentle wiggle of a lead to check the dog, not choke or what did you liken it to?? hitting on the head

if you reread you will clearly see that my suggestion was to give the dog a treat- to distract the dog from the stressor(child). I'm not sure how giving a dog a treat can be confused with punishment but there you have it! Checking a dog when saying its name in an excited happy tone of voice, in my experience is not going to make my dogs think they are being punished- unless of course my dogs are super smart!

[Terujo]

Although this most likely doesn't have anything to do with your westie specifically. But I've been around westies all my life and from what other westie owners have said and what ive experienced, the majority of westies do not do well with young kids as they're easily annoyed, ie: they don't put up with crap from kids. Most westies I know don't do well with kids yelling/running/screaming around them.

My family has been involved with westies for almost 30 years now.

Westies love playing rough with dogs and HUMAN adults and teens...but when it comes to younger kids around 5-10 years old they're too rough and a 5-10 year old doesn't really know the limits there they can easily push a westie too far. Where as someone who is older and more experienced with dogs will know how far they can play rough with a westie.

So if all Westies are as such, I should just avoid having children come near him? I see people not let others pat their dogs too, spending a few hundred dollars on a behaviourist for a problem that doesn't really matter to me is a little out of my budget.

Not saying anything about the dog trainers listed on this thread because I have never met any of them, and they are probably amazing but just saying....as for dog behaviourists- you can get dog behaviourist certificates online.

I'm sure there are great ones out there but there are plenty of online courses too ;)

Dog training or obedience classes are a great suggestion. BUT I wouldnt be letting him near any children until you know it's all under control.

Edited September 24, 2011 by Terujo

[sheena]

I would really try the LAT...not a quick fix, but I have my dog on it ATM because she is reactive to motion (she's a border collie) & SWF's & I am over the top with joy the way she has improved. It also teaches your dog how to relax & take deep breaths. I have just bought Leslie's book & DVD "Control Unleashed" and am waiting impatiently for it to arrive Can't wait to see what else she has to offer with helping my girl.

It can be quick in some circumstances. I had Erik flipping out over children doing strange things a few months ago. Once I got my head around exactly how to use LAT, it only took a few weeks before he first offered a LAT when he saw some kids hitting the ground with a stick. No barking, no lunging, just looked calmly and looked back to me.

When you've read it, go join the CU_Dogs Yahoo list. Leslie McDevitt answers questions along with some other very experienced trainers that have been using CU. It has really added depth to my understanding of the whole program. I want to buy the foundation dvds, now.

Thanks for that Corvus...I will certainly join. What are the foundation DVD's you mentioned. I have the Foundation Fundamentals by Mary Ellen Barry. I have been mainly doing my LAT training while at trials as I get jeered at by some people at training as they don't understand & don't want to learn what I am doing. Fortunately my instructor understands & she is doing it with her JRT. At the last trial, I was hard pressed to get her to take her eyes off me...so I think I am having good success with her It will be interesting to see how she goes next week with the Grand Prix...at the Nationals I had trouble keeping her in her own ring

[dancinbcs]

Does this dog only bark at children passing the house or does he do it if out on a walk?

Some dogs are great guard dogs and will bark frantically at anyone passing their house but if taken outside the yard on a lead they are perfectly friendly. My last BC girl who passed away recently would not let anyone near the house unless she knew them well. The neighbours kids cutting through the edge of the front yard would send her into a frenzy at my front door but if I took her outside on a lead she was quite happy to be patted by them. She was also fine with everyone on breed stalls at Royals and pet expos.

If this dog is barking at kids it sees on walks then it is a serious matter and you need professional help with him.

[dancinbcs]

Double post

Edited September 25, 2011 by dancinbcs

[raineth]

Your dog is giving you a big warning sign, so best take it seriously if you don't get professional help for it it will most likely get worse, and you will have a dog that is at an increased likelihood of biting a kid - he is already at increased likelihood actually. Kids are part of society and you can't avoid them altogether. Its your responsibility as his owner to do your best to ensure your dog is not a hazard to other people.

Its also absolutely no fun for him to be afraid of things so you will be doing the right thing by him by addressing this problem

Every time I've seen someone ignore a warning sign in their dog, and not do anything about it, it has come back to bite them in a big way later on (pun intended). Don't let that happen in your case

[Red Fox]

Nekhbet - if this is a socialisation issue, which I think it is, then Craig A Murray might not be a good choice. My dogs went for obedience under one of their trainers and I was told that socialisation ended at 4 months. Dogs after 4 months cannot be helped/no need for socialisation after that was what I was told. Trainers wise, I contacted Jane Harper but she was too far for either of us to travel. Does anyone have any recommendations for trainers on the Gold Coast?

Sheena & Corvus - Thanks, I will look at using LAT.

Terujo & Tilly - He doesn't lunge or jump on them, just barks fiercely at them. My other dog loves children so I don't know why he's like that. Fear, perhaps? Thanks for the tips Terujo, I will make sure he gets a treat every time we see children.

Persephone - Thanks, I'm not sure why I haven't noticed it before though... I'm sure we've seen children on our daily walks. Last night we were having dinner so we tied the dogs to a pillar nearby and he started barking loudly whenever any children walked past. On previous occasions I recall sometimes he did bark at them, but other times when I'm right next to him he won't react at all to children. If he really only barks at children when I'm not with him, what can I do?

Don't leave him alone around children/strangers. Pretty simple really...

[minyvlz]

persephone - No it doesn't really, not to the point of needing professional help. I don't recall having this problem earlier, and we must have met hundreds of children since he was 8 weeks. In any case, getting him to sit and focus helps. If I thought the problem was more serious I will definitely engage a behaviourist. My dog has completed basic obedience and will continue to undergo training (under Craig Murray's program anyway) so will definitely ask the trainer if she thinks we need private consultation. Am also looking at K9 Pro's distance programs. One question though - if someone, child or adult, gets scared by ferocious barking by dog on leash/in others' yard, what are we liable for?

Terujo - yes, he does go to Obedience, and that's why I asked for recommendations. He already goes to Obedience under Craig Murray's trainer. I have been monitoring him these few days on walks and he does not react to children when I am with him. Perhaps I might need to tie him up somewhere and watch his reaction to children again.

dancingbcs - I live in an apartment not on the ground floor so he doesn't 'see' children passing by. He doesn't react to children on walks but when he is tied up (occasionally while we have dinner outside, for example) he will bark relentlessly at them. He is happy to be patted while on lead (or maybe with me beside him) by children or adults.

raineth - Thank you for your reply. Does barking always mean they will bite? I have to admit I've never thought about it that way.

SecretKei - I think so too... probably means I have to tie him up somewhere secluded next time or dine somewhere pet-friendly...

It seems that he only has this problem with some children, not all. Children don't usually care about him as he is not as cute as my other dog. Perhaps he feels jealous but if that is the case, it is always going to happen as my other dog is a SWF.

Edited September 26, 2011 by minyvlz

[raineth]

persephone - No it doesn't really, not to the point of needing professional help. I don't recall having this problem earlier, and we must have met hundreds of children since he was 8 weeks. In any case, getting him to sit and focus helps. If I thought the problem was more serious I will definitely engage a behaviourist. My dog has completed basic obedience and will continue to undergo training (under Craig Murray's program anyway) so will definitely ask the trainer if she thinks we need private consultation. Am also looking at K9 Pro's distance programs. One question though - if someone, child or adult, gets scared by ferocious barking by dog on leash/in others' yard, what are we liable for?

raineth - Thank you for your reply. Does barking always mean they will bite? I have to admit I've never thought about it that way.

Hey

Barking doesn't always lead to a bite... But I assume that he is barking out of fear (there could be other reasons, but fear is most likely). Because he is afraid, he is barking to say "you (child) don't come near me... I am serious, keep away!"

It is his fear that is the problem, because it can lead to him thinking that he needs to defend himself; which can lead to a bite. Also left unchecked, what often happens is the fear gets more intense, and also starts to be generalised more.

Ideally we want him to see a kid and feel relaxed, that everything is o.k. So its a matter of changing his mindset. Because a dog that has relaxed happy feelings is much less likely to bite than one that is afraid

If you're seeing those people they should be able to help you out with firstly seeing why he is barking (whether it is fear-based) and changing his mindset and emotional reactions

[persephone]

Minyvlz yes, the fear component is what concerns me .. especially as you have now clarified that it mostly happens when he is tied up in a busy ish place. My guess is that he feels totally unprotected and insecure ..and so he tries to defend himself in the only way he can.

If it is fear aggression it really needs assessing and acting upon...as it can become more intense and more frequent.

[dancinbcs]

How big is the dog? Can you take a soft crate and crate him instead of tying him up so he feels secure. Lots of dogs become fearful or aggressive if tied up becaue they know they are not safe.

The other possibility is that he is just bored being tied up and barks at the children to get noticed. Without seeing the body language and hearing the bark, I don't know, but it is another possibility.

Either way it is not safe to leave a dog tied up in any public place unless you are with the dog. If a child does run at the dog and gets bitten it would be disasterous. Please don't put your dog at risk like that. If you have to go somewhere that the dog can't come, leave him at home or if there is a safe place to crate him, take a crate.

[Red Fox]

SecretKei - I think so too... probably means I have to tie him up somewhere secluded next time or dine somewhere pet-friendly...

No. You need to leave the dog in a secure place (ie crated in the car) or at home.

Barking doesn't always lead to a bite... But I assume that he is barking out of fear (there could be other reasons, but fear is most likely). Because he is afraid, he is barking to say "you (child) don't come near me... I am serious, keep away!"

It is his fear that is the problem, because it can lead to him thinking that he needs to defend himself; which can lead to a bite. Also left unchecked, what often happens is the fear gets more intense, and also starts to be generalised more.

Yes.

Deal with it now and deal with it correctly. Don't leave it until the dog is an adult and out of control.

Internet forums are not the place for advice on fear aggression (which can't be diagnosed without seeing the dog anyway). Ask a professional - NOT an obedience instructor.

[minyvlz]

SecretKei - I think so too... probably means I have to tie him up somewhere secluded next time or dine somewhere pet-friendly...

No. You need to leave the dog in a secure place (ie crated in the car) or at home.

That's not going to happen. If I can correct him when he's with me, why not? Even if I leave him in the car, he's gonna bark anyway without anyone correcting him. That will scare children off even more if they can't see him.

Yes.

Deal with it now and deal with it correctly. Don't leave it until the dog is an adult and out of control.

Internet forums are not the place for advice on fear aggression (which can't be diagnosed without seeing the dog anyway). Ask a professional - NOT an obedience instructor.

I'm sorry if you didn't get what I meant but my obedience instructor is a behaviourist under Craig Murray. When I had trouble with my friend's dog, she was the one that would come to my place to see the dog. I have asked and her answer was pretty much useless. If someone else has any other recommendation for a behaviourist on the Gold Coast I would love to have it thanks.

[Red Fox]

SecretKei - I think so too... probably means I have to tie him up somewhere secluded next time or dine somewhere pet-friendly...

No. You need to leave the dog in a secure place (ie crated in the car) or at home.

That's not going to happen. If I can correct him when he's with me, why not? Even if I leave him in the car, he's gonna bark anyway without anyone correcting him. That will scare children off even more if they can't see him.

If you can have him with you and pay 100% attention that is much different to tying him up in a secluded place.

You may find that he behaves differently when crated (or contained in the car) as he is less vunerable. A negative experience whilst tethered could make the behaviour worse.

I'm sorry if you didn't get what I meant but my obedience instructor is a behaviourist under Craig Murray. When I had trouble with my friend's dog, she was the one that would come to my place to see the dog. I have asked and her answer was pretty much useless. If someone else has any other recommendation for a behaviourist on the Gold Coast I would love to have it thanks.

What advice were you given?

When my dog was 4 months old he began showing signs of fearful behaviour towards children. I asked at my local club and was told to "ignore it he's not aggressive" or "put a husher on him". I knew no better so just ignored it like I was told. By not dealing with it head on at an early age it turned into full blown fear aggression as my dog reached adolecense and has taken a very good behaviourist and a lot of work to manage. I won't say it's been a bucketload of fun either.

Why not consult Craig directly?

If he cannot help you I'd recommend you call Steve Courtney and have a chat to him. There may be someone closer that he can refer you to.

Isn't Jane Harper on the Gold Coast?

[Nekhbet]

If Craig is putting his name behind your instructor as a behaviourist and you are not happy she is a behavioural trainer, contact Craig direct. Very nice man, extremely knowlegable dont feel you cannot approach him

[aussielover]

Don't just ignore it.

I was given similar advice to SecretKei with my puppy from trainers. Luckily I knew that this was wrong, generally dogs don't bark for no reason. Still today, some of her obedience instructors think its acceptable for her to bark at people because she is a labrador and obviously wouldn't hurt anyone... :rolleyes:

I also recommend Steve from K9pro, I have been able to get my dog under control with his help.