Further Changes To Grand Title

[Dogsfevr]

It is fine if those with a Poodle, Lab, Sibe, Cav, Akita, Staffie, etc want to make it tougher fora GC title. You have plenty of opportunities of 25 point challenges and your breeds are popular choices for in group or in show. I counted up the dogs for a few of the rarer breeds at the last two Royals and neither would have been a 25 point challenge. When was the last time you heard of a Leonberger, Pharoah Hound, Tibetan Mastiff, Belgian Sheherd taking out a group if BIS award? Not very often. Shouldn't they have an opportunity at a Grand title if they want to get out there and show?

Pharoahs ,Tib Mastiff( i believe QLD has a very big winning one who does very well ) & leons have all won with no issues.

I have 3 grand Champs who all did it with either no comp or a handful All Multi BIS/Group winners.All would have qualified under the old & new system.

I have also made up Grand champ dachshund,Airedale & affie ,The Dachshund & Airedale again often the only of there breed shown but both Multi BIS/Group winners .The Affie was also a major group winner but did have comp more often

As for comp it makes no difference if there a grand champ or not before the title came in the same dogs still would be shown .Infact when i started showing i would say the comp was much harder than now ,people do have it much easier now than 20 yrs ago,

What i always fined interesting when this topic comes up is the people who whinge the most come from the states that have enormous numbers of shows & far more opportunties .

Any dog can win infact you tend to see alot of rare /minority breeds with Grand titles under both systems

[jr_inoz]

slightly OT - but I was still wondering what other breeds have a ROMA title? Is it all other breeds or just shelties?

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I'm another one for leave it as it is. The whole point of these titles is that not everyone can get one. A Gr Ch which hasn't won a few groups or beaten numerous members of its own breed is not very Grand. I'd also rather see the Ch title given a bit of a boost. So for example, in breeds with registrations over a certain number you should have to make up a certain number of the points by beating others.

And Supreme Grand sounds like a chain store pizza.

FWIW, I don't have any Grands, I have a boy coming up now who might make the grade in 3 years time. If he doesn't, well, that's life.

Edited for grammar.

Edited October 9, 2011 by SkySoaringMagpie

[Sandra777]

I can't figure out why it has to be made so complicated.

The minimum number of challenges you can make a grand in is 40.

Why not just have you can be a grand if you can make 1000 points in 50 CCs or 55 CCs.

If they're All Breed BiS 25 pointers or Speciality Show 25 pointers doesn't matter.

As for dividing champions and grand champions into other classes.

No.

a) if they can still compete for the CC against all the others it only gives a lazy or incompetent judge a good hint about which one to put up.

b) if they can't compete for the CC then all it does is create an assembly line situation for champions, hop on one end, get off the other when the guy in front of you is finished.

Sorry, too much obsession with titles IMO. I think it would be a great idea to recognise a dog or bitch who produces the goods. Perhaps a percentage of the pups produced though rather than an actual number (eg just say 50% of a bitch's progeny - then it doesn't matter if she has two litters of 15 and produces 15 champions or one litter of 2 and produces 1 champion). OK - I have no idea what to do about uneven numbers in this scenario :D

[TessnSean]

What i always fined interesting when this topic comes up is the people who whinge the most come from the states that have enormous numbers of shows & far more opportunties

Well there you go. I thought I was having a reasonable conversation and playing devil's advocate by putting a different point of view. Solidly put back in my place by the mighty and all knowing Showdog and outed as a whinger. I am a bit offended by that actually. Pretty typical of the "play the man" responses in here lately though. The Show Ring side of DOL has become very much a closed shop. Look what fatigues copped a couple of weeks back. Enjoy your thread whinge free because this whinger is out of here. I will head off and change my location though. We moved from 'near Melbourne' 10 months ago and I had forgotten that on my profile until you. Made your whinger comment.

[brentland]

slightly OT - but I was still wondering what other breeds have a ROMA title? Is it all other breeds or just shelties?

The ROMA title is not an officially recognised title - ie - not awarded by the ANKC.

This is no way suggests that I don't like it - think that it is a fabulous thing to

acknowledge that the individual animal has had an impact on the breed.

[Dogsfevr]

The Bull Terriers use the ROM title & i think there is based solely on points gained at shows.

I like the system used by the American Whippet club

OM/ROMX Regulations

PDF FORM

Approved January 2006; effective April 2006

The AWC Register of Merit program was developed to recognize Whippet sires and dams with superior producing ability. It was not designated as a conformation-only program and in past years we have seen an attempt to recognize more of the performance titles but they have been cumbersome at best. By utilizing events that already have inspection of disqualifying faults, this proposal provides a fairly simple way for people to utilize several different champion level titles in recognizing superior sires and dams. Following are a list of the titles and venues that will be discussed in the requirements:

ROM/ROMX contributing titles:

AKC bench champion

AKC Field Champion

ASFA LCM: Lure Courser of Merit, levels 1 and higher.

CWA ARX: Award of Racing Excellence

NAWRA RCh: Race Champion

NOFCA CC and CM: Coursing Champion, Courser of Merit

NOTRA ORC: Oval Racing Champion

WRA WRCh: Whippet Racing Champion

Qualifying titles and events:

AKC JC: Junior Courser

AKC SC: Senior Courser

AKC MC: Master Courser

ASFA FCh: Field Champion

CWA TRP: Title of Racing Proficiency

ROM/ROMX Requirements – Effective April 2006

The AWC awards the producing titles of ROM (Register Of Merit) and ROMX (Register Of Merit Excellent) to Whippets who have sired or produced exceptional numbers of bench, race or coursing champions. The American Whippet Club will award the Register of Merit and Register of Merit Excellent titles to outstanding sires and dams (alive or deceased) when the following requirements have been met:

Register of Merit (ROM)

For any Whippet sire whose offspring have earned a minimum of 15 or any Whippet dam whose offspring have earned a minimum of 7 of the following titles:

Register of Merit Excellent (ROMX)

For any Whippet sire whose offspring have earned a minimum of 25 or any Whippet dam whose offspring have earned a minimum of 10 of the following titles:

1. Contributing Titles:

Unconditional Titles:

AKC Champion, AKC Field Champion, ASFA LCM, ARM, ARX.

Conditional Titles:

CC, CM, ORC, RCH, WRCh. Since these titles are earned in venues where breed disqualifications are not completely inspected, or dogs with disqualifications can title, every dog contributing one of the conditional titles must present proof of an additional qualifying title or attendance in an event where height, eye and bite disqualifications, as described in the AWC breed standard, are examined for.

2. Qualifying titles and events include:

AKC coursing (JC, SC, MC)

CWA racing (TRP)

ASFA coursing (FCh)

Proof of competition in the AKC conformation ring.

For the above listed events, either proof of title (photocopy) or an official record of attendance can serve to prove the dog has been inspected at least once, for all breed disqualifications.

3. A copy of the Contributing Title certificate MUST accompany the ROM/ROMX application (proof of AKC Ch, ARX, LCM, etc). It is up to the applying party to present all necessary documentation for all contributing titles! This is NOT THE JOB of the program director and the application WILL NOT BE PROCESSED if the paperwork is not complete.

4. A copy of the Qualifying Title or an official record of attendance MUST accompany the ROM/ROMX application where a conditional title is used. It is up to the applying party to present all necessary documentation for conditional titles! This is NOT THE JOB of the program director and the application WILL NOT BE PROCESSED if the paperwork is not complete.

5. Only one title in each field of endeavor to be counted (one racing title, one coursing title, one open field title).

Conformation:

AKC Champion

Lure Coursing:

ASFA LCM or higher, AKC FCh

Racing:

ARX, RCh, ORC, WRCh

Open Field Coursing

NOFCA CM, NOFCA CC

6. Only two titles maximum count per offspring.

ROM awards are granted by application only. The applicant need not be the owner of the dog, but a completed form must be submitted, including proof of all contributing and qualifying titles.

[Sayreovi]

While I sort of agree that it will be hard for the rarer breeds to get a grand, it's not impossible.

I have a breed where I am usually the only entry and not a really glamourous looking breed in a very hard group. However Tollers elsewhere have done some nice wins, as they are good enough to do so. There is a couple in SA and in NSW that are doing alot of consistent in group and in show wins because they are excellent examples of the breed. One yesterday took out RuIS in NSW after beating 15 (I think) Tollers at a yearly get together.

These few are very deserving of the title and will get it.

Not every dog of every breed is so deserving, I will say honestly that mine at the moment will never get a grand champion title, they are nice dogs and worthy of a champion title but certainly not good enough to crack the big one.

[OSoSwift]

My Dobe had a ROM

To get their ROM they have to have their Champion title, at least a CD title, and their WAC - or working aptitude title which is a temperment test (you can google it)

I believe she was the 41st ROM since it's inception.

[jr_inoz]

slightly OT - but I was still wondering what other breeds have a ROMA title? Is it all other breeds or just shelties?

The ROMA title is not an officially recognised title - ie - not awarded by the ANKC.

This is no way suggests that I don't like it - think that it is a fabulous thing to

acknowledge that the individual animal has had an impact on the breed.

Yep - with Shetland Sheepdogs - it is awarded by the club - I think the historian for the NSW club has all the records.

Dogs need to have sired 10 champions, bitches 5 champions.

My Dobe had a ROM

To get their ROM they have to have their Champion title, at least a CD title, and their WAC - or working aptitude title which is a temperment test (you can google it)

I believe she was the 41st ROM since it's inception.

so a ROM with Dobes is obviously a bit different to a ROMA for a shetland sheepdog?

[Ceilidh]

I would hate to see it revert back, the title GRAND deserves to NOT be easy to obtain. While I don't have a rare breed I believe that ANY quality dog will win at the top level. For those that say 'how many such and such breeds have you seen winning at the top level' I could say 'well how many of so and sos dogs do you see win at the top level'. Personnally I have won up to RU BIS with cockers but never cracked THE top one, and also RU BIS with the foxie but not THE top one. These are both popular breeds but I haven't got there, YET! Bottom line...I believe if the dog is good enough, no matter what breed, it will get the top occolade! PLEASE don't wish for a title that is shit easy to get! Any dog can get there with lots of travel so leave it a more prestigious award. JMHO.

[OSoSwift]

slightly OT - but I was still wondering what other breeds have a ROMA title? Is it all other breeds or just shelties?

The ROMA title is not an officially recognised title - ie - not awarded by the ANKC.

This is no way suggests that I don't like it - think that it is a fabulous thing to

acknowledge that the individual animal has had an impact on the breed.

Yep - with Shetland Sheepdogs - it is awarded by the club - I think the historian for the NSW club has all the records.

Dogs need to have sired 10 champions, bitches 5 champions.

My Dobe had a ROM

To get their ROM they have to have their Champion title, at least a CD title, and their WAC - or working aptitude title which is a temperment test (you can google it)

I believe she was the 41st ROM since it's inception.

so a ROM with Dobes is obviously a bit different to a ROMA for a shetland sheepdog?

Yep there is no breeding requirement. They do have to be a minimum of 18 months of age to do the WAC part. Was very interesting to watch them do it. They have to be steady with strangers, strange noises (gun shot, suddenly shaking can of pebbles, an umbrella opening in their face) and footings ( mesh, caavas over grass) and act appropriately with an agitator- Ie not back off and try to flee but not over the top aggressive either. They must also calm withing a set amount of time after the agitator "flees"

Edited October 10, 2011 by OSoSwift

[SparkyTansy]

I think ROM, BROM titles are usually applied for by individual National Breed Councils to the ANKC, who will grant them but it's all based on a criteria selected by the national breed council made up of state breed clubs. Some of them, I think, include achievements such as numbers of produced champion progeny, other working titles etc.

[mirawee]

Personally I think the Grand Champion title should be made fairer by removing the 25 point CC at breed level. 25 points needs to be with BIG only. Under the current rules numerically superior breeds don't require even 1 BIG win as they tend to have 25 point BOBs most shows.

Specialty wins are only good if you have breeds that run specialty shows. For both my breeds I would need to spend several thousands of dollars to go over East to compete at specialty shows. We will be doing that next year but then that will be for the first Lappy specialty in Australia

[yarracully]

Personally I think the Grand Champion title should be made fairer by removing the 25 point CC at breed level. 25 points needs to be with BIG only. Under the current rules numerically superior breeds don't require even 1 BIG win as they tend to have 25 point BOBs most shows.

Specialty wins are only good if you have breeds that run specialty shows. For both my breeds I would need to spend several thousands of dollars to go over East to compete at specialty shows. We will be doing that next year but then that will be for the first Lappy specialty in Australia

If you remove the 25 point breed challenge you automatically remove the specialty shows. A win at a specialty show is equal to a breed challenge. So that if you win a specialty show with 100 entries as far as the requirements are concerned that is the same as a 25 point breed challenge.

A win at a specialty show does not equal a win at an all breeds show. (As it currently stands)

[GRD]

The actual motion is for a new conformation title “Supreme Champion’ with the requirements to attain this new title to be as follows: 1,000 points, including 3 All Breeds Best in Shows; or 10 Best in Group/Specialty Best in Show.

Either 3 different Best in Show Judges or 10 different Best in Group/Specialty judges must be submitted, there can be no repeated judges.

If you want to get your thoughts to your states ANKC Director you will have yo hurry, it will be voted on this week end.

Hi - I heard earlier today that apparently the requirements for a Grand Champion are being changed back to the old system and that there is going to be a new title called a Supreme Grand which will require 10 BIG or BIS (can't remember the details as it was a rushed conversation) - apologies if I've missed this elsewhere, I did a quick search but I'm completely useless at searching.

[kelpiesrule]

Every time there is a posting about GC titles, those who post have the strong opinion that the title should be tougher to obtain. Just so readers are in no doubt that they are more than qualified to express an educated opinion, we are also told about the number of GC's they have. Congratulations. Having a GC would be quite an achievement.

Another topic discussed often is the declining attendance at shows. I think returning to the old system will keep people showing. As a case in point, I have two dogs here who have in excess of 250 points each. I said to my husband in the past week that once we did the shows they are currently entered for that I would stop showing them as there was nowhere to go with them. They win their far share of in group classes but I rarely see the breed take off Group or In Show. Should the old system return, I will strongly consider keeping going.

It is fine if those with a Poodle, Lab, Sibe, Cav, Akita, Staffie, etc want to make it tougher fora GC title. You have plenty of opportunities of 25 point challenges and your breeds are popular choices for in group or in show. I counted up the dogs for a few of the rarer breeds at the last two Royals and neither would have been a 25 point challenge. When was the last time you heard of a Leonberger, Pharoah Hound, Tibetan Mastiff, Belgian Sheherd taking out a group if BIS award? Not very often. Shouldn't they have an opportunity at a Grand title if they want to get out there and show?

What does it matter If a dog that isn't your choice is a GC title holder? What does it matter to you if they get stud fees to their dog supposedly because of the title but you don't stand your dog anyway? I believe that you should all think outside your own breeds and start thinking about the whole dog world. It is all very well to say that a good dog will win what is currently required but the fact is that they won't. There are some very fine dogs amongst the rare breeds but they will never be awarded.

Sorry - but I don't agree with your assumption that people with views that the Gr CH should be tougher are people with Gr CH - I don't own a GR CH or even an Ch yet (soon I hope) but believe that the current rules are better than the old ones. A Gr CH needs to have shown that it has beaten something. The requirement of four 25 point challenges makes sure that this has happened. Also - a Belgian Shepherd was BIS at an all breeds show here in SA last year - so it does happen. This breed regularly wins at Group level because it is a fantastic example of the breed. It will get its grand easily (it might have it already actually - I am unsure - it has enough group wins to qualify though). Good examples of rare breeds do win at group level here in SA on a regular basis.

In terms of keeping people at shows - Dogzonline point score is doing that nicely .

One Belgian Shepherd in one State. Name me the last Leonberger or Pharoah Hound. The Dogzonline point score is keeping the Grand Champions showing. Look at who leads each State and breed. Point score won't keep me showing but a change back in the GC conditions probably will.

A Pharoah hound recently won BIS in QLD

[mirawee]

If you remove the 25 point breed challenge you automatically remove the specialty shows. A win at a specialty show is equal to a breed challenge. So that if you win a specialty show with 100 entries as far as the requirements are concerned that is the same as a 25 point breed challenge.

A win at a specialty show does not equal a win at an all breeds show. (As it currently stands)

So get rid of the 25 point BOB at All breed shows but accept 25 point BIS at Specialties

I just don't see why breeds with less than 20 dogs competing have to beat the breeds who got a 25 point BOB for BIG but are treated the same in respect to the Gr Ch title.

Also a Pharoah Hound won BIG at Perth Royal this year - ok so not a BIS but still pretty good

[Dogsfevr]

If you remove the 25 point breed challenge you automatically remove the specialty shows. A win at a specialty show is equal to a breed challenge. So that if you win a specialty show with 100 entries as far as the requirements are concerned that is the same as a 25 point breed challenge.

Also a Pharoah Hound won BIG at Perth Royal this year - ok so not a BIS but still pretty good

The beagle won the hound group at the Perth Royal but a Pharoah has won the group at Perth Royal in the past

We do have a Pharoah here who is a Multi BIS winner & group winner ,won BIS at the Hound club the other week

I say keep it simple like NZ 3 BIS All Breeds so many CC .

If 25 points is still wanted its for group only .

so 4 BIG or 1 All breeds BIS

Fair for All Breeds & for exhibitors in all states .

[Dellcara]

As always no system is going to please everyone .....

In my breed of course 25pt CC's are available at many shows in the breed.

I'd agree with 4 BIG or 1 Allbreed BIS but think that a Specialty BIS should account for something.

Then of course ... there are some places who don't get a 25pt CC for Best in Group .. I was looking

at some results earlier and the Group entry was 4 !!!!!