Desexing In Europe

[Leema]

Thank-you for your continued discussion. I am very interested in your experiences, and also any further links on the topic.

[Tiara]

Having been to Europe and visited rellies that are in the Veterinary field, I found that they were shocked when they heard that desexing is standard procedure here in Australia.

I definitely agree that the mentality towards dog ownership is very different there, and in a very good way, too.

People also seem to have a good understanding of the need for training, as well as the dog's purpose (eg: working dog, gundog etc.).

[SparkyTansy]

It is difficult to generalise on this as Europe is not a country. It is many & they are vastly different is so many ways.

Dog ownership in the scandanavian countries like Norway for example would be so different than in Spain or Portugal. Their whole culture & attitude is different.

Then there is Russia, Poland, Hungary etc another culture that varies within itself.

Germany. France, UK, all other cultures.

They all have different laws, breeding rules, dog ownership rules & animal welfare rules. Some don't actually have any animal welfare rules or laws.

I know in the UK pet dogs are often desexed.

As an english person I do find the australian attitude towards dogs odd & fairly rigid.

This...

My mum has a friend who retired in Spain from the UK, and she was appalled at the treatment of the dogs there. there are many strays and loose dogs and people tend to care very little for them, allowing them to wander the streets, mixing with strays and probably breeding because they aren't desexed. Her friend ran a rescue for a while but had to give it up eventually because of the lack of good homes available. I think she has 3 or 4 "foster failures"

And yet in Germany I have heard that it is a privelige to own a dog and that many are very responsible. It is very difficult to get a Weimaraner in Germany and it is restricted only to people that will hunt with the dog. You must apply through the Weimaraner club and the club breed wardens make all the decisions about which dogs to breed and who gets one.

[LisaJ]

After much "googling" I found one site from one rescue/rehome organisation with some statistic over euthanasia.

http://www.hundstallet.se/index.php/om-oss

This link is to an organisation in Stockholm, the most populated city in Sweden.

As many others have mentioned, Europe is big with 50 or so different countries and a huge variety in attitude and practices to animals in general and dogs in particular.

[Christina]

It is difficult to generalise on this as Europe is not a country. It is many & they are vastly different is so many ways.

Dog ownership in the scandanavian countries like Norway for example would be so different than in Spain or Portugal. Their whole culture & attitude is different.

Then there is Russia, Poland, Hungary etc another culture that varies within itself.

Germany. France, UK, all other cultures.

They all have different laws, breeding rules, dog ownership rules & animal welfare rules. Some don't actually have any animal welfare rules or laws.

I know in the UK pet dogs are often desexed.

As an english person I do find the australian attitude towards dogs odd & fairly rigid.

This...

My mum has a friend who retired in Spain from the UK, and she was appalled at the treatment of the dogs there. there are many strays and loose dogs and people tend to care very little for them, allowing them to wander the streets, mixing with strays and probably breeding because they aren't desexed. Her friend ran a rescue for a while but had to give it up eventually because of the lack of good homes available. I think she has 3 or 4 "foster failures"

And yet in Germany I have heard that it is a privelige to own a dog and that many are very responsible. It is very difficult to get a Weimaraner in Germany and it is restricted only to people that will hunt with the dog. You must apply through the Weimaraner club and the club breed wardens make all the decisions about which dogs to breed and who gets one.

Not sure if they still have it now but years ago in Benidorm or Majorca, I think it was, in Spain, they had a national cat hunt day every year. This was a day when they went out shooting the local feral & stray cats. It was like a sporting event

In many other european countries this would not be acceptable at all but some would not see much wrong with it. Like different worlds.

[OSoSwift]

It has been mentioned somewhere but I can't remember where. A working dog in this instance was a Gundog and you could only have one if you were a registered hunter and held a current license. People couldn't just go out and think, I would like a Weimaraner and get one.

Also in one of the European countries it is illegal to hunt rabbits. A group of people did with thier Whippets. Officials saw the footage, found the poeple invloved and seized the dogs and euthed them from memory. The rabbits are considered property of the King in that country.

The King should look after his rabbits a bit better then

Do you remember what country?

One of the Scandinavian countries, but cannot remember exactly which one.........it was mentioned on a forum which is no longer running unfortunately or I would look it up for you

[Nekhbet]

Desexing is unusual for the simple reason you cannot be bothered to manage your animals. My aunt had about 40 dogs at one point, you didnt desex them all unless something was wrong, you were responsible and kept them separate. Her gardener exercised them every day and they ate fresh meat and bones, not canned food and kibble. The rubbish we feed our dogs here is a massive surprise as well.

Dogs also came with you everywhere including on the aeroplane while travelling

[Souff]

It is only in the last 30 years that de-sexing has become so popular in Australia and this fits in with a whole host of things that people changed to make life easier for them. I think the trend actually started in America in the 70s and we seemed to have followed the US.

Like your aunt Nekhbet, good owners of animals MANAGED their dogs well here in Australia too.

De-sexing is purely for convenience. The convenience of humans. Keeping the male and the female separate when the female is in season is a chore, and Aussies don't like chores and let accidents happen.

In the UK and in most countries of Europe you wont find many people de-sexing their dogs for the same reasons that Aussies do. And in many countries there they have the dogs living inside with them far more than we do in Australia, because of the climate. One family I know send the male over to a relative's house when the girl is in season when they don't want a mating to happen. No fuss, no bother, just an accepted practice in their community. Commonsense really, and they have a history of being excellent carers of animals for centuries.

Gene pools of purebred dogs in Australia have been weakened substantially by de-sexing but who is listening?

All the time I see beautiful young dogs who could have contributed their genes back to the bloodlines, but no. The dog was sold as a pet and is now de-sexed because owners are told that that is the responsible thing to do.

In the eyes of the today's society, that is.

The health of the gene pools here in Australia is simply not a consideration and the gene pools are paying a high price in Australia.

Souff

[OSoSwift]

I have had entire animals of both sexes and different breeds and all were managed so there were no issues. OH nearly caused one, but after the shredding recieved he won't be doing that again!

For most people they just can't be bothered putting up with it, so desex the dogs. Whilst yes gene pools are depleted by the practice I prefer it to regularly occuring accidenatl litters.

I believe any animal that has a health issue that renders it unable to be bred from or a genetic issue should be desexed.

[LisaJ]

It has been mentioned somewhere but I can't remember where. A working dog in this instance was a Gundog and you could only have one if you were a registered hunter and held a current license. People couldn't just go out and think, I would like a Weimaraner and get one.

Also in one of the European countries it is illegal to hunt rabbits. A group of people did with thier Whippets. Officials saw the footage, found the poeple invloved and seized the dogs and euthed them from memory. The rabbits are considered property of the King in that country.

The King should look after his rabbits a bit better then

Do you remember what country?

One of the Scandinavian countries, but cannot remember exactly which one.........it was mentioned on a forum which is no longer running unfortunately or I would look it up for you

Hmmmm....sounds a bit strange cause rabbits are considered pest in all three Scandinavian countries. This does not make cruelty to rabbits ok, so lure courseing with live rabbits is unlawful. I say it would be the organinser/s and owner/s who would have to take the consequenses of doing something outside the law, euthanasia of the dog/s is too far fetched.

[dancinbcs]

In the UK neutering is very common, so I find the remark "Fogle told Ted it's very rare that a British Citizen brings him a dog to neuter" a bit odd? It's pretty standard for 'responsible' pet owners have their dogs and cats neutered.

I find this comment odd. I questioned the UK Border Collie breeders about why their pet puppies, that would be desexed anyway, needed to be DNA health tested before sale. Their response was that it would be rare for anyone to desex a purebred dog so they needed to know the DNA status of carrier or normal before they left. They put breeding endorsements on their dogs so the progeny cannot be registered with the KC, but even then they claim most pet dogs are not desexed.

I agree with Souff as well. The current mania to desex all but one puppy in a litter is going to spell the end of pure bred dogs and eventually all dogs, sooner rather than later. The only problem I have ever had with puppy buyers is trying to get them to not desex too early or keep a dog entire in case it is needed for future breeding. Hardly anyone is prepared to keep an entire dog as a pet. All my girls have been desexed in their later years, after they finished breeding and showing to eliminate the chance of pyo but we really need more pure bred dogs left entire. Not whole litters but certainly anything of quality if dogs are going to exist in another 30 years.

Shelters are not full because there are too many purebred dogs being bred, they are full because so many people buy a puppy when they have no idea how to raise one. It becomes a nuisance so they dump it them buy another puppy and the cycle continues.

[Blackdogs]

In the UK neutering is very common, so I find the remark "Fogle told Ted it's very rare that a British Citizen brings him a dog to neuter" a bit odd? It's pretty standard for 'responsible' pet owners have their dogs and cats neutered.

I find this comment odd. I questioned the UK Border Collie breeders about why their pet puppies, that would be desexed anyway, needed to be DNA health tested before sale. Their response was that it would be rare for anyone to desex a purebred dog so they needed to know the DNA status of carrier or normal before they left. They put breeding endorsements on their dogs so the progeny cannot be registered with the KC, but even then they claim most pet dogs are not desexed.

I agree with Souff as well. The current mania to desex all but one puppy in a litter is going to spell the end of pure bred dogs and eventually all dogs, sooner rather than later. The only problem I have ever had with puppy buyers is trying to get them to not desex too early or keep a dog entire in case it is needed for future breeding. Hardly anyone is prepared to keep an entire dog as a pet. All my girls have been desexed in their later years, after they finished breeding and showing to eliminate the chance of pyo but we really need more pure bred dogs left entire. Not whole litters but certainly anything of quality if dogs are going to exist in another 30 years.

Shelters are not full because there are too many purebred dogs being bred, they are full because so many people buy a puppy when they have no idea how to raise one. It becomes a nuisance so they dump it them buy another puppy and the cycle continues.

Fantastic comment! I agree!

[OSoSwift]

It has been mentioned somewhere but I can't remember where. A working dog in this instance was a Gundog and you could only have one if you were a registered hunter and held a current license. People couldn't just go out and think, I would like a Weimaraner and get one.

Also in one of the European countries it is illegal to hunt rabbits. A group of people did with thier Whippets. Officials saw the footage, found the poeple invloved and seized the dogs and euthed them from memory. The rabbits are considered property of the King in that country.

The King should look after his rabbits a bit better then

Do you remember what country?

One of the Scandinavian countries, but cannot remember exactly which one.........it was mentioned on a forum which is no longer running unfortunately or I would look it up for you

Hmmmm....sounds a bit strange cause rabbits are considered pest in all three Scandinavian countries. This does not make cruelty to rabbits ok, so lure courseing with live rabbits is unlawful. I say it would be the organinser/s and owner/s who would have to take the consequenses of doing something outside the law, euthanasia of the dog/s is too far fetched.

Could be a crock, but hunting the rabbits were illegal in that country, and I can only go on what I was told from the person that lived there.

[Liath]

We have two undesexed girls and 1 desexed girl. Managing the two isnt hard, its just common sense and watching them to ensure puppies do not happen. One is in season at the moment and because we have a low side gate, she isnt allowed in the back yard unless someone is with her just in case. We havent had any trouble so far with dogs jumping the fence and i hope it never happens. We have brought a higher gate, other half just needs to install it.

And why to people assume just because your dog is entire that your going to breed from them? Even our vet assumed we were going to breed.

my mother told me we were being cruel and heartless, irresponsible dog owners for not getting them desexed and *gasp* showing them. how dare we subject them to such cruelty!

[CrazyCresties]

In the UK neutering is very common, so I find the remark "Fogle told Ted it's very rare that a British Citizen brings him a dog to neuter" a bit odd? It's pretty standard for 'responsible' pet owners have their dogs and cats neutered.

I find this comment odd. I questioned the UK Border Collie breeders about why their pet puppies, that would be desexed anyway, needed to be DNA health tested before sale. Their response was that it would be rare for anyone to desex a purebred dog so they needed to know the DNA status of carrier or normal before they left. They put breeding endorsements on their dogs so the progeny cannot be registered with the KC, but even then they claim most pet dogs are not desexed.

After living in the UK for most of my 43 years, I can tell you that vets over there would not bat an eyelid if a pet was brought in for neutering. It's probably the most common surgery they perform.

[newfsie]

We have an undesexed male and female.....And it is amazing how people do not seem to be able to "get it" when I say I am not breeding. Just because they are both pure breeds and not desexed does not mean you have to breed. One of my bitches is in season right now. It takes some effort, but they are still managed and we will have no puppies. The other question when you say you are not breeding them is "when will you be desexing them?"

[Gayle.]

I have an entire male and female here, and yes, it's about managing them. I was going to get Dusty desexed when I stopped showing her as I am not breeding from her, but then I thought.....why? I like her the way she is, she's the EASIEST dog in the world to live with, she has the most gorgeous coat and as long as her seasons are reasonably easy to manage, I've decided to keep her entire.

My old Lhasa Apso was never desexed, she lived to a ripe old age with no health problems ever, and she was never bred from.

In fact, a lot of the behaviours that neutering is supposed to fix, is displayed by my already neutered dogs. Shae was desexed as a baby puppy and is the only one of my dogs that fights. She will start a fight and by god, she will finish it too. Ripley was neutered at the age of 3, in the past few weeks he's been escaping regularly from a very secure yard.

I don't like "spey coat" on coated breeds.....my son bought an absolutely beautiful 18mo orange belton English Setter, promptly had his nuts chopped off and within a few months his coat had gone from glorious, silky flowing tresses to a shaggy, scraggly mess. The dog was groomed daily and cared for beautifully but his coat never came close to regaining it's former glory.

We had Benson desexed at 4 months, as requested by his breeder and he had an awful coat......it was harsh and wiry, and never had the silky soft easy care properties my entire dogs have. Ripley's coat is very cottony, although him being neutered later in life meant that he did actually grow the full Aussie male ruff that early neuters don't grow.

Shae has a LOT of coat....loads of it in fact. Far more than an Aussie Shepherd bitch should have, it's pretty but it's far from correct for the breed.