SLF Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) Hi, Im fairly new to the 'breeding world' and would like to hear your advice. I have a background in vet nursing so understand most of whats involved but would love to hear some real life advice... I am hoping to do a natural mating with my female and follow it up with an AI from the same male. My female is just showing signs of comming into proestrus and I will having her swabbed and progesterone tested. This will be her last chance of a litter as she is getting on a bit in years and want to make sure I do everything right to maximise our chances of getting a litter. What tips and/or advice would you give, what do you wish someone told you? Edited January 25, 2012 by SLF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underfoot Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 The best advice I got was to get a good vet (reproduction specialist), mentor and read some old breeding and genetics books. Nothing has been more valuable than my mentor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I am hoping to do a natural mating with my female and follow it up with an AI from the same male. why do an AI if you can get a natural? If you think AI has a better succes rate then just do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLF Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 Rebanne, would you not do this? would this not give a greater chance of conception? I would rather a natural mating and the male is only an hours drive away, but I want to maximise the rate of conception and thought that putting it very simply 'the more sperm in there the better'. Im happy to be corrected if you all think differently....TIA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Why not do two natural matings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I would go for a natural mating over an AI any day of the week. If the dog isn't interested the second time and is an experienced stud dog then it's highly possible the bitch is no longer receptive so you're wasting everyone's time doing an AI. If the dog is inexperienced then it's a whole different ballgame and you would be best off getting hold of an experienced breeder to help out with the mating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLF Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 Thanks for the advice so far. Both the dog and bitch are experienced. If I have the PG testing done and they mate successfully then perhaps we do not need to go to AI, save everyone time and money. However if they dont mate well, no tie, perhaps do an AI ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Rebanne, would you not do this? would this not give a greater chance of conception? I would rather a natural mating and the male is only an hours drive away, but I want to maximise the rate of conception and thought that putting it very simply 'the more sperm in there the better'. Im happy to be corrected if you all think differently....TIA I just don't understand why do both? If you get a natural why not another? Why not 2 more if it comes to that, you still have to get the bitch to the dog. I would go natural before AI, to me AI is for when you can't get a natural mating or you are using chilled or frozen semen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tralee Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Hi, Im fairly new to the 'breeding world' and would like to hear your advice. I have a background in vet nursing so understand most of whats involved but would love to hear some real life advice... I am hoping to do a natural mating with my female and follow it up with an AI from the same male. My female is just showing signs of comming into proestrus and I will having her swabbed and progesterone tested. This will be her last chance of a litter as she is getting on a bit in years and want to make sure I do everything right to maximise our chances of getting a litter. What tips and/or advice would you give, what do you wish someone told you? Hi SLF. :) A background in Vet Nursing is not the same as doing small animal reproduction. Reproduction is a specialist area. You will need a Reproduction Specialist. Maybe Monash since you are in Vic. You might want to have your bitch tested for urerine and fallopian diseases and also herpes. Although an unused dog should not have any major issues. Prog. testing your dog will remove a lot of the guess work. You are on the right track with mating and AI. Mating only delivers to the vagina and at best is only equivalent to a Vaginal AI Intrauterine AI increaces the chance of whelping by 30% and the size of the litter by 2±0.49 Artificial Insemination in the Dog: What Can Be Learnt From Results in the Field? Feeding your bitch over the whelp and nursing is also important and there are excellent articles around. I am not giving any suggestions about whelping since even Reproductive experts will tell you to let the dog do it. But you need to be prepared and know what to look for. Regards. Px Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 dogs have sex - they have sex when they are ready - if they get pregnant they have puppies 9 weeks later. Its unusual for dogs who do have natural sex not to get pregnant , you don't need a specialist unless you have an out of the ordinary issue. You just need to let them do what they think is best .An AI should be the last resort and only with good reasons because often dogs don't have sex for their own good reason. In healthy dogs mating is a natural instinct and only occurs when its time - the sperm hangs around for a fair while and the system is designed to ensure maximum chance at a pregnancy better to let the dogs decide when that time is where possible rather than a test. You can test if its a case of wanting to be more sure of when if the male isnt there all the time but its a much nicer deal if you ask them each day and allow them to tell you if that's possible. Or you can - flare your nostrils and pinch the bulb end of your nose - notice the way it feels, then pinch the top of your lip and take note of the difference. When your bitch's vulva feels like your top lip rather than the bulb of your flared nose its time to mate. You dont automatically become a better breeder if you interfer any more than you need to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakway Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 When you say AI what do you mean ?. Do you mean putting the bitch under and placing the frozen or chilled semen directly into the bitch ?. Or do mean collecting the dog and doing a fresh AI on the spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakway Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Oh heavens I can't help myself. I am more interested in why you are breeding this bitch, is it for all the right reasons, that is, for the betterment of the breed or do just want to breed a litter. Is your bitch a pure bred registered with controlling body of your state ?. Are you a financial member of that state ?. Do you hold a breeders prefix ?. If you can't answear yes to all those questions I would question why you are breeding this bitch. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hilaryo Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 dogs have sex - they have sex when they are ready - if they get pregnant they have puppies 9 weeks later. Its unusual for dogs who do have natural sex not to get pregnant , you don't need a specialist unless you have an out of the ordinary issue. You just need to let them do what they think is best .An AI should be the last resort and only with good reasons because often dogs don't have sex for their own good reason. In healthy dogs mating is a natural instinct and only occurs when its time - the sperm hangs around for a fair while and the system is designed to ensure maximum chance at a pregnancy better to let the dogs decide when that time is where possible rather than a test. You can test if its a case of wanting to be more sure of when if the male isnt there all the time but its a much nicer deal if you ask them each day and allow them to tell you if that's possible. Or you can - flare your nostrils and pinch the bulb end of your nose - notice the way it feels, then pinch the top of your lip and take note of the difference. When your bitch's vulva feels like your top lip rather than the bulb of your flared nose its time to mate. You dont automatically become a better breeder if you interfer any more than you need to. Have to agree with Steve! Maybe we've been lucky but we've never had a bitch miss with a natural mating. Frozen AI - 2 attempts and 2 misses. I guess progesterone if you are not confident in timing. Is the stud dog owner experienced? Maybe leave your bitch with her/him for a few days. Good luck :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Oh heavens I can't help myself. I am more interested in why you are breeding this bitch, is it for all the right reasons, that is, for the betterment of the breed or do just want to breed a litter. Is your bitch a pure bred registered with controlling body of your state ?. Are you a financial member of that state ?. Do you hold a breeders prefix ?. If you can't answear yes to all those questions I would question why you are breeding this bitch. :) The OP is a registered breeder with the WKC (Working Kelpie Council) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tralee Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Oh heavens I can't help myself. I am more interested in why you are breeding this bitch, is it for all the right reasons, that is, for the betterment of the breed or do just want to breed a litter. Is your bitch a pure bred registered with controlling body of your state ?. Are you a financial member of that state ?. Do you hold a breeders prefix ?. If you can't answear yes to all those questions I would question why you are breeding this bitch. :) Had the same thought but OP would not be posting in the breeding forum if all af the above had not been passed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLF Posted January 26, 2012 Author Share Posted January 26, 2012 (edited) ok, Tralee- I live 400kms from Monash, and my vet who has many years experience in AI etc consults closely with the Vets at Monash. I have been getting their advice from our pre-breeding health check and will continue to do so . You are right, years working in a vet clinic has not prepared me very well for this, I have alot to learn. Oakway- I mean that we would try to mate naturally, then later take a fresh sample and do AI on the spot. But I am gathering that this is probably not much better than a 'mating' and if I were to bother perhaps an intra-uterine AI would be better. But if I get a good mating or two then why bother interferring at all and just let nature take its course...right? in effect dont try too hard, just let dogs do what dogs do Edited January 26, 2012 by SLF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 dogs have sex - they have sex when they are ready - if they get pregnant they have puppies 9 weeks later. Its unusual for dogs who do have natural sex not to get pregnant , you don't need a specialist unless you have an out of the ordinary issue. You just need to let them do what they think is best .An AI should be the last resort and only with good reasons because often dogs don't have sex for their own good reason. In healthy dogs mating is a natural instinct and only occurs when its time - the sperm hangs around for a fair while and the system is designed to ensure maximum chance at a pregnancy better to let the dogs decide when that time is where possible rather than a test. You can test if its a case of wanting to be more sure of when if the male isnt there all the time but its a much nicer deal if you ask them each day and allow them to tell you if that's possible. Or you can - flare your nostrils and pinch the bulb end of your nose - notice the way it feels, then pinch the top of your lip and take note of the difference. When your bitch's vulva feels like your top lip rather than the bulb of your flared nose its time to mate. You dont automatically become a better breeder if you interfer any more than you need to. Have to agree with Steve! Maybe we've been lucky but we've never had a bitch miss with a natural mating. Frozen AI - 2 attempts and 2 misses. I guess progesterone if you are not confident in timing. Is the stud dog owner experienced? Maybe leave your bitch with her/him for a few days. Good luck :) Years ago when AI's first started to become popular I had a very loverley Champion Beagle boy and we tried him over three different girls and got no mating so next time I thought Id give an AI a try . Took him and the girl off to the vet and as the vet was collecting him she sort of half hearted made a comment that his penis was deformed - the end bit didn't go hard which was why he couldnt penetrate the bitch when it was time to mate so I called the AI off in case it was something he may pass onto future generations .The vet didn't think it would and didn't see it as an issue. I did and while I would have loved to have some of his puppies for me he was telling me something when he wasn't mating and Ive never forgotten it. Ive also watched other breeds where Ai is the norm rather than the exception and I wonder if the incidence of HD would be the same if dogs which couldnt hold their own weight and tie because they had rotten hips were able to reproduce via AI when they couldnt mate naturally. So Im not anti AI but sometimes the dogs really do know best. I think dragging dogs off to the vet for testing stresses them and places them in a spot Id rather they were not in when their immune systems are lowered so the nose and lip thing has never let me down, its cheaper and less stress on the bitch. If you ffed them a small raw meat meal just before you want them to mate the arginine in the meat produces an instinctual reflex that makes em horny and pumps more blood to the penis too. Feed em meat - act like you're not watching and if they havent tied in 15 mins its not time - try again tomorrow. Easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLF Posted January 26, 2012 Author Share Posted January 26, 2012 Sorry, but I came on here to get advice from experienced people who have been doing this longer than I. I thought that the idea of the forum was to support and communicate with others. I live in a rural area and have only one other registered breeder within 100kms of me. I am registered with the WKC, I am actively involved in my local dog ob. club. I have years working as a vet nurse.I have also worked with the RSPCA. I chose this bitch bc of her workability traits, her temperament and her breeding. I chose the male for the same reasons. I hope to breed a dog that 'betters' the breed of kelpies. So I understand the responsiblity of being a 'responsible breeder'. Hence the reason I am asking for advice, if I didnt care and was a BYB why would I ask. I stated I was new to this, do you remember what it was like when you started? It makes me cross when you post "Oh heavens I can't help myself. I am more interested in why you are breeding this bitch, is it for all the right reasons, that is, for the betterment of the breed or do just want to breed a litter. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 In my experience the success rate is always higher with natural matings. I usually do 2 to 3 consecutive days. I only use AIs with an inexperienced stud dog or an oldie with back/leg issues that prevent natural matings. With the inexperienced dog I use an AI to take the pressure off while still trying for a natural mating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tralee Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 (edited) Tralee- I live 400kms from Monash, and my vet who has many years experience in AI etc. consults closely with the Vets at Monash. I have been getting their advice from our pre-breeding health check and will continue to do so. You are right, years working in a vet clinic has not prepared me very well for this, I have alot to learn. Oakway- I mean that we would try to mate naturally, then later take a fresh sample and do AI on the spot. But I am gathering that this is probably not much better than a 'mating' and if I were to bother perhaps an intra-uterine AI would be better. But if I get a good mating or two then why bother interferring at all and just let nature take its course...right? In effect dont try too hard, just let dogs do what dogs do. There are other Specialists in Vic and sometimes a phone consult is enough. If your Vet can do everything the Specialist can do then what more could you want? Unfortunately, mine doesn't know a horses head from its .... well you know. As the article points out data from natural matings is not available because breeders do not pass on their records. But, of course, allow the dogs to mate naturally. As steve points out, if they can't then they shouldn't be mating. But you queried mating an older dog (naturally) followed by an AI. The World Small Animal Veterinary Association article is peer reviewed and quite clearly shows the advantage of mating and fresh, intrauterine AI over chilled, frozen and vaginal AI. As concerns the question of AI. It is only recently I was being told that just because I witnessed two dogs tie, it did not follow that the bitch was pregnant, and one of my girls was having a phantom. So, I have no doubt that you will weigh up the info. for yourself and do what you think is in the best interests of your dog. Good Luck Edited January 26, 2012 by Tralee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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