sheena Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) I am considering getting my quite tall BC dog desexed next month @ 14 months, which is when he is due for his vaccinations. I was hoping to leave it for another couple of months,because he is a large dog, but he is wanting to pee on everything when out walking & has become a bit Food Agressive against my other girl. We are camping with the two at the moment & they both have had a chew for the last two days & he is quite posessive of his. Even at a distance of about 50 meters when returning from a walk, back towards camp, he started to snarl & had a go at her, took me by surprise He is normally a real angel, so I'm wondering if it is his hormones. I will get an opinion from my vet re: de-sexing, being a large BC, but would like to hear what others think . I might not wait till 14 months if he keeps this up Edited April 1, 2012 by sheena Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dotdashdot Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Have no advice for you Sheena, but only adding that I'm going to desex my girl soon too. You know where I work, and its hard getting weekends off to show her, so im going to "end" her short career as a show dog and enjoy her with no pesky seasons! I'll butt out now =] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted March 28, 2012 Author Share Posted March 28, 2012 Have no advice for you Sheena, but only adding that I'm going to desex my girl soon too. You know where I work, and its hard getting weekends off to show her, so im going to "end" her short career as a show dog and enjoy her with no pesky seasons! I'll butt out now =] Maybe you could bring her along to Agility & start her agility career Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Have his growth plates closed and has he stopped growing? They do continue to mature to about 4 but it is filling out rather growing. The food aggression can be managed and may not be hormonal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted March 28, 2012 Author Share Posted March 28, 2012 Have his growth plates closed and has he stopped growing? They do continue to mature to about 4 but it is filling out rather growing. The food aggression can be managed and may not be hormonal. I am going to get the vet to check out his growth plates. I think he has stopped growing as in putting on weight. He is not overweight by any means, just tall. This "thing" he has just started is very not like him & he seems to be frightened of his own feelings. At meal times, he will hide up the back of his kennel & wait until she has started eating before he will start his dinner. But we just took them for a walk before bed (we are still out camping) & he started it again as soon as we got within sight of the caravan. Maybe it's the smell of garbage cans & possums etc. If it were you, would you wait till his growth plates have closed before getting him desexed ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 I guess it's about weighing up the pros and cons. What is your feeding set up sheena? The novel environment in combination with sexual maturity might be throwing him. I am actually SUPER cautious when feeding - each dog is in a room or outside or in a crate by themselves. Completely out of sight of each other. One of my cats is food obsessed so I take him out of the equation too as he can be really annoying! I've always thought that prevention is easier than the cure. Both dogs feel comfortable that they don't have to defend themselves and have no problem with me approaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 maybe try tightening up on his general manners and position in the pack. I said to someone only recently, "just because he has balls doesn't mean he can get away with it" when the dog was being obnoxious. Your dog has been sexually mature for sometime now so I don't know about blaming hormones for bad manners Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 maybe try tightening up on his general manners and position in the pack. I said to someone only recently, "just because he has balls doesn't mean he can get away with it" when the dog was being obnoxious. Your dog has been sexually mature for sometime now so I don't know about blaming hormones for bad manners I agree with this. He needs to be pulled into line now, regardless of if he is entire or not. All my entire Borders have always eaten together with no issues, even when feeding raw bones or having visiting dogs. Even entire males that I wouldn't leave unattented together always had dinner together. The rule in this house is that I own and control the food and everyone can mind their manners, eat from their own bowl, stick to their own bone and woe betide anyone that growls. If you give food chews, either crate them or remove the chews if they can't be nice and chew in company. Definitely don't neuter and vaccinate at the same time. Vaccinations should not be given if the dog is stressed at all. If possible wait until his growth plates are closed to desex because he is going to be a performance dog but if you really feel he is getting to be too much with the hormones do it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted March 28, 2012 Author Share Posted March 28, 2012 maybe try tightening up on his general manners and position in the pack. I said to someone only recently, "just because he has balls doesn't mean he can get away with it" when the dog was being obnoxious. Your dog has been sexually mature for sometime now so I don't know about blaming hormones for bad manners I agree with this. He needs to be pulled into line now, regardless of if he is entire or not. All my entire Borders have always eaten together with no issues, even when feeding raw bones or having visiting dogs. Even entire males that I wouldn't leave unattented together always had dinner together. The rule in this house is that I own and control the food and everyone can mind their manners, eat from their own bowl, stick to their own bone and woe betide anyone that growls. If you give food chews, either crate them or remove the chews if they can't be nice and chew in company. Definitely don't neuter and vaccinate at the same time. Vaccinations should not be given if the dog is stressed at all. If possible wait until his growth plates are closed to desex because he is going to be a performance dog but if you really feel he is getting to be too much with the hormones do it now. Thanks for your replies everyone. I have heard that before (in bold) that's why I mentioned it, hoping someone would pick up on it & set me straight. I have always fed them together, but separated by a barrier & they both have to wait to be released to their food. My girl is not FA at all & is a little confused about why he has started growling at her from 50 meters away. He is fine with the other dogs at training, but I just have to keep an eye on him that he doesn't pee on any equipment. I really want to hold out till his growth plates have closed if possible. With the "wanting to mark every tree, post & clump of grass" while out walking, I have started letting him have one good pee at the start, one in the middle & one at the end...all the others, I wait till he is balancing on just 3 legs then pull him off-balance. & I am going to try some clicker training with him to stop him sniffing. It worked with my girl, so hoping it will work with him. So, I think, @ 14 months when I take him in for his vacs, I will get the vet to check his growth plates & decide from there. In the meantime, I will take any uneaten chews, bones etc away from him & see how he goes. Thanks Guys :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) Also, my Dally is a HUGE marker. I think it's also a bit of a sress relief. So I incorporate it in his reward system rather than punishing him for it. He's good now but my approach at training when he was young and silly was to get him out of his crate, give him 100% of my focus (this is critical) train for a few minutes, reinforce with food, then walk him away to an area (on lead) and give him a release word to sniff and pee. Sounds bizarre but it's really worked. He's very focused in the ring and understands how to get his rewards. Premack principle. Be wary of punishing him for sniffing/peeing as it can make them more anxious and disconnected from you. ETA: I agree with the others re food. Whilst I do tend to remove pressure around food they are all more than capable of exhibiting self control. When the cat shoots in to steal Ziggy's food he just stares at me until I remove him instead of growling. Edited March 28, 2012 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Glad dancinbcs picked up the vacc/desexing combo point - certainly separate those IMO. As far as the peeing on walks goes - like TSD I wouldn't be waiting till he's ready to pee then doing something - - for a performance dog, you want him happy to pee on command and when the right situation is presented (vertical surface for males :laugh: ) - so that you can make the 'peeing before you go in the ring' part of the routine. So I wouldn't be doing anything that might add anxiety about peeing when you're on the other end of the lead, if you see what I mean. If I really don't want Rory (or Kirra for that matter :D ) peeing on every likely spot, I just give them a verbal cue to keep walking, and I keep walking briskly and give verbal acknowledgement as they resume their purposeful walk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dotdashdot Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Have no advice for you Sheena, but only adding that I'm going to desex my girl soon too. You know where I work, and its hard getting weekends off to show her, so im going to "end" her short career as a show dog and enjoy her with no pesky seasons! I'll butt out now =] Maybe you could bring her along to Agility & start her agility career I will be soon! Is there training on Sat afternoon? I have this weekend off for my birthday, so might pop down to the oval if it is on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted March 29, 2012 Author Share Posted March 29, 2012 Have no advice for you Sheena, but only adding that I'm going to desex my girl soon too. You know where I work, and its hard getting weekends off to show her, so im going to "end" her short career as a show dog and enjoy her with no pesky seasons! I'll butt out now =] Maybe you could bring her along to Agility & start her agility career I will be soon! Is there training on Sat afternoon? I have this weekend off for my birthday, so might pop down to the oval if it is on? Obedience is on Saturday afternoons & they are soon starting (14th April) a new session of Canine College which is obedience & an intro to agility. You will need to ring & book for that. We have a dally at Agility now. Agility is held on Monday nights at 6.30 & usually they like you to have done Canine college first. Come down on Monday night & have a look & meet everyone The club is also getting into Rally-O too, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 (edited) It sounds to me as though your boy is testing the waters for a re-adjustment of hierarchy order, but he's not yet mature enough to be confident about it. I'd tighten the reins a bit to remind him of his boundaries and your expectations of him and that includes manners and you 'owning' the walk. Stop for a pee at the beginning of the walk and depending on how long the walk is for, then part way into the walk. That's a good time for sniffing around and letting him be a dog. Then off you go again. If you want him to be desexed, then have him desexed. If you would prefer to wait a bit longer, then wait a bit longer. My boy has an absolutely bestest favourite pee point along the way on one of our walks. I use this as a point where we click into training mode - practice nice tight heel, turns, backs, sits and anything else I want to work on. He usually busts his little bubble to exhibit the best he can, and focus is so strong (he knows he doesn't get anything unless he gives me focus). He's then released to "have a sniff" (his command). I just have to be careful that we're close enough to the pee point as if we're not I just about get pulled off my feet in his eagerness to get there. Edited March 29, 2012 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dotdashdot Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 Have no advice for you Sheena, but only adding that I'm going to desex my girl soon too. You know where I work, and its hard getting weekends off to show her, so im going to "end" her short career as a show dog and enjoy her with no pesky seasons! I'll butt out now =] Maybe you could bring her along to Agility & start her agility career I will be soon! Is there training on Sat afternoon? I have this weekend off for my birthday, so might pop down to the oval if it is on? Obedience is on Saturday afternoons & they are soon starting (14th April) a new session of Canine College which is obedience & an intro to agility. You will need to ring & book for that. We have a dally at Agility now. Agility is held on Monday nights at 6.30 & usually they like you to have done Canine college first. Come down on Monday night & have a look & meet everyone The club is also getting into Rally-O too, I think. Aw, I wont be able to come on this Monday, its my birthday dinner =[ Does it run on Easter monday? I've talked to another lady from the club, can't for the life of my remember her name, she quite regularly comes into my work, but she's explained what I need to do re. canine college. Cleo is coming into heat (fairly sure, she's showing every sign) so I will probably miss this round of canine college. If she doesn't come into heat this weekend, I may try and get it done sooner (would like that!) Anyone have any opinions on desexing a bitch who may be coming into season? I know its more costly etc to do a bitch during her season, but does the same apply if she looks like she's about to begin, but not bleeding? She's only slightly puffy, but a bit sooky too. It's exactly 6months since her 1st season. Sorry Sheena, I've hijacked the thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 He needs to be pulled into line now, regardless of if he is entire or not. All my entire Borders have always eaten together with no issues, even when feeding raw bones or having visiting dogs. Even entire males that I wouldn't leave unattented together always had dinner together. The rule in this house is that I own and control the food and everyone can mind their manners, eat from their own bowl, stick to their own bone and woe betide anyone that growls. If you give food chews, either crate them or remove the chews if they can't be nice and chew in company. This Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 Anyone have any opinions on desexing a bitch who may be coming into season? I know its more costly etc to do a bitch during her season, but does the same apply if she looks like she's about to begin, but not bleeding? She's only slightly puffy, but a bit sooky too. It's exactly 6months since her 1st season. Check with your Vet regarding what the hormone levels are doing pre-season and what the hormones will do post-desexing. I researched this when I was working on my Avoidance Motivated Aggression thesis and I know there is a period where the progesterone hormone is dominant. Sudden drops of progesterone, which occurs when a bitch is desexed, can result in the female dog experiencing emotional disturbances such as depression, irritability, nervousness and aggression which in turn can become learnt behaviours. So the theory is that it is best to avoid the period when progesterone production is peaking when thinking of desexing. I'm not a Vet. Just something I have read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted March 29, 2012 Author Share Posted March 29, 2012 It sounds to me as though your boy is testing the waters for a re-adjustment of hierarchy order, but he's not yet mature enough to be confident about it. I'd tighten the reins a bit to remind him of his boundaries and your expectations of him and that includes manners and you 'owning' the walk. Stop for a pee at the beginning of the walk and depending on how long the walk is for, then part way into the walk. That's a good time for sniffing around and letting him be a dog. Then off you go again. If you want him to be desexed, then have him desexed. If you would prefer to wait a bit longer, then wait a bit longer. My boy has an absolutely bestest favourite pee point along the way on one of our walks. I use this as a point where we click into training mode - practice nice tight heel, turns, backs, sits and anything else I want to work on. He usually busts his little bubble to exhibit the best he can, and focus is so strong (he knows he doesn't get anything unless he gives me focus). He's then released to "have a sniff" (his command). I just have to be careful that we're close enough to the pee point as if we're not I just about get pulled off my feet in his eagerness to get there. Yes, Erny, I think he is just testing the waters too, that's why I thought it might have been hormonal. On this mornings walk, as soon as Bindi knew we were on our way back to camp, her body language told me, she feared that Cricket might bash her up again when she gets to within the 50 meter mark. His body language changed too, & stared at her & started stalking her. I then walked her in front at a distance with her looking back over her shoulder & OH kept him well behind & said he had "that look" on his face all the way back to camp. Poor Bindi It is a very interesting thing....body language. This afternoon I am going to bring them back to camp a different way & see what happens. I feel he is probably just being a brat teenager, but don't know how to let him know it is wrong without actually scolding him. If I scold him, poor Bindi thinks she is in trouble too Maybe its time for a little LAT with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 Yes, Erny, I think he is just testing the waters too, that's why I thought it might have been hormonal. Desexing doesn't remove all the hormones - just reduces the testosterone a tad. A desexed dog can go through developmental phases as well. Maybe the desexing will take an edge off, but I wouldn't hang my hat on that being a guarantee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 Also - what do you feed him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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