Baileys mum Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 To the OP, I am very sorry you have had a bad experience. It is never easy when a pet is sick and yes, the emotions can be very much like if it were a member of our human family. As mentioned though, dogs do need to be treated like dogs and you actually do a dog not favours by not doing this. As Andisa mentioned, most of the dogs that experience the most stress are those that are 'babied' and not taught to cope. Teaching a dog to be confined in a small area such as a crate (so it learns to see it as a safe and comfortable 'den' or 'bedroom') can significantly reduce stress when a dog is required to travel or go to the vet. Taking the dog to puppy classes at a vet clinic can also greatly reduce a dogs concern about a vet clinic and they see it as a good and friendly place to be. Teaching a dog to be handled all over, to meet strangers and to be separated from you are all good things that will help the dog to cope in its everyday life. Care needs to be taken not to create a co-dependent situation. It does not help your dog and it does not help you. Grief is hard and does hurt. I know how hard it is and yes I have had to make the hard decision to say goodbye to dogs I have owned and loved and have held them as they died. It is never easy. If the grief and anger you are feeling is still significant at this point in time though it may help you to seek out professional assistance as it is not normal at this stage of the grieving process. As mentioned, vet clinics are like doctors surgeries and hospitals. No one likes being in hospital and they are in no way like home. They should not be expected to be like home. They are however, necessary things. Condemning the whole vet profession because of your experience (which you contributed to through your own decisions) is like condemning all human doctors because of one 'bad' one, all haridressers because of a bad haircut, or all chefs because of a bad meal etc etc. It is a significant overgeneralisation. Instead why not take a lesson from this experience on how you can make things betterfor your new dog. Instead of reatreating, why not take a proactive approach. As mentioned be proactive in finding a vet you are comfortable with. Perhaps as suggested ask for recommendations. Book your new pup into a puppy class. Get to know the staff and the clinic. Let your pup get to know them and become happy and comfortable going there. If you are concerned about vaccinations, do your research into them and talk to people who have gone the no vaccine route (you will find LOTs of information and discussion on natural rearing on the net that you can participate in) so your decision to give them to your dog or not is made from a positition of factual strength and is not an emotional kneejerk reaction. You will be able to evaluate the pros and cons and decide which risks are - for you - the ones you will accept and the ones you wont. I wont tell you which route is the right or wrong one, but at the moment your decision is being made based on emotion and that is not good. Be proactive in training your dog so that it can cope. As mentioned, babying it does it no favours and only sets it up for a lifetime of stress. Making sure that your dog has the ability to cope if it DOES need to be away from you, to be hospitalised or to be handled by other people is a good thing and IMO an owner that does not do this is doing a dog no favours at all. Be VERY careful you are not creating a co-dependent situation. That is not good for anyone - you orthe dog. Realise that loving your dog and having them as a 'good family member' does NOT mean treating them like a baby or a child. In reality doing this is selling the dog out and not giving it the respect it deserves as the marvellous creature it is - with its own motivations and behaviours as a dog and not as a human. A dog does not think like a human. Learning about dog behaviour will help you to learn more about your dog and to get closer to it. Remember the good times with your dog but also respect your dog by learning and moving on in a positive way from your experience with him. Use it to make your new pups life a happy one and remember that wrapping it in cotton woll and hiding it away will not do that. Where's the like button when I need it?..... Great post espinay2 I hope the OP takes in all the great advice you have given her. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifi Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 Espinay, as always - a fantastic post yes..we need a LIKE...LOVE...button :D fifi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifi Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 (edited) oops...double post ! Edited April 7, 2012 by fifi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeimMe Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 OP, I'm so sorry that you lost your dog at such a young age. It is never easy to say goodbye, especially when the passing is sudden or unexplained. That said, as others have mentioned you have a responsibility to your new dog to give it the longest and best quality of life possible and that can only be achieved by ensuring that medical care is given when required. You refer to your new dog as your child, so you obviously value him... bearing this in mind it's completely beyond me how you could think it in your new dog's best interest to fail to provide medical care. Few dogs would enjoy a stay at the vet clinic, but sometimes it is unavoidable and necessary. I think that you perhaps should have allowed yourself more time to grieve for the loss of Percy before you brought a new dog home. Your anger and blame directed at the vet is not rational and deep down you must know that the he is not to blame. Whatever was wrong with Percy was obviously serious, the vet gave you advice which you disregarded, his condition deteriorated and ultimately you elected to have him PTS without first getting a diagnosis so you will never know if his illness was treatable. It's very sad, but nobody is to blame, it's just what happened. I really do hope that you consider the advice that espinay2 has given you. You can't change the past, but you can learn from it. Give your new dog the best chance. Train him to be the best dog he can be - confident and happy, not anxious and stressed. And please please reconsider your stance on witholding vet care. It's irresponsible, and frankly, unkind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 (edited) It is most upsetting to have a dog struggle , I have seen it enough times .. and have also seen dogs calm right down and become much easier to position once owners go out of the consulting room....[/font][/color] This is so true with Smooch, my vet takes him in and I have to stay out other wise the vet can't do a thing with him. If I am not there no problems. Yep same with my Sarah - quite a performance if I'm in sight when they are taking her off for her blood tests - yet the moment I duck into an office and out of sight off she trots off quite happily - the truth is, me staying in her view as she goes off is the problem, not the vet or nurse or their handling of her... Edited April 7, 2012 by westiemum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeimMe Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 Percy got all the injections and yet seemed to need to go to the vet for several things. ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Of course he will...as would any dog. Dogs get infections, injuries and illnesses. The injections are vaccinations for distemper, parvo and the like, just as we receive immunisations for polio, diptheria and such. It doesn't mean we won't ever get an ear infection, break a bone or suffer from cancer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 Sometimes - just like with human doctors - the cause of the illness is not immediately obvious, and will need time to diagnose fully. and sometimes vets are totally incompetent and misdiagnose an illness that other vets diagnose immediately, but by then it's too late for the dog ( and owner ) And RL1 you would be horrified to learn how often this happens in human medicine too - I think the audit figure is 18,000 people die unnecessarily in hospitals across Australia each year... so mistakes will be made with animals too - human medicine and veterinary medicine are sciences but they are not exact and involve clinical judgement which can be fallible and differences in training and experience... and that's not a criticism - just a fact of the nature of the practice of veterinary medicine that we all have to deal with. Good vets like good human doctors will get it right most of the time - but not all the time - its the nature of it. My vet was devastated when Mac's right ACL repair failed and moved heaven and earth to right the situation - we worked together and I still would never go anywhere else. The key was the trusting and mature nature of our client/vet relationship. Percyalnity this is the nature of the game. Having animals for owners and for treating them for vets has enormous highs and terrible lows. Rarely do any of us escape that. The most important thing is find a vet you can work with and give them the opportunity to get to know you and your dog. In emergencies use the best available - and thats probably your local 24 hour emergency hospital. I'm really lucky - I go to a practice where I work with a couple of the vets - in Mac's case I joke that she does his front end and he does the back! And this is the key to my westies and my cats health and happiness - a good dose of sheer common sense doesn't go astray either. Sorry for the long post - but i wish you and your new dog a long and happy life together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Percynality Posted April 7, 2012 Author Share Posted April 7, 2012 Hi, it’s the OP again. I have been reading everything and I do thank you all for the heartfelt messages even if I’m not in agreement. I can’t reply to every point so I would like to put down some thoughts which may apply to some posted responses. I’m amazed this has become a thread about my grief and inability to understand things. That is an invention of several posters. My first post is about having no trust in the veterinary profession. The facts laid out are the facts, and explain why I do not trust vets. I don’t need counselling; the events were terrible and needed to be said. So please, it’s not about grief. The replies seem to heavily urge vaccinations. I see the merits, but I also see so much over servicing in all health care: Pap test, bowel screening, prostrate check. There are the essentials and then there’s an entire industry based on new threats and tests. My point is that Percy did all the regular vacs and also needed as many other visits yet my new dog has never needed a visit – I do worry that frequent visits set up a cycle of health needs. Was Percy getting problems precisely because he was in an environment of sick animals and diseases transmitted in the clinic itself? Maybe. BTW my new Maltese was a pet rescue and he was over 1 year old when we adopted him. All the first year vacs were done. Most of the replies whitewash the facts that I directly witnessed. My lack of trust in vets is due to the terrible circumstances of the lethal injection. To claim that euthanasia is peaceful is evidently not always true. I have heard that no pain is possible if there is already an IV drip – that is a well-intentioned myth at best and an outright lie at worst. If only I have known to demand a pre anaesthetic, so many things would be different now. Any vet should know better and shame on the entire profession for having such a common misconception. I plead to everyone to pass the message on, demand a pre-anaesthetic. Finally, pets are the new children. And I avoided using the word earlier because this is my most important point. My new child is smarter, happier and more fulfilled than the average pet because he is given every opportunity to be human. He is also completely calm and not anxious because he has been brought up so well. No insecurities at all. Laugh all you want, this subject renews my view that breeders and vets treat animals as stupid lower life forms because they are easier to manage that way. Breeds like Maltese cannot live without people (just the hair trimming alone!). It is our duty to give them the best possible life. Our new child has a very large vocabulary (no, not tone of voice and behavioural habit, but instant memory of the sounds of many words), the ability to plan and play complex tricks on us, and share a joke or emotion which is much more than fitting into a pack or learned response for rewards. The new cruelty is to treat an animal as stupid and inconvenient – I think many posters fit this description without realising it. So where does that leave me? My doubts about vets are pretty much confirmed from some posts. Most vets are not suitable. I intend to arrange for consultations with recommended clinics to ensure that I find one who understands that this is a child. If you do know of such a clinic with a matching philosophy to mine, feel free to PM me. I am prepared to go anywhere in Melbourne for the right clinic. Once again I do appreciate every post. We just can’t always agree. P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raineth Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 saying a dpg is a child is in my opinion de-valuing. Why does a dog have to be a child to be valued? A dog is of great value as a dog. It is wonderful the way it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest donatella Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 So what happens if your current dog needs vet treatment (freak accident, illness, cancer etc)? You will deny it pain relief, antibiotics etc because of 1 experience? In my eyes that makes you the bad guy, not the vets, you're being illogical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeeGee Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 (edited) I love my beagles. I even joke and say they are my kids. But they are not. They are not my children, they are my beagles. My dogs. My animals. When you call them your child , it completely wrong to me. I actually cringe. We can love our dogs completely, as strong as any love we have known, but they are always dogs, always animals. Also, all dogs should be able to be separated from theor owners without anxiety, without stress. If your dog can't be separated from you without displaying signs of anxiety, there is an issue. Edited April 7, 2012 by CharlieG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 Can I ask exactly what the vet did that you consider wrong and uncaring? You were offered an alternative for Percy to go to a hospital where more would and could be done - you declined and agreed for Percy to stay where he was. You also elected for Percy to be put to sleep after this time in hospital, without having his condition worked up to find out what was wrong. Percy was given a humane, lethal injection in an appropriate manner, through an IV catheter. Lethabarb is an anaesthetic agent. I fail to see what the Vet actually did that was so wrong and uncaring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 Some dogs just have more health problems than others. My GSD is rather accident prone - broke a leg at 6 months (just running around and collided with my other dog) has chronic skin problems (allergies) and has had a couple of other accidents. My other dogs have had a couple of accidents but nothing like the amount of vet visits as my GSD. I value my dogs because they are DOGS and not children! I have children (2) and the dogs are my sanity saviour at times :laugh: Dogs are amazing as they are - they can do some things we cannot totally comprehend and certainly things that we cannot do. I continue to learn new things everyday from my dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussielover Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 I am sorry for the loss of Percy I also consider my dog a member of the family and I know how hard it is to lose them. However, I seriously hope you reconsider your opinions on the veterinary profession. It is true that there are some vets out there that may lack compassion and even competence (as occurs in every profession), however to say that the majority of vets are incompetent and lack compassion is simply false. Even though it may not seem so, there is really very little money to be made in veterinary medicine and most people become vets because they love animals and want the best for their patients. To base your opinion of the whole profession due to seeing one vet does not seem logical or fair at all. No one can truly know what an animals feels when it is euthanized. What we do know is that the agent injected is relatively quick acting and better than the alternative of letting the animal suffer days or even months of pain if the owner elects not to continue with treatment and/or pain relief for the animal. You have not addressed why you did not take up the offer to pursue further diagnostics and treatment at a specialist/24hr clinic, and I must admit I do find it a little confusing that someone who considers their pet a family member would not at least want to get a diagnosis and prognosis before euthanising them. If you feel your vet has been truly negligent, you should contact the veterinary practitioners board in your state, who will then further investigate the matter. I do not think one poster has said or indicated a pet dog is "stupid and inconvenient" and you will find most posters here care deeply about their dog's health and wellbeing. I am not sure why you would post something quite so offensive???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Percynality Posted April 7, 2012 Author Share Posted April 7, 2012 Can I ask exactly what the vet did that you consider wrong and uncaring? You were offered an alternative for Percy to go to a hospital where more would and could be done - you declined and agreed for Percy to stay where he was. You also elected for Percy to be put to sleep after this time in hospital, without having his condition worked up to find out what was wrong. Percy was given a humane, lethal injection in an appropriate manner, through an IV catheter. Lethabarb is an anaesthetic agent. I fail to see what the Vet actually did that was so wrong and uncaring. Actually the vet only mentioned a 24 hour hospital after I said I would take Percy home, and she frankly made it sound like not a necessary thing. You insist on critising my every action and I am quite capable of blaming myself. The Lethabarb injection was painful, and you are incapable of understanding that. You are exactly the kind of vet I do NOT want to have to deal with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inevitablue Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 (edited) Agree Stormie, to me it seems the OP didn't want to spend the money when the dog needed to go to the specialist center. In her last post the OP states The new cruelty is to treat an animal as stupid and inconvenient – I think many posters fit this description without realising it. to me it seems as though it was an inconvenience for her to spend the money on a specialists opinion. What a hypocrite!!! Edited to add a quote - Did they offer to send Percy to one of the larger after hours hospitals for 24 hour monitoring? Yes, and I feel absolutely sick we didn’t take that option up. To be honest I got the feeling everything was about prolonging charges. I know that sounds callous where a life is concerned, but I distrusted them very much. Edited April 7, 2012 by Inevitablue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 My understanding is that some animals do go into an excitement phase initially when given lethabarb, and this must have been very upsetting to witness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 Percynality, most of the people that post here are pet owners, and do not breed dogs or work in the veterinary industry. The fact that dogs are happier and healthier when treated differently to how one would treat a child is very well known to anyone that has studied dog behaviour or who has a lot of experience with dogs. Your entire experience seems to be based on two dogs you have owned for less than two years, and a handful of vet visits. What value do you think we will get from you sharing your opinions on dog behaviour and the entire veterinary industry? There are people here that have had experience working with hundreds of dogs, who have spent years researching and reading about dog behaviour and welfare. People who love their pets like family and associate with other pet lovers. And they all have disagreed with you. Doesn't that make you think that possibly your theory about dogs being like children might be wrong? A dog that is treated like a child is more likely to display anxious or aggressive behaviour, and will have its owners trained to do what it wants. Which means that if ever you need to do something that the dog doesn't want, like hold it still during a veterinary procedure, the dog will struggle and scream. Not in pain, just in protest. I'm glad for your dog's sake you have decided to find a vet. There should be some that cater well to the type of person that does treat their dog like a child. If you let us know where you live people can recommend the best equipped vet hospitals in your area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussielover Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 Can I ask exactly what the vet did that you consider wrong and uncaring? You were offered an alternative for Percy to go to a hospital where more would and could be done - you declined and agreed for Percy to stay where he was. You also elected for Percy to be put to sleep after this time in hospital, without having his condition worked up to find out what was wrong. Percy was given a humane, lethal injection in an appropriate manner, through an IV catheter. Lethabarb is an anaesthetic agent. I fail to see what the Vet actually did that was so wrong and uncaring. Actually the vet only mentioned a 24 hour hospital after I said I would take Percy home, and she frankly made it sound like not a necessary thing. You insist on critising my every action and I am quite capable of blaming myself. The Lethabarb injection was painful, and you are incapable of understanding that. You are exactly the kind of vet I do NOT want to have to deal with. No one has said the lethabarb injection is always smooth and peaceful. Poor reactions are always possible, even with sedation before hand (although this generally decreases the likelihood). You chose to have Percy euthanised, lethabarb injection is considered a humane way to euthanase an animal. What was the alternative? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whippetsmum Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 I intend to arrange for consultations with recommended clinics to ensure that I find one who understands that this is a child. Latest post by OP above First post by OP: "Our new adopted child will never go to a vet" I know this is a really hard time, it's an anniversary of a very sad heartfelt loss for the OP. OP, are you now saying you will take your new little friend to the vet? If so, that's great, shop around for a vet that you can trust, the same as you would look for a doctor for yourself. Please don't rule out a vet because they don't quite "get" your views at first. So long as your vet and their staff have a love for animals, compassion, are skilled in what they do, and you can talk to them about your dog's health needs openly, and have your questions answered, it's a starting point. Over time, the vet may come understand exactly how you view your little one. My own vet is vey compassionate, caring and I trust him 100%, but he wouldn't refer to his patients as children, but he does understand how important all my animals are, have been and always will be for me. I do hope that you find a clinic that you can trust, I am so greatful that I have found a vet I can trust. (Sorry, i don't know how to get 2 quotes so I copied text from one post) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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