Skye GSD Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 (edited) Oh dear - BYB's with no idea of health consequences for bitch and/or future problems for prospective buyers of surviving puppies????? Edited August 14, 2012 by Skye GSD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Oh dear - BYB's with no idea of We don't know that , do we ? ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skye GSD Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Just had to ask the question :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minimax Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 (edited) Oh dear - BYB's with no idea of We don't know that , do we ? ..... They say they are a registered breeder, but Dogs SA doesn't list their prefix. Romanas website: http://polarbearkennel.webs.com/ (complete with pics of an "oops" litter!) Edited August 14, 2012 by minimax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkehre Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 The problem has been resolved, thank you for your answers - I actually just called my own vet (I am a breeder and have faster and cheaper access to vets than my mentoree) and my vet said that it can be quite 'normal' especially in large breeds that they have one or a few stillborn puppies in their litters, and also that birth giving can take quite a long time. (As far as I know the young mother hasn't had any contractions any more for the last two+ hours, so it seems to be over). "As long as the bitch behaves normally and does not show any signs of distress and will eat well and not have any unusual discharge from her vulva in the next few days, which needs to be monitored carefully," the vet says, "there is no need for medical action." I know this is going to sound harsh and I apologise for that... but judging by the content in your posts, IMO it sounds as though you should not be mentoring anybody and your mentoree should not be breeding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romana Posted August 14, 2012 Author Share Posted August 14, 2012 (edited) Some people are very quick with their judgments, aren't they? For your information, I am a registered breeder and have bred dogs for 25 years. And yes, it was the bitch with the weird heat cycle, and she was vet checked twice, once before mating and then short before the end of her pregnancy (by my vet, that's why this vet was the best one to talk to, and I fully trust her expertise), and no health fault was found. And of course, I was very concerned when I heard about the dead puppies. After this, I already suggested to my friends not to breed with their bitch any more. Sad things happen, and vets cannot always help, or predict what will or could happen. With that, I guess we can close this discussion. Thanks again for all constructive and well-meant reactions. P.S.: And regarding the litter that someone who has no idea of the circumstances calls an "oops" litter - there was no "oops" at all. The litter was planned, well considered and the best option available at that time. With the next approved stud dog registered with your club living some 1000km far away and impossibility to travel whenever you want some people have to find more practical solutions, be it within or outside of specific clubs. I believe it is very rude to call everyone who does not join a specific club and stick together with its members only, a BYB. I not supporting such a two-class society. Ethics are not a matter of club memberships, and healthy good quality puppies neither. But I'm leaving this discussion now, as I see that it is sadly attracting some nasties. Edited August 14, 2012 by Romana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 you yourself had concerns about this bitch's health status and still proceeded with the mating using your own dog? A vet cannot predict what can happen but to show such nonchalance at dead puppies is incredible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Oh dear - BYB's with no idea of We don't know that , do we ? ..... They say they are a registered breeder, but Dogs SA doesn't list their prefix. Romanas website: http://polarbearkennel.webs.com/ (complete with pics of an "oops" litter!) I know nothing of this breeder but just because someone isn't registered with Dogs SA doesn't make them a backyard breeder. There are other pedigreed registers out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baileys mum Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Hi Ramona, if your a registered breeder, you can ask Troy to allow you to have access to the breeders forum ( you just need to give him your prefix details )Alot of the registerd breeders don't come into general that often, so may not have seen your post...So it might be more helpful if you asked in the breeders forum for advice :) I hope the surviving puppies & the mother dog are doing well, I agree with the others that your friend should get the puppies & the mum checked by a vet asap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Oh..Ok .. I think I know the area where you live ..and AFAIK there are no reproductive medicine specialists with whom to speak ..... which makes things hard...and can mean you get inadequate information. ANY vet will have a problem diagnosing /advising problems with internal medicine over the phone .... but a repro vet at least has a more focussed view. I will again urge you to get the owner of this bitch to have her checked within 24 hrs, to avoid the chance of anything drastic happening ....Trust me , uterine interia /retained rotting puppies/infection .... I've seen it all, and wouldn't wish it on any dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merrirose Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Wow. I would have called the vet at the first dead black puppy be it at 1 am in the morning or not. IMO the second we choose to breed an animal thats where natural stops. It is our responsibility to interfere wherever needed and as soon as required once we have put our bitch in that position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Not wanting to cast aspersions here, but years ago when my crossbreed bitch was due to whelp, I had ALL of my local vet staff's home phone numbers in case we needed help... and ALL of them wanted to be called if needed... She gave birth to 9 big, fat, healthy pups between 7pm and 1am - and we had them all down to the vet at 8:30am the next morning for a post whelp checkup... and so all the vet staff could coo over them... *grin* Personally, I'd be very leery of a vet who didn't want to see a dog (and pups) immediately when there were still births and an exceptionally long whelp - which I would have thought 9 hours for 7 pups was... especally when 4 were under formed and still born. We have vets on call for our rescues if they come to us in pup... I don't understand why an ethical registered breeder wouldn't have planned for all possibilities, rather than coming onto an internet forum and asking for advice. T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romana Posted August 14, 2012 Author Share Posted August 14, 2012 I just can't help it, have to answer once again. Most of you are talking like metropolitan citizens. You are not taking into perspective the lifestyle in the countryside, far away from the big cities. In our area, there is one (1) vet on call during the night within a radius of 100 km. I and the bitch's owner live only 20 km apart and use the same vet, but I get a breeder's discount, that's why I do all the calls. I kept in close touch with the first-time breeder over the phone last night. If I hadn't children and if there was someone else to look after them at night, I would have been there in person. Both of us, I and the first-time breeder, haven't slept a minute last night, but attended the birth. I also inquired yesterday afternoon in our vet clinic who would be on duty and I made the vet on duty aware that there is a certain possibility that she might get an emergency call in the middle of the night. She is not a reproduction specialist, but a young lady from Ireland, just graduated from uni and enjoying an exciting Aussie experience. It costs about $300 per hour to call her out in the middle of the night, and the clinic's safety policy is that the patient must come to the clinic, and house visits can be made in very exceptional cases only. Anyway, we still would have called the vet and would have gone for the drive with the birthing bitch if she had shown any signs of suffering or despair. But the mother was very relaxed and, according to her owner, didn't even appear like being in pain while she pushed the dead puppies out. The reason why I asked on an Internet forum was, because I wanted to know whether anyone here knows what BLACK GUMS AND A BLACK TONGUE could possibly mean in such a dead puppy. In our breed, puppies generally have pink gums and tongues when born. I thought someone here on the forum would know about this particular feature and point me to the right direction, why those puppies died. In the past, I have got many amazing answers from some incredible people on Internet forums, in Australia and internationally, including things which my vets didn't know and which, upon further examination, proved right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merrirose Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 I just find it bizarre that things went so wrong and the breeder didn't even call the vet just to see if further action was warranted or at least go in today for a check up (Apologies now if she did). What if the black & stillborn pups were caused by infection which is putting the dam & other pups at risk. With infection every hour counts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
temperamentfirst Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 I just find it bizarre that things went so wrong and the breeder didn't even call the vet just to see if further action was warranted or at least go in today for a check up (Apologies now if she did). What if the black & stillborn pups were caused by infection which is putting the dam & other pups at risk. With infection every hour counts. Given it was mid afternoon when the first black tongued pups were born, I would have involved the vet - just not worth taking the risk IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Given that it took the bitch 15 hours to give birth to 7 pups, 4 of whom were stillborn, some malformed, and others displaying discolouration of gums and tongue - I would have thought that the owner of the bitch would have been banging on the doors of the vet clinic at the first possible chance - with mum and pups in tow for a complete and thorough checkup (including the dead ones). Regardless of the outcome, if the bitch was mine, I'd not breed her again. Oh - and for the record - I've lived rural (and even remote), and always managed to get an animal prompt vet attention when required... T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 (edited) The reason why I asked on an Internet forum was, because I wanted to know whether anyone here knows what BLACK GUMS AND A BLACK TONGUE could possibly mean in such a dead puppy. In our breed, puppies generally have pink gums and tongues when born. I thought someone here on the forum would know about this particular feature and point me to the right direction, why those puppies died. In the past, I have got many amazing answers from some incredible people on Internet forums, in Australia and internationally, including things which my vets didn't know and which, upon further examination, proved right. I know your area well ..and perhaps a specialist in Adelaide should have been consulted early on when the bitch was pregnant .. and then records of all testing etc could have been forwarded to the vet.It's not that long a drive... taking one or two dead pups to your vet would have given them a chance to SEE and examine the pups, and perhaps give a diagnosis. A POST WHELPING check could have been done today ... the vet is open .. and most vets, even young ones, can diagnose infections, and other problems associated with a long and mucky whelping. Oh..and we have attended a clinic in your town ..a 200 km round trip .. in the dark ....with a maiden bitch who was having trouble whelping .... luckily the drive there shook things up .. but she was checked and we were happy. Edited August 14, 2012 by persephone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andisa Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Give me country vet prices over city vets any day! I grew up in the country and now live in the outer suburbs where em c sections cost over $2000 around here. I have had a bitch at the em clinic in under 10 mins and they still never touched her for over an hour when they were QUIET, had I known they were not interested I would have driven less than the hour to a country vet who I know would not have wasted any time. I also have family and friends who are smack bang in the middle of no where and still manage to find a vet in the middle of the night when necessary. Since finding a vet is an issue I would advising that the bitch the op is referring to is never bred again since quality vet care in not at hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Since finding a vet is an issue I would advising that the bitch the op is referring to is never bred again since quality vet care in not at hand. There are two base clinics in one town ..one is a decently equipped/accredited hospital ..and this practice also runs clinics during daytime at other small towns... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andisa Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 (edited) Since finding a vet is an issue I would advising that the bitch the op is referring to is never bred again since quality vet care in not at hand. There are two base clinics in one town ..one is a decently equipped/accredited hospital ..and this practice also runs clinics during daytime at other small towns... Thanks pers. eta: for what it's worth, city traffic is no fun either when in a rush to the vets - I would much rather be driving an hour or so on country roads for a vet than getting caught in city traffic. Edited August 14, 2012 by Andisa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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