Just A Question I Saw On Another Forum

[Squidgy]

Hello :)

I saw this question on an american forum and was very curious to know if it is the same in this country.

Does a breeder legally have the right to take a dog off the buyer if the buyer chooses to breed it against the breeders wishes?? The american forum said no unless there has been a legal contract sighted by a lawyer or JP

is this the same in australia?? because I was wondering why there is so many BYB with good bloodlines if this was the case??

[Rebanne]

Hello :)

I saw this question on an american forum and was very curious to know if it is the same in this country.

Does a breeder legally have the right to take a dog off the buyer if the buyer chooses to breed it against the breeders wishes?? The american forum said no unless there has been a legal contract sighted by a lawyer or JP

is this the same in australia?? because I was wondering why there is so many BYB with good bloodlines if this was the case??

do they really have good bloodlines?

But most people would tell you contracts aren't worth the paper they are written on. Like locks on doors, the honest people are honest and the others aren't, locks and paperwork mean very little.

[Squidgy]

I think I worded it wrong, the people who buy dogs from reg pedigree breeders with champion pedigrees and have been told not to breed etc etc

and then do it anyway, they have bred with champion lines , thats what I am talking about lol

[SparkyTansy]

I think you can try and tell them not to breed, and you can certainly prevent it from happening via limit register etc, but if they are going to do it,they'll do it whether you take precautions/contracts or not.

I think "possession is nine tenths of the law" still applies to dogs so unless the breeder can somehow get hold of the dog, and it's also in their name, it'd be difficult to take back a dog.

[minimax]

Basically, once you sell something, it's no longer yours to say what can be done with it. Occasionally you may find a contract to be held up, but this is realllly rare.

So, no. If you sell a dog undesexed and someone breeds it - you're a bit silly for selling it undesexed if you didn't want it to be bred with!

[Rebanne]

I think you can try and tell them not to breed, and you can certainly prevent it from happening via limit register etc, but if they are going to do it,they'll do it whether you take precautions/contracts or not.

I think "possession is nine tenths of the law" still applies to dogs so unless the breeder can somehow get hold of the dog, and it's also in their name, it'd be difficult to take back a dog.

Limit register is like locks on the back door, it only stops the honest people

[GeckoTree]

Not in my eyes and legalities be damned.

Simple as that.

[dancinbcs]

Basically, once you sell something, it's no longer yours to say what can be done with it. Occasionally you may find a contract to be held up, but this is realllly rare.

So, no. If you sell a dog undesexed and someone breeds it - you're a bit silly for selling it undesexed if you didn't want it to be bred with!

Not silly at all when 99% of buyers desex their puppy by 6-12 months anyway on vet advise. There will always be a small minority of people who do the wrong thing and in some breeds it is more common than others but I have many others have never had a puppy buyer intentionally breed a litter against our wishes.

You will find that in many breeds the BYBs started with a dog from a registered breeder who wasn't selective at all about where their puppies went rather than one of the truly dedicated ones.

As to the original question, a lot of breeders now sell main register puppies in dual names and hold on to the original papers so if a dispute occurs they can take the dog back. If it is sold outright you cannot take it back unless you manage to get a very good legal contract signed at the time of purchase.

[Squidgy]

If only the contracts were legal......alot less BYBing I think.

:) thanks for answering my question , I am a real novice in the dog world lol

[Christina]

Once a dog has left your ownership you have little control on it being bred from or not, if it is not desexed. Many pedigree dogs with champion lines are sold on limited register & still bred from. The litter cannot be registered but some people do give a copy of the pedigree out with the pups. Its unethical but not illegal.

If there is a contract signed & witnessed by a JP or lawyer I would imagine it could hold more weight legally but would be interested to see the outcome if such an agreement ever went to court. Things can be a bit different here than in America.

[DeltaCharlie]

Also adding that where the law is concerned, ANKC paperwork means nothing. I remember hearing of someone who still had a dog in their name on the ANKC paperwork and wanted it back (can't remember why, possibly a custody or family issue) but because the other party had paid the money for it the dog was considered theirs in the eyes of the law. Just because it is in your name on the ANKC registration papers doesn't mean the dog is legally yours or that you have any say in what the legal owners do with the dog. I think thats why a lot of breeders nowadays offer money to refund part of the initial purchase price upon proof of desexing to try to encourage their new owners to desex when the dog is old enough. Certainly won't discourage those who want the dog for breeding purposes though, but might help to stop some of those people who don't really intend to breed but never get around to desexing (or can't afford it) from having accidental litters.

[DAVERI]

Many places offer desexing as young as 12 weeks now. so if the breeder had a issue with the dog being bred for what ever reason they really have the option to desex the dog before it leaves for its new home. this way any vacc or micro chipping can all be done at once. id bet they'd get a good discount if they have more than one booked in also.

[DeltaCharlie]

I would never advocate desexing that young, for my own dogs or for any that we have bred. Many other breeders would feel te same I imagine.

[Jed]

I have an agreement with puppy buyers. This does not prevent them breeding, but does prevent them on selling or euthing the dog, or treating it badly. I have been advised by a lawyer that it would stand up in the court where small claims are heard (which is where it would be heard, because of the value of the dog)

I have never had to take anyone to court, but I did threaten once to regain ownership of a dog which was being badly treated.

I haven't had anyone who said they wouldn't breed, breed, except someone who bought a male, and she talked to me before doing it.

I speak to new owners when their pup is about 12 months, to see if they have been desexed.

[DAVERI]

I just seen an ad some place rehoming a dog for its owners. they don't have to time to walk the dog and keep it fit and the new home needed to keep him fit and available for the person rehoming the dog (not the owners) to show the dog in events that its been entered. made me think of this topic. im not sure if its the case but has the person the right to rehome the dog if its not being kept to there standards for there own enjoyment of the animals if you understand me. i don't know if thats whats going on with the add i just read but got me thinking.

Jed do you get paperwork from a vet to say they have been desexed. i leased a horse to someone (a friend of a family member) once for breeding. ran into the lady regulary at the local feed store asked how the mare was going got told over and over she was good. then by luck i was looking on a site and came across my mares name for sale. called the person, she had resuced the horse a few months before hand from someone that had got her from a horse sale and left her in a small paddock with 20 other horses no feed or water. that lady lied to my face over and over.

[LizT]

I have an agreement with puppy buyers. This does not prevent them breeding, but does prevent them on selling or euthing the dog, or treating it badly. I have been advised by a lawyer that it would stand up in the court where small claims are heard (which is where it would be heard, because of the value of the dog)

I have never had to take anyone to court, but I did threaten once to regain ownership of a dog which was being badly treated.

I haven't had anyone who said they wouldn't breed, breed, except someone who bought a male, and she talked to me before doing it.

I speak to new owners when their pup is about 12 months, to see if they have been desexed.

I have the same in my sales contract......and a "desexing contract" in which I promise to refund $100 on presentation of a desexing certificate from their Vet...no one has had to take me to court for dishonouring my part of the agreement and not refunding the $100.00 yet. :D

[Jed]

Daveri

Jed do you get paperwork from a vet to say they have been desexed. i leased a horse to someone (a friend of a family member) once for breeding. ran into the lady regulary at the local feed store asked how the mare was going got told over and over she was good. then by luck i was looking on a site and came across my mares name for sale. called the person, she had resuced the horse a few months before hand from someone that had got her from a horse sale and left her in a small paddock with 20 other horses no feed or water. that lady lied to my face over and over.

No, but I do keep in touch with the new owners. Sometimes they phone me to say the dog has been desexed, sometimes I find out when I phone them. My biggest problem has not been with people breeding, it has been with people not doing as they said - or rehoming the dog to someone I wouldn't even consider. I think the rehoming contract keeps the dog safe.

I try to sell to people who obviously are wanting a pet - and who are likely to give it a lifetime good home. The contract is simply a safety net, and something to make people think before they give the dog to someone else.

Personally, I don't really have a problem with people breeding ---- as long as they are prepared to do the research, continue to treat the dog as a pet, and home the pups well. My problem with breeding is 40 dogs shut in a shed. This is what my contract prevents.

Or, it has done so to date. I am pretty sure it would stand up in court .... but even if it didn't, it has so far worked 100% and I am happy with that.

[Sparassidae]

It has never been tested under Australian law.

However, we do have this consumer gaurantee:

Clear Title, free from securities and charges, uninterrupted possession

http://www.accc.gov....Id/956994#h3_66

Some people misunderstand clear title - you can not advise the person they can not do x with the object. You can not limit what the person can do with x object. It is against the law. You can let the consumer know beforehand if the title is not clear, but a clear title means someone else has a stake in the object such as a bank with a car. It does not apply to "breeder contracts".

I believe they're unenforcable. We looked into it with our rabbits and I was looking into it for our snakes and the ACCC gave me pretty clear answers. Any contract limiting what the person can do with what we sell is not worth the paper it's written on.

A contract can not void consumer gaurantees. Ever.

Edited September 16, 2012 by NotMidol

[LizT]

Daveri

Jed do you get paperwork from a vet to say they have been desexed. i leased a horse to someone (a friend of a family member) once for breeding. ran into the lady regulary at the local feed store asked how the mare was going got told over and over she was good. then by luck i was looking on a site and came across my mares name for sale. called the person, she had resuced the horse a few months before hand from someone that had got her from a horse sale and left her in a small paddock with 20 other horses no feed or water. that lady lied to my face over and over.

No, but I do keep in touch with the new owners. Sometimes they phone me to say the dog has been desexed, sometimes I find out when I phone them. My biggest problem has not been with people breeding, it has been with people not doing as they said - or rehoming the dog to someone I wouldn't even consider. I think the rehoming contract keeps the dog safe.

I try to sell to people who obviously are wanting a pet - and who are likely to give it a lifetime good home. The contract is simply a safety net, and something to make people think before they give the dog to someone else.

Personally, I don't really have a problem with people breeding ---- as long as they are prepared to do the research, continue to treat the dog as a pet, and home the pups well. My problem with breeding is 40 dogs shut in a shed. This is what my contract prevents.

Or, it has done so to date. I am pretty sure it would stand up in court .... but even if it didn't, it has so far worked 100% and I am happy with that.

I only give the $100 refund on presentation of a Veterinary desexing certificate. The desexing agreement is not enforcable in law..but I'm not oblidged to give the refund without it. That, coupled with following your instincts, interviewing potential buyers and asking many questions, is about the best you can do without infant desexing.

Personally I think it would do the animal less harm to have a litter than infant desex.

Edited September 16, 2012 by LizT

[Jed]

I agree with you Liz.

Notmidol

Clear title, free from securities and charges, uninterrupted possession

Sellers guarantee that the goods come with a clear title, unless you told the consumer otherwise before the sale, and do not carry any hidden securities or charges. Sellers also guarantee that no-one has a legal right to take the goods away or prevent the consumer from using the goods.

From the link you gave.

My buyers are aware of the conditions PRIOR to purchase, they have signed off on them. If they don't like them, they can walk away.

And the conditions of my agreement do not prevent the buyers having full use and rights to the "product".

What they in fact do is remind the buyer that I am interested in the welfare of the dog, and if they do not want it, I would like them to return it to me.