Colour Question?

[espinay2]

My favourite site is http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/

Edited October 5, 2012 by espinay2

[Kavik]

There is this one for Kelpies as well :)

http://www.hnrworkingkelpies.com/Coat_Colors.html

[Steve]

Just a genetics question

Can two black and white (mostly black with minimal white) dogs produce brown and white puppies and have a whole litter that is mostly white?

Just wondering what the likelihood of that happening is?

Thanks

border Collies?

http://www.mastamariners.com/border_collie_colours_page-02.html

[mixeduppup]

That's great thank you. I shall now spend all day reading up on colour genetics instead of doing my assignment lol

[GeorgieB]

Also, I don't think this fits the situation you mean, but sometimes ee Red border collie pups can be mistaken as all white by inexperienced breeders. Particularly if they are a very light red. :)

I find colour genetics facinating!

Edited October 6, 2012 by GeorgieB

[piper]

The other thing with the ee gene and inexperienced breeders is it masks the true colour so the dog is genetically black or chocolate etc and the ee gene prevents this colour from showing.

[OSoSwift]

There is a really good Whippet site. I will add it when I am on the PC

[asal]

My dilute kelpie has a terrible coat, so that's something else to worry about (possibly dilution alopecia)

I gather your dog is blue?

its proper title according to my vet is Blue Gene Alopecia.

Bought a really pretty silver blue long coat chihuahua pup decades ago and when he dropped his puppy coat his adult coat was

the only long coat that came back was the bottom half of his tail his legs, halfway up his sides and under his throat.

the entire top of him from muzzle tip to tail was covered only in very short soft cotton wool like 'stuff'.

that was about 36 years ago, since then ive seen every variation in between the weirdest thing is in the chi's any way it only seems to be really noticable on the longcoats. although over the years ive noticed it only occurs in one in four blue pups, so would tend to think an additional gene is responsible, yet although i never used any blues that were affected. Stringy who did have it along the top of this tail, rump, and to his shoulders making him look like a 1.2 kg lion.

Snowy (White, chocolate, although that only shows in the chocolate nose) Stringy (Blue fawn) Dancer (gold and white)

got into mischief with lace and their two blue and tan and blue cream boys had coats to the ground by the time they were 4?

so its a darned lottery

although my vet said he has seen so badly affected blue dobermans and staffies both being smoothcoats.

yet ive never seen a smoothcoat chi with differnt length or overly short coats, very odd

nor have any of mine that did have it develop any skin dryness , bit oily compared to the rest of the skin and in really hot weather could look a bit scurfy which i put down to the shorter coat the skin could sunburn easier so kept them out of the sun with shadcloth n problem solved

being a recessive blue can pop up in the most unexpected places.

look at the border collie 200 years of killed pups if one turned up other than black and white and finally now all those amazing colours hiding in the population are being allowed to live and what stunners they are

Edited October 6, 2012 by asal

[Weasels]

My dilute kelpie has a terrible coat, so that's something else to worry about (possibly dilution alopecia)

I gather your dog is blue?

she's a fawn (dilute red) which I understand is slightly less associated with the dilution alopecia than the blue but still quite prevalant.

She has a much thinner and wiry coat on her sides which won't 'shine' no matter how good the coat around her neck looks. She's had this forever so unlikely to be a thyroid issue. It isn't too bad though, doesn't affect her quality of life much since if she gets cold at night she just finds a warm human to curl up against ;)

[mixeduppup]

Does she shed more than your Black and Tan?

[asal]

a friend had a working sheepdog and she had two genes for blue and two for chocolate.

the resulting colour was the same as the weimariner?

is that their genetic base colour?

I will ask him if he has any photos of her.

sadly some sick motorist ran off the road and killed her while she was keeping the flock off the road, you cant fathom the minds of some people

there were out there to graze the grass along the side of the road as it was during the drought. She had been moving them along as they ate it down every day so both the sheep and her knew the drill.

a neighbour saw it so it wasnt as if she was near the road nor were the sheep.

[Weasels]

Does she shed more than your Black and Tan?

God no :laugh: Weez sheds his own bodyweight every fortnight! :p

Chess sleeps on my bed every night but you'd barely know it from how little hair she leaves behind. But have Weez on the bed for 5 mins and he leaves a dog-shaped fuzz pile...

Edited October 6, 2012 by Weasels

[dancinbcs]

look at the border collie 200 years of killed pups if one turned up other than black and white and finally now all those amazing colours hiding in the population are being allowed to live and what stunners they are

Where on earth did you get the idea that anything other than black was killed? There have always been coloured Borders and they are there in the pedigrees, often called different descriptive names, but clearly not black/white. A few breeders used to drown the ee reds at birth but not many. They used to be called sable and were just sold as pets but the colour can be traced in the Aust lines for about 80 years.

The original Aust breed standard listed black/white, black/tan and black/white/tan because they were the colours of the dogs they had imported and it distinguished them from the Kelpie infusion. Over the years more colours were added as they turned up and even if they weren't shown they were still registered and bred as working or performance dogs. It was only the introduction of the stupid ANKC rule to only main register listed colours in all breeds that led problems registering Borders as their correct colour. All the overseas standards allow for all colours.

Edited October 6, 2012 by dancinbcs

[Weasels]

That's awful Asal

From my understanding the dilution gene and the colour gene are separate, so a weim-coloured dog would be dilute and black (??) I think!

Edited October 6, 2012 by Weasels

[dancinbcs]

That's awful Asal

From my understanding the dilution gene and the colour gene are separate, so a weim-coloured dog would be dilute and black (??) I think!

Wei colour is dilute brown, called fawn in Kelpies and lilac in Border Collies.

Dilute black is blue in most breeds but in some it is called slate. Dilute Border Collies do not suffer dilution alopecia, except occasionally on the ear tips as puppies, so are perfectly normal healthy dogs.

[Weasels]

Wei colour is dilute brown, called fawn in Kelpies and lilac in Border Collies.

Dilute black is blue in most breeds but in some it is called slate. Dilute Border Collies do not suffer dilution alopecia, except occasionally on the ear tips as puppies, so are perfectly normal healthy dogs.

oh I always thought Weis were blue! I learnt something :)

[HazyWal]

I have no idea about genetics but I found it interesting when I did a search on my greyhounds which came up with their parents and siblings.

Stan is blue. Both parents are blue and he was one of 8 pups that were all blue.

Maddie is white with a small brindle patch above her eye and on her bum. Her mum was black and dad was fawn. She is the only white dog in a litter of 6. 4 blacks, 1 blue brindle and 1 white.

[asal]

That's awful Asal

From my understanding the dilution gene and the colour gene are separate, so a weim-coloured dog would be dilute and black (??) I think!

Wei colour is dilute brown, called fawn in Kelpies and lilac in Border Collies.

Dilute black is blue in most breeds but in some it is called slate. Dilute Border Collies do not suffer dilution alopecia, except occasionally on the ear tips as puppies, so are perfectly normal healthy dogs.

so what IS the DILUTE acting on the brown?

from my knowledge of chi's chocolate is a dilute completly seperate to the actual body colour.

so on a sable or red dog its only action is to change the nose and the eye rims from black to chocolate but on a black based dog diluted to chocolate.

Blue is a completely seperate dilute with no relation to chocolate. so if you put a double dilute chocolate to a double dilutue blue. since none of the puppies will receive two copies of either dilute.

none will display either chocolate or blue.

all will have black eye rims n nose if a sable or red or black or black and tan.

But if a dog inherits TWO chocolate dilute genes and TWO blue dilute genes, then you get what is called in cats Lilac.

what it is called in dogs does not seem to be agreed on.

my vet calls it taupe?

to me it looks like a silver cat although sun bleaches it so the coat tends to take on a reddish hue after a while.

personally i suspect the 'dilute' you are referring to acting on the chocolate of the Weimariner is the blue dilution, although you do not name it. Is that so?

[espinay2]

a friend had a working sheepdog and she had two genes for blue and two for chocolate.

the resulting colour was the same as the weimariner?

Yes, both the 'dilute' gene (d) and the 'liver' gene (b) (it is called different things in different breeds - liver/brown/chocolate but is the same thing) which creates 'isabella' (sometimes called lilac/fawn)

Both of these genes are recessives so the dog needs to carry two dilute genes and two liver genes (one of each from each parent) for it to be expressed.

This is why it is not an overly common colour (though is the common colour for Wei's)

so what IS the DILUTE acting on the brown?

The dilute gene is the same for all, it is just what it is acting on that changes. What other genes a dog has changes the effect the dilute has.

from my knowledge of chi's chocolate is a dilute completly seperate to the actual body colour.

so on a sable or red dog its only action is to change the nose and the eye rims from black to chocolate but on a black based dog diluted to chocolate.

Important to note that the gene for liver (liver and black are eumelanin) is completely separate to the gene for red (phaeomelanin). Red may be diluted slightly by a dilution gene but there is not usually much effect.

Dogs can have a coat that looks entirely sable or recessive red but have dilute nose colour. The dog is dilute (dd), but the genetic colour of the hair masks it except for where there is no hair and it is visible on the skin.

Edited October 6, 2012 by espinay2

[piper]

asal, Dancnbcs has a better grip on this than me and will no doubt explain it better but here is my attempt :)

Chocolate is recessive to black. So to be choc they need 2 chocolate genese. Dilute is a separate gene that affects the way either colour is expressed. So a black dog with the dilute genes will appear as blue. A chocolate dog withe the dilute will be lilac which is genetically the same as a fawn kelpie and a Weimaraner.

I have never heard of 2 different "colour" dilutes rather a single gene that affects the way the dog's actual coat colour is expressed. More than happy to stand corrected - colour genetics is fascinating and confusing and the fact different breeds have different names for the same thing does not make it easier :)