Training Etiquette

[Canine Coach]

Wondering about proper training etiquette & how you would answer/ advise new people about handling the following, without alienating ANYONE

I recently had an Obedience, friend, who has a new pup/young CCD dog in training, ask me without sarcasm or malice, if there is a current trend in competition circles, towards "Socialization by Stalking".

I asked her to give me some examples of what she meant.

She answered "the type of behaviour that if one acted this way to another, at Safeway, would cause security to be called"

She gave me the following examples:

1-she had been quietly training her dog on lead, in a large not crowded open space, when without any greeting, & without permission being sought, for her dog to be used as a distraction, found another Obedience competition dog/handler, almost on top of her with their dog's, nose up her dog's bum, multiple times.

2- Dog being let off leash in on lead area, & allowed to run up to her dog, &/or run up to stick their nose into &/or jump on her dog's crate, while her dog was crated

3-Dogs being walked to & fro dozens of times, in a short space of time, less than 2 meters past her crated or in car confined dog

4- dogs on lead being allowed to go to the end of a 2 meter lead & explore the inside of her training bag

All of these scenarios have happened while she was either at a sanctioned Dog Training Club, or on the grounds of an ANKC establishment, or having a one on one run through

On the 2 occasions when she stopped training & politely questioned the dog/handler teams, involved why they were doing this, the answers given by the various people were

1- "MY dog needs to learn to work with more distractions"

2-"YOUR dog needs to be proofed to distractions"

3-MY dog is OK don't worry, if your dog snaps at him, he will not bite back"

4-"MY dog needs to be socialized"

5-MY dog is friendly

Anyway I came across this article again

Very valuable Dog Behaviour article by Suzanne Clothier

CTRL + click to follow the link below to what is one of the best articles Dog Behaviour I have ever come across

www.http://flyingdogpress.com/content/view/42/97

Would love to hear differing points of view from list members about the above

[murve]

mmm good questions CC, I thought The rules are stipulated "ALL DOGS MUST BE ON LEASH AT ALL TIMES, ULESS IN OFFLEASH ENCLOSED AREA, OR UNDER TRIAL CONDITIONS, COMMAND FROM JUDGES"

I think it is very inconciderate from the bystander to do such an act while the owner of the pup was training.

I was watching a couple of ladys training for Rally from a distance at Kcc, I politely went up & asked if it was ok for me & my dog watch from a safe distance not to distract, they had said it was fine & could I help by being a distraction for one of their dogs. I was happy to help :D

[Kavik]

I think not everybody understands etiquette or the dangers of letting dogs come up without permission. On numerous occasions at one club I have attended I have had to tell people not to allow their dog or puppy to approach dogs that are tethered - it is so dangerous to allow a pup to run up to a tethered dog, anything could happen! It is also one reason I prefer to crate rather than tether my dog.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

It is not possible to look after your dog's interests and not alienate anyone, ever.

The etiquette boils down to "don't interfere with other people and their dogs" but not everyone is blessed with insight about their own behaviour. If you want to protect your dog, you have to crack through the self-interested, the clueless and the bullies.

Answers to questions

1 - Well find someone who is willing to work with you, my dog and I are not available.

2 - My dog, my decision

3 - I don't care, keep him away

4 - See question 1

5 - See question 3

Talk to some show people, it's defend your dog against interference or give up showing in the show ring. You start out trying to be nice and then you realise you have to make sure you are taken seriously. Good luck!

Edited to insert missing verb!

Edited October 14, 2012 by SkySoaringMagpie

[Tumbleweed]

Great thread CC- will be watching this with interest to see the responses. I really enjoyed the article too.

I guess when I think on it, I've been quilty of using another trainer as a distraction...although never a dog tethered/crated/in a car and certainly not close enough to distract the other trainer or their dog. If their dog appears distracted I move away. But it is something I will think about more in the future!

[pie]

My Pet hate is people who let their dogs right up to the door of a dog crate - do they not think how terrifying it can be for the poor dog inside who feels trapped? This is why I keep my dogs in the car wheever possible because it happens so often.

The other thing that annoys me is people leaving their dogs tetherd on a long lead (sometimes even ringside) and said dogs lunging and yapping at every poor handler and dog trying to walk past to get to their ring! I wish their was a rule that you weren't allowed to leave your dogs tethered at a trial, personally.

[Diva]

It is not possible to look after your dog's interests and not alienate anyone, ever.

Yep. I just politely ask them to take their dog away, and if they don't do it I get firmer and louder or turn my back and walk off with my dog.

I've even had an obedience instructor send a whole class of unruly beginners over to my dog, sitting quietly on leash, because 'it would be good for them to socialise with a big dog'.

Tough luck, unless I know you or you get my specifc permission beforehand, my dog isn't available for your training.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Diva

[Sparassidae]

I intentionality walked my GSD 2m (or less) from cars and such, especially those with dogs. Sometimes I'd do 2 or 3 passes. If the other dog flared up or his/her body language demonstrated anything anxiety or fear I'd move away though.

Was a part of my training. I don't consider it to be bad etiquette. That said, this wasn't at "dog training grounds" but in the street, at private trainers and other such locations.

[RubyStar]

I won't train/walk my dogs past other dogs as a distraction unless the other party knows and has ok'd it. A group of us usually work in close proximity anyway as they are all trusted with each other.

I will on occasion train my dogs at the local shops for distraction. Heeling and stuff along the verandah around people. I won't brush past anyone close enough to invade their personal space. I usually find people stop to watch, and being a Labrador the "general public" make comments about the guide dog in training

[huski]

I will on occasion train my dogs at the local shops for distraction. Heeling and stuff along the verandah around people. I won't brush past anyone close enough to invade their personal space. I usually find people stop to watch, and being a Labrador the "general public" make comments about the guide dog in training

Having a lab is probably useful in some ways then as people can be more courteous about approaching a guide dog as most people know you shouldn't without permission?!

I've had more general rudeness from people in public areas who aren't dog savvy than I have when we used to go to club for training. I don't know if it's because people in general don't understand you are trying to work with your dog and have less general knowledge about training than people at a club.

I don't get as many people approaching or bringing their dogs over with the young pup I'm training now though, people think she looks a bit mean/crazy/scary, I never had that problem with my husky or beagle :laugh:

Edited October 18, 2012 by huski

[The Spotted Devil]

Wishful thinking huski! I've been out with guide dog instructors (and been led blindfolded by a dog in training) and the idiots who think it's fun to whistle, call and generally try to distract the guide dog is rather horrifying.

Oooh what puppy do you have?!!!!

[huski]

Wishful thinking huski! I've been out with guide dog instructors (and been led blindfolded by a dog in training) and the idiots who think it's fun to whistle, call and generally try to distract the guide dog is rather horrifying.

Really!! I thought enough of the general public knew not to approach guide dogs that they'd show more common sense?!

Oooh what puppy do you have?!!!!

Well I was waiting for an ESS but timing didn't work out and now I've ended up a Malinois to train :laugh:

Edited October 18, 2012 by huski

[RubyStar]

I don't think the general public possess common sense :laugh: But I do feel a tad less self conscious training at the shops or other busy public areas due to the fact I own labs and people generally think guide dog. Funnily enough, more so with Ruby (yellow), with Millie (choc) I get more weird looks :laugh:

[huski]

I don't think the general public possess common sense :laugh: But I do feel a tad less self conscious training at the shops or other busy public areas due to the fact I own labs and people generally think guide dog. Funnily enough, more so with Ruby (yellow), with Millie (choc) I get more weird looks :laugh:

I wonder what would happen if you whacked an 'in training' harness on them or similar :laugh:

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Our training club has a rule - that we're not allowed to let our dog greet another dog without permission from the other owner and yet I still get bewildered looks from other members when I ask permission. Usually their dog is all over mine by then having dragged them over.

We have a bandana rule too - ie if the dog is wearing a bandana - it means "give space" or "keep your dog away". I'm always forgetting because their dog is usually the one who wants to greet mine, but I try to respect it because it's best to "premack" dog greetings - ie all dog greetings should be with the handler's permission or not at all, dogs should not be stealing greetings or reinforcement.

There's quite a few handlers trying to train their dogs to make a calm and polite greeting and allowing them to "steal" a rude bouncy in your dog's face greeting is bad for both dogs.

"no" means "no" and that might be sad that the dog is missing out on some fun, but it can also save a dog's life. And I am stunned by the number of dog owners who just don't get it.

I haven't seen dogs allowed to jump onto any other dog's crate. I know certain doggy friends will invade my dog's crate but the owner and I and my dog do not have a problem with this. And my dog will invade her crate too. Ie it's with permission.

Dogs off lead in an on lead area is generally not allowed except for warm ups and competition or instructor supervised training. It does not include harrassing other dogs or stealing their stuff or invading their space.

3-Dogs being walked to & fro dozens of times, in a short space of time, less than 2 meters past her crated or in car confined dog

At dog competitions there is generally not much space especially in the car park. There is no way the cars at my club get parked two metres apart. 1m if you're lucky. And I've had to ask people to move so I can get the door open so I can get my dog out. Same with crates. If you need more space it helps to have a tarp or blanket and a tent or pen that defines where you want to exclude people. And at really big shows - you will still have to watch that people don't try to sneak a pat from the other side. 2 metres all round is not going to happen at shows unless you mark it out.

4- dogs on lead being allowed to go to the end of a 2 meter lead & explore the inside of her training bag

This is rude. A tub with a secure lid instead of a bag might help prevent this. If I've got food in the bag - I organise it so that dogs walking by cannot casually sniff it. Second crates are good. As are eskies with secure lids or those big storage tubs or tool boxes.

If I have a problem with the behaviour - I don't usually ask why. I usually just yell "OI - get your dog away from my stuff". Or I yell at the dog and then I yell at the owner for letting their dog get into my stuff. But I don't have to do this at our dog club or competitions. It's mostly something that happens at the beach where a lot of people with NFI "walk" their dogs. And some beaches I avoid because the concentration of idiots and badly behaved dogs is too much for me. I guess I'm fine with being rude or loud with people who are rude and dangerously thoughtless.

It's tempting to tell the idiots you have chocolate or dog medicine in your bag that they should not let their dog steal.

It is interesting though - that I'm most likely to be given a wide berth when I'm practicing heel work or stays with my dog - in the public non-club off lead spaces. And if the other person's dog does come and say hello - they apologise for being distracting. But I'm not looking for people to give me a big space - other than the legally required "no harrassing" - in public off lead parks or beaches.

[corvus]

It is not possible to look after your dog's interests and not alienate anyone, ever.

Well, it might be if you are smart about releases and can accept that you win some and lose some and sometimes the best training outcome is to know when to cut your losses and move on. I have had to do all my training, or the majority of it, in dog parks and on the beach and have only recently been going to a club as well. When I started training this way it was very difficult, but using pretty much nothing but strategic releases, I got my dogs to the point where they will generally work through another dog coming and sticking its nose in my treat bag, for example. We just work around them, usually. If they get intense I shut the treat bag, release my dogs, and walk away. Training etiquette or lack thereof becomes a moot point. Either your dog can work through it or you cut the training session short and walk away. Erik isn't the easiest dog to handle and certainly can be reactive, but it doesn't really make any difference. It still boils down to whether he can work through something or not.

I have never had someone follow me after I've moved away or explained (politely) that I have to move my dog away because he doesn't really like theirs. They don't seem to take it personally. We certainly have been pestered. Just last week Erik eventually "had words" with a dog that was deliberately blocking his access to me and growled at him a few times when he tried to come close. There was not much I could do given it wasn't my dog and I couldn't figure out who owned him. Erik was not especially anxious, just really peeved. His response was appropriate and controlled and afterwards he ignored the offending dog as long as it stayed away.

At times I've had to just use LAT or something to get us through, or my dog just loses it anyway. It happens, and it's not always because someone else was being discourteous or ignorant. Sometimes a flock of birds will land in the area, or an errant breeze will alert the boys to a carcass nearby, or a rogue wave threatens to get my precious Nordic boys wet. Whatever the case, it's not a problem. Ultimately my dogs' critical distances are my responsibility to manage, not anyone else's, and their ability to work through distractions is a product of the foundation work I've put in and continue to put in.

BTW, Canine Coach, might I have seen some of your dogs a month or two back at the poodle specialty at KCC? I was there learning about stays, tracking, and heeling. For science! :D Poodle specialties seem like a good place to learn about such things.

[Canine Coach]

I agree. It IS extremely important to proof dogs to distractions of all kinds, in time, when each is ready & not a moment before. It is important to proceed with a step by step training plan, carefully,& knowledgably, at each dogs pace.

I also assist other people to train their dogs. Those dogs range from beginners, to those being rehabilitated from dog attacks, to those almost trial ready to those already competing.

For ANY dog obviously in training, to be crowded, interfered with, intentionally intimidated, or annoyed by another dog & handler team, without getting permission to do so, is not "proofing". It is an act of either thoughtlessness, lack of consideration & respect for other's rights, OR an intentional attempt to annoy &/or intimidate.

When one has just spent over 1 hour setting up a Rally course, or a UD ring, it is not all that convenient to just walk away, when a dog/handler appears & acts in a rude or inconsiderate manner

Yes, you are correct, I was at the Poodle Club with my own 2 dogs

ROXY won Highest Score In Trial with 195 from Open & Violet won UD with 193

[whitka]

I don't think the general public possess common sense :laugh: But I do feel a tad less self conscious training at the shops or other busy public areas due to the fact I own labs and people generally think guide dog. Funnily enough, more so with Ruby (yellow), with Millie (choc) I get more weird looks :laugh:

I wonder what would happen if you whacked an 'in training' harness on them or similar :laugh:

Even if there in a harness it doesnt seem to make a difference. My cousin is legally blind and has a guide dog. It shocks me the amount of times people will try and pat the dog or try and feed her or let there kids run up to the dog. Most times they will just go up without even asking and my cousin cant even see them so has no idea whats happening. She tries and not goes out in public without my uncle now becuase of this.

[Keshwar]

I don't think the general public possess common sense :laugh: But I do feel a tad less self conscious training at the shops or other busy public areas due to the fact I own labs and people generally think guide dog. Funnily enough, more so with Ruby (yellow), with Millie (choc) I get more weird looks :laugh:

I wonder what would happen if you whacked an 'in training' harness on them or similar :laugh:

Even if there in a harness it doesnt seem to make a difference. My cousin is legally blind and has a guide dog. It shocks me the amount of times people will try and pat the dog or try and feed her or let there kids run up to the dog. Most times they will just go up without even asking and my cousin cant even see them so has no idea whats happening. She tries and not goes out in public without my uncle now becuase of this.

This is sad. The idea of guide dogs is to provide independence, yet b/c of ignorance/stupidity on behalf of some members of the public, it seems that your cousin is actually loosing her independence.

[murve]

just wondering with Training Etiquette, you would think our furkids had learnt some it with the trialing we do

on a I was with Nik (another Doler) at a trial yesterday, we had our dogs off leach zooming around having a ball, before the trials started, on our way back to the club rooms I was bulldozed by our 3 dogs from behind, poor girl was so shocked I can still see your expression, all she could say it was like watching a Classic Cartoon the way I went down, landing on my left hip. So I missed out on putting my 2 through their classes , fully understanding the club was concernd, off to hospital I went. When I got back to the grounds 2nd round of presentations were about to start.

I on a good note No Broken hip, just a lot of muscle bruising & a bit of a limp :laugh:

So Nik I do hope to catch up with you again soon, dont worry dogs will be dogs. I am still laughing about it