Simply Grand Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 (edited) I should clarify, im not asking for a discount.. If its not suitable i wont be buying the pup. Simple as that. Thank you for clarifying that :) I sort of think that either a puppy is suitable to be sold as a pet to a particular home - in your case a family with kids - or it isn't. That includes a reasonable assessment from the breeder that the pup's temperament will be suitable for your home based on the info available to them, and a reasonable assumption that the pup will grow up healthy, again based on info at the time. I feel like the breeder should either be confident of that and therefore sell you the pup at the same price as the rest of their pups, or decide that the pup needs a different sort of home - maybe more suited to a timid pup, and maybe more familiar with what the jaw issues may entail. I wouldn't have a problem with the breeder saying to the right home that they will sell for less as there will likely be additional costs over pups lifetime, I just don't feel that comfortable with them sort of saying this pup isn't really what you're after but if you take I'll give you a discount... I hope that makes sense. ETA - on the flip side, I also would not be comfortable with a buyer sayings the pup's not quite what we're looking for but we'll take it for a discount Edited to fix a weird autocorrect! Edited January 24, 2013 by Simply Grand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 I would keep looking. A pet quality dog should have sound temperament with sound conformation. A prospective show pup should have sound temperament with sound and correct conformation without cosmetic faults. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpha bet Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 All pups should be of equal quality with regard to temperament and health - including testing. The only reason a show quality pup is sold for a higher price is that the breeder feels this is a pup for show and/or breeding quality, therefore must also be on a full register with the pedigree association - therefore they are selling not just a pup but the potential for ongoing breeding..... The pet should be sound and happy just that the breeder is unsure that this dog will have future breeding worth.... There are many many beautiful quality pups (of breed worth) in pet homes.... a pet price does not mean an inferior product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rascalmyshadow Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Both issues you are describing are major and if it were me I would run a mile. Bad jaw alignment means expensive vet visits later on and a weak temperament can't be fixed. $2000 is a lot of money for any dog especially one that already has problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckandsteve Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 My friend got a cat discounted because the mum had biten part of its tail off, i guess the breeder was having trouble selling it and my friend was a good home so I didnt really have a problem with it. She was getting one for 800 and they offered her this second one for 200 so massive discount OT so breeders if you have a dog with a fault and no one wants to buy it what do you do? Just wondering, we always have had rescues so i just assumed pure breed with faults would cost less no real knowledge about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Crazy Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 (edited) No discount in the world would ever tempt me to buy a timid pup. I own a fearful dog - I love her very much and she has improved greatly but it has taken years of work. Never again. If someone tells you these issues can be fixed by socialization they're wrong. Agree 100 % with this. I own 2 BC's , both overshots & one with behavioural timidness issues. The mouth issues has caused no problems at all with either of mine. However the fearful/timid/reactiveness nature of my girl has caused lots of ongoing issues , concerns & heart ache for us. I adore her but given the choice to own a timid dog or not with what I know now. NEVER AGAIN.... IMHO I would keep looking. There will be a puppy come along with sound temp. which is a MUST if you kids. 1 cm is a big overshot in such a small dog too. And if your curious, no I didn't pay full price for either of my guys nor did I ask for discount. They were both offered to me by very well known & repected breeders at a discounted price due to their incorrect bite. Good luck with what ever you choose to do :) Edited January 24, 2013 by BC Crazy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missymoo Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Wait what breed are we talking about so we can get a Picture of if this type of temprement fits the breed.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakway Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Wait what breed are we talking about so we can get a Picture of if this type of temprement fits the breed.. Agree. Many purchasers have never read a breed standard. In many cases the breed standard can say aloof and many purchasers can not tell the difference shy and aloof. Mouths can correct, the bottom jaw is the last of the dog to finish growing. I am not saying the above statement is correct in this case, but it is something worth while to keep in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 (edited) Wait what breed are we talking about so we can get a Picture of if this type of temprement fits the breed.. Assume that the pup is definitely showing timidness/nervousness. In what breed is that correct or desirable and who would want to own a dog like that? Edited January 24, 2013 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Wait what breed are we talking about so we can get a Picture of if this type of temprement fits the breed.. Assume that the pup is definitely showing timidness/nervousness. In what breed is that correct or desirable and who would want to own a dog like that? Yes. Breeds can range from exuberant to aloof in their interactions with people. But being frightened is not in any standard, and it can have far-reaching consequences for the whole of the dog's life. At that age it's probably all nature and not nurture. But if there are things in the breeder's home that have made a normal dog fearful of a child, then that is even more reason to steer clear. Baby puppies need a non-stressful environment to do their exploring and sleeping for their brains to develop properly. You don't have to spend that much money to get a good pet quality dog, but if you are going to spend that much, you should be able to find a good pup. It's at the higher end of what most pet puppies would cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
becks Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 I would keep looking. A pet quality dog should have sound temperament with sound conformation. A prospective show pup should have sound temperament with sound and correct conformation without cosmetic faults. and just what should a breeder do with any that aren't born with perfect conformation?? Wait what breed are we talking about so we can get a Picture of if this type of temprement fits the breed.. Assume that the pup is definitely showing timidness/nervousness. In what breed is that correct or desirable and who would want to own a dog like that? It has been said the pup stays away from one child - to me that doesn't mean the pup is timid, could just as easily mean the kid has been mean to the pup and it has learned to stay away from child. If pup is generally otherwise fine, then it really wouldn't worry me to buy such a pup. As for the mouth issue, if it was that bad 1cm at that age, then i would offer a bit of a discount, but as others have said, it often causes no issues in later life and if undershot, it can correct, mouths can do odd things for several months or more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 I would keep looking. A pet quality dog should have sound temperament with sound conformation. A prospective show pup should have sound temperament with sound and correct conformation without cosmetic faults. and just what should a breeder do with any that aren't born with perfect conformation?? No such thing as perfect. A dog that does not have sound conformation should not be sold as a pet at all. It is a 'faulty product' that should not be on the market. It depends on the fault as to the best course of action for the breeder, some things are 'wait and see'. Then when the pup matures they can be reassessed. Some serious faults mean that sadly the dog must be put to sleep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 By sound conformation, I mean one that is healthy enough so that the dog can live at least ten years (hopefully longer) pain free. A dog that is slightly over-sized or undersized, or who has a boof head, can still be sound enough to be pet quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 A bad mouth can cause serious dental problems in a mature dog as years of wear grinds the lower canine teeth slowly into the upper palate. Wait and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckandsteve Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 I would keep looking. A pet quality dog should have sound temperament with sound conformation. A prospective show pup should have sound temperament with sound and correct conformation without cosmetic faults. and just what should a breeder do with any that aren't born with perfect conformation?? No such thing as perfect. A dog that does not have sound conformation should not be sold as a pet at all. It is a 'faulty product' that should not be on the market. It depends on the fault as to the best course of action for the breeder, some things are 'wait and see'. Then when the pup matures they can be reassessed. Some serious faults mean that sadly the dog must be put to sleep. Wow i would really hope a timid pup would not be PTS I have a foster who is reactive, i decided the case wasnt bad enough to warrant PTS but i havent been confortable to rehome him. He has probably cost us $3000 in training, enclosures (cant be trusted alone with my pup) etc but thats what i took on when i decided to foster. I would hope breeders would see their responsibility to pups they cant rehome, and if they cant keep a pup with issues stop breeding. I am not against breeders but i believe if you breed you rescue your own should they need it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 I agree that if a breeder is aware of a significant behavioural or health problem in one of their pups they should keep it themselves or give/sell at a discount to someone they are sure knows what the issue will entail over the pup's life and are prepared to take it on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 I would keep looking. A pet quality dog should have sound temperament with sound conformation. A prospective show pup should have sound temperament with sound and correct conformation without cosmetic faults. and just what should a breeder do with any that aren't born with perfect conformation?? No such thing as perfect. A dog that does not have sound conformation should not be sold as a pet at all. It is a 'faulty product' that should not be on the market. It depends on the fault as to the best course of action for the breeder, some things are 'wait and see'. Then when the pup matures they can be reassessed. Some serious faults mean that sadly the dog must be put to sleep. Wow i would really hope a timid pup would not be PTS I have a foster who is reactive, i decided the case wasnt bad enough to warrant PTS but i havent been confortable to rehome him. He has probably cost us $3000 in training, enclosures (cant be trusted alone with my pup) etc but thats what i took on when i decided to foster. I would hope breeders would see their responsibility to pups they cant rehome, and if they cant keep a pup with issues stop breeding. I am not against breeders but i believe if you breed you rescue your own should they need it Rescuing your own is less likely to be necessary if you don't place timid pups as pets in the first place. Just like you are doing with your foster dog, this breeder could hold on to and work with the timid puppy in the hope it will improve to the extent it can make somebody a good pet and have a happy life. At the same time the breeder could keep an eye on the pup's mouth, and if it doesn't start to improve they might be able to have some corrective surgery done to solve the problem. If the problems are fixed or resolve themselves over time, then the dog can be sold. It just isn't fair on a new dog owner (let alone one that has paid $2K) to fall in love with a new pet puppy where there is an obvious risk that it may be prone to severe health or behaviour problems in future. This risk needs to be borne by the breeder, and can be minimised with good breeding practices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckandsteve Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 I would keep looking. A pet quality dog should have sound temperament with sound conformation. A prospective show pup should have sound temperament with sound and correct conformation without cosmetic faults. and just what should a breeder do with any that aren't born with perfect conformation?? No such thing as perfect. A dog that does not have sound conformation should not be sold as a pet at all. It is a 'faulty product' that should not be on the market. It depends on the fault as to the best course of action for the breeder, some things are 'wait and see'. Then when the pup matures they can be reassessed. Some serious faults mean that sadly the dog must be put to sleep. Wow i would really hope a timid pup would not be PTS I have a foster who is reactive, i decided the case wasnt bad enough to warrant PTS but i havent been confortable to rehome him. He has probably cost us $3000 in training, enclosures (cant be trusted alone with my pup) etc but thats what i took on when i decided to foster. I would hope breeders would see their responsibility to pups they cant rehome, and if they cant keep a pup with issues stop breeding. I am not against breeders but i believe if you breed you rescue your own should they need it Rescuing your own is less likely to be necessary if you don't place timid pups as pets in the first place. Just like you are doing with your foster dog, this breeder could hold on to and work with the timid puppy in the hope it will improve to the extent it can make somebody a good pet and have a happy life. At the same time the breeder could keep an eye on the pup's mouth, and if it doesn't start to improve they might be able to have some corrective surgery done to solve the problem. If the problems are fixed or resolve themselves over time, then the dog can be sold. It just isn't fair on a new dog owner (let alone one that has paid $2K) to fall in love with a new pet puppy where there is an obvious risk that it may be prone to severe health or behaviour problems in future. This risk needs to be borne by the breeder, and can be minimised with good breeding practices. Agree with this, they should be dealing with the issues the pup presents, not on selling or PTS when the issues do not yet warrant it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsaremyworld Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 I agree with some of the others - if someone is selling a dog as pet quality, this may mean that they do have small imperfections which stop them from being shown - but that does not mean that they will be any less a great dog with all the benefits of being pedigree. I would not reduce my pet price for a fault that would only affect it's show career - i.e the jaw. However, temperament is not a cosmetic issue, and you need to assess whether your family can adequately provide for that animal's issues. First you need to decide why the dog is timid - it could be breed specific, or a phase, and the way animal's are introduced to certain things. For example, it may just be a bit timid with the kid's because it is overwhelmed. If the issue is more severe I would not be selling the pup to a home with kids, or a first time dog owner, and instead keep the dog myself and/or give it to a home where I know the people can deal with that pup's particular issue. As I don't believe in FTGH, I would charge a price, but it would be discounted. As for the comment 'A dog that does not have sound conformation should not be sold as a pet at all. It is a 'faulty product' that should not be on the market. I think this comment is referring to more serious 'faults' such as hip displasia and patella's rather than things like coat colour, eye placement, ear sets etc all of which form the conformation of the dog. At least I hope that's the gist of the comment. I don't neccesarily believe in PTS dog's with some of these complaints - In alot of cases faults can be repaired, and then can make great pets to people, as long as the purchaser is aware of the fault, and nothing is trying to be hidden. So I don't think it's fair to say that dogs without sound conformation should not be on the market. There are lots of situations out there where dogs with repaired faults can go on to make fantastic, loving pets, to aware and consenting owners. In many cases out there there are homes available who are only too willing to care for a dog with special needs (albeit it's not the most common thing, they do exist). As for the price these people are charging for a 'pet dog' $2,000 seems quite high for a dog on limited registration. I know there are some breeds out there that do attract this price tag, but most are not that high. Before you buy ANY pup from this breeder I would try to ascertain what the average pet price for that breed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julesluvscavs Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 (edited) Im curious to find out what breed of dog it is ? :) Edited January 25, 2013 by Jules❤3Cavs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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