A Cautionary Tale About People Getting Things Very Wrong

[Dame Aussie]

But sorry, you have to admit there IS a major problem with bull breeds

But there really isn't, when you take into the account how many 'bull breeds' [we're talking about a few breeds and, I assume, crosses here] there are that are never a problem and don't make the headlines. I'd love to see accurate statistics that show this country has a major problem with bull breeds, as opposed to a major problem with education and community safety.

especially when they seem to be attracting a lot of incompetent and irresponsible owners

Every dog, of any breed, attracts incompetent and irresponsible owners.

Yes, bull breeds are very popular in general. And the fact they're not in the news multiple times a day attacking someone or something just shows how the majority of owners are capable, educated, and well equipped, and how the majority of dogs are not a problem. We have to remember that bull breeds and their crosses [again, so many breeds in that] aren't some magical unicorn species of the dog world that need extra special ownership. They are dogs, first and foremost. What people need to look at is individual dogs within breeds that may need specific environments and owners.

There's no point looking at the pounds to tell us where there's a problem. A huge percentage of dogs in the pounds are crossbreeds of unknown genetics. And then there's the fact a huge percentage of crossbreeds in the pounds are happy, friendly, well-adjusted dogs that go on to find homes, which clearly shows the problem was never with the dog in the first place.

So no, I don't believe we have a major problem with bull breeds in this country. I also don't believe we have a major problem with dangerous dogs, considering the percentage of attacks across the board is so low.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Perhaps I can put someone in touch with you to discuss this situation Plan B because they really don't see it in the same way, you could try and convince them but they've already had too many bad experiences. They, like many people I speak to, are amazed at the popularity of the bull breeds, so many of whom are not that great with other dogs. They are equally shocked by the people who seem not to worry about them being off the lead.

I've just met them for the first time, they are perm. residents from another country and own small dogs but are having to move away from a particular area due to all the dog problems, mainly bull breed types.

I'm not making it up for the hell of it, I seriously wish it wasn't true.

[Lee-Ann]

1370857265[/url]' post='6223645']

I state again, as per my previous post, that I take each dog on face value - I actually wanted to adopt one a few years ago for instance.

But sorry, you have to admit there IS a major problem with bull breeds - especially when they seem to be attracting a lot of incompetent and irresponsible owners - and it needs to be acknowledged and managed, somehow. They have become extremely popular and many are not that great with other dogs. I'm surrounded by people with them who don't have gates, any or high enough fencing and walk them off the lead - even those who have shown dog on dog aggression.

I have plenty of anecdotes and stories that I don't even bother to share but I thought this was an important story - and it's not all about the fact that they were bull breeds. If they'd been JRTs I would have relayed the same story. The only difference is that I wouldn't be getting all the personal attacks.

What I'd like to know is whether bull breeds are getting better or worse over time, and if they are getting worse or not improving, whether the bad element is concentrated in some lines. I am no expert on bull breed history, but it does seem to me that the average temperament has probably gotten more social since the days when dogfighting and bull and bear baiting were popular sports. If the bad name is coming from, say 10% of the individuals, and the temperament problems are concentrated in certain lines, the solution is to regulate the problem lines, not the entire breed(s). The Staffy is neck and neck with the Labrador for numbers of pedigree registrations in Australia. I can't believe SBTs would be that popular if most of them were inherently problematic.

Many people know little or anything about the dogs they pick. I speak to people regularly in my rescue work and one of the common things I'd told by the owners of Staffies is that they were picked because they were great with people. People haven't thought to worry about whether or not the dog is good with other dogs and rock up to the dog park ....

Most people are normal dog owners, they don't always have enough experience to know what to look for in a dog. This is why there is so much dumpage of dogs generally, because people didn't know that the lovely border collie they picked wouldn't be happy sitting in a garden 24/7.

The pounds are full of bull breeds and crosses thereof, maybe it's because their owners didn't know they'd need good fencing and can't or won't fix it, I'd be interested in some research being done.

Agreed, lots of owners out there that don't spend time educating themselves, learning and understanding what their animal needs or requires to be a content and stable pet. sounds to me like there are a lot of unstable, uneducated owners out there.

[mantis]

But sorry, you have to admit there IS a major problem with bull breeds

But there really isn't, when you take into the account how many 'bull breeds' [we're talking about a few breeds and, I assume, crosses here] there are that are never a problem and don't make the headlines. I'd love to see accurate statistics that show this country has a major problem with bull breeds, as opposed to a major problem with education and community safety.

especially when they seem to be attracting a lot of incompetent and irresponsible owners

Every dog, of any breed, attracts incompetent and irresponsible owners.

Yes, bull breeds are very popular in general. And the fact they're not in the news multiple times a day attacking someone or something just shows how the majority of owners are capable, educated, and well equipped, and how the majority of dogs are not a problem. We have to remember that bull breeds and their crosses [again, so many breeds in that] aren't some magical unicorn species of the dog world that need extra special ownership. They are dogs, first and foremost. What people need to look at is individual dogs within breeds that may need specific environments and owners.

There's no point looking at the pounds to tell us where there's a problem. A huge percentage of dogs in the pounds are crossbreeds of unknown genetics. And then there's the fact a huge percentage of crossbreeds in the pounds are happy, friendly, well-adjusted dogs that go on to find homes, which clearly shows the problem was never with the dog in the first place.

So no, I don't believe we have a major problem with bull breeds in this country. I also don't believe we have a major problem with dangerous dogs, considering the percentage of attacks across the board is so low.

Don't waste your time PlanB, some posters on here have an agenda & will continue to bash Bull Breeds.

[HazyWal]

But sorry, you have to admit there IS a major problem with bull breeds

But there really isn't, when you take into the account how many 'bull breeds' [we're talking about a few breeds and, I assume, crosses here] there are that are never a problem and don't make the headlines. I'd love to see accurate statistics that show this country has a major problem with bull breeds, as opposed to a major problem with education and community safety.

especially when they seem to be attracting a lot of incompetent and irresponsible owners

Every dog, of any breed, attracts incompetent and irresponsible owners.

Yes, bull breeds are very popular in general. And the fact they're not in the news multiple times a day attacking someone or something just shows how the majority of owners are capable, educated, and well equipped, and how the majority of dogs are not a problem. We have to remember that bull breeds and their crosses [again, so many breeds in that] aren't some magical unicorn species of the dog world that need extra special ownership. They are dogs, first and foremost. What people need to look at is individual dogs within breeds that may need specific environments and owners.

There's no point looking at the pounds to tell us where there's a problem. A huge percentage of dogs in the pounds are crossbreeds of unknown genetics. And then there's the fact a huge percentage of crossbreeds in the pounds are happy, friendly, well-adjusted dogs that go on to find homes, which clearly shows the problem was never with the dog in the first place.

So no, I don't believe we have a major problem with bull breeds in this country. I also don't believe we have a major problem with dangerous dogs, considering the percentage of attacks across the board is so low.

Don't waste your time PlanB, some posters on here have an agenda & will continue to bash Bull Breeds.

Sorry Mantis but I disagree. I have the only breed that is muzzled by law, try walking a couple of greyhounds that if attacked cannot even defend themselves, you reckon your nervous?

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

But sorry, you have to admit there IS a major problem with bull breeds

But there really isn't, when you take into the account how many 'bull breeds' [we're talking about a few breeds and, I assume, crosses here] there are that are never a problem and don't make the headlines. I'd love to see accurate statistics that show this country has a major problem with bull breeds, as opposed to a major problem with education and community safety.

especially when they seem to be attracting a lot of incompetent and irresponsible owners

Every dog, of any breed, attracts incompetent and irresponsible owners.

Yes, bull breeds are very popular in general. And the fact they're not in the news multiple times a day attacking someone or something just shows how the majority of owners are capable, educated, and well equipped, and how the majority of dogs are not a problem. We have to remember that bull breeds and their crosses [again, so many breeds in that] aren't some magical unicorn species of the dog world that need extra special ownership. They are dogs, first and foremost. What people need to look at is individual dogs within breeds that may need specific environments and owners.

There's no point looking at the pounds to tell us where there's a problem. A huge percentage of dogs in the pounds are crossbreeds of unknown genetics. And then there's the fact a huge percentage of crossbreeds in the pounds are happy, friendly, well-adjusted dogs that go on to find homes, which clearly shows the problem was never with the dog in the first place.

So no, I don't believe we have a major problem with bull breeds in this country. I also don't believe we have a major problem with dangerous dogs, considering the percentage of attacks across the board is so low.

Don't waste your time PlanB, some posters on here have an agenda & will continue to bash Bull Breeds.

If you call not sticking my head in the sand an agenda, then I agree. You will always think that I'm bashing Bull Breeds because you take everything so personally.

I have a Jack Russell here - they are not the easiest or most well behaved dogs in the world, I'll be the first to admit it. I could say she'd never kill a rat but I'd be lying, a rat would not be safe in her company. However she poses zero danger to any other dog.

Edited June 15, 2013 by dogmad

[korbin13]

Are there just more bull breeds in our community than other breeds? It may also have something to do with this forum. I never knew there was such a dislike to bull breeds until joining this forum And I have two. Most of my friends have a least one and usually a kelpie type dog or a SWF.

The last dog attack to make the news in our regional WA town was a SBT being disembowelled by a husky. It went silly on facebook but it was all anger for the husky owner not having his dog secured, breed wasn't brought into it.

[The Ark]

Wow - when I started reading this thread I certainly didn't see it as a bull-breed-bashing exercise. I saw it as an inexperienced-owners-buying-litter mates-and-not-training-or-fencing-them-properly thread. I would have seen Am Staff as interchangeable with any other breed when it comes to dogs not being properly trained or contained.

I think a lot of people on here need to get over their own sensitivities.

[mixeduppup]

I've seen other threads on here with people talking about non bull breed dogs and their owners in a negative light that don't get this reaction. It's sad that we fight instead of actually reading what was said and seeing that it wasn't attacking the breed at all but rather serving as a warning to the situation in general.

Please don't get angry with each other *spreads the love*

[mantis]

But sorry, you have to admit there IS a major problem with bull breeds

But there really isn't, when you take into the account how many 'bull breeds' [we're talking about a few breeds and, I assume, crosses here] there are that are never a problem and don't make the headlines. I'd love to see accurate statistics that show this country has a major problem with bull breeds, as opposed to a major problem with education and community safety.

especially when they seem to be attracting a lot of incompetent and irresponsible owners

Every dog, of any breed, attracts incompetent and irresponsible owners.

Yes, bull breeds are very popular in general. And the fact they're not in the news multiple times a day attacking someone or something just shows how the majority of owners are capable, educated, and well equipped, and how the majority of dogs are not a problem. We have to remember that bull breeds and their crosses [again, so many breeds in that] aren't some magical unicorn species of the dog world that need extra special ownership. They are dogs, first and foremost. What people need to look at is individual dogs within breeds that may need specific environments and owners.

There's no point looking at the pounds to tell us where there's a problem. A huge percentage of dogs in the pounds are crossbreeds of unknown genetics. And then there's the fact a huge percentage of crossbreeds in the pounds are happy, friendly, well-adjusted dogs that go on to find homes, which clearly shows the problem was never with the dog in the first place.

So no, I don't believe we have a major problem with bull breeds in this country. I also don't believe we have a major problem with dangerous dogs, considering the percentage of attacks across the board is so low.

Don't waste your time PlanB, some posters on here have an agenda & will continue to bash Bull Breeds.

Sorry Mantis but I disagree. I have the only breed that is muzzled by law, try walking a couple of greyhounds that if attacked cannot even defend themselves, you reckon your nervous?

Say what, haven't you heard of BSL? Kenny had to be muzzled in public by law once BSL came in. That's the reason I only walked him late at night.

If BSL had have come in before the attacks on him, he would have been badly injured, because the last two dogs that attacked him, were as big as him.

I also only walk Cougar late at night, because if she is attacked & fights back, she will get the blame because of the hatred of her breed.

[alpha bet]

I think the real lesson behind this thread was more about how there are so many factors to take into account when it comes to considering the success of a family getting a new pup. Unfortunately this family in question ignored most of them.... After the last 20 years of running a dog training school and seeing the good, bad and indifferent I have learnt much about how to breed and choose families to give the best chance of success with any pups.

Consider the following factors and you see how much falls back to the breeder - which no amount of government regs will help with regard to BYB or Puppy Farms.

1. The temperament of the parents - considering all the factors that suit the breed in question.

2. Raising the pups - correct feed and also building social skills being introduced prior to rehoming.

3. The most important Choosing the Families - considering the breed traits and choosing the families that offer the lifestyle that these puppies need.

4. Helping to educate the families - and that means NOT SELLING TWO puppies to the same family and also taking into account the age and status of the existing family dogs and being prepared to reject a home if the environment or circumstances are not appropriate for the breed traits.

5. Inexperienced families to get involved in training programs to build the skills their lifestyle needs within the community≥

6. Most families with new babies or a few preschoolers are probably too busy and rushed with all the human activities to offer even one puppy the proper training and development let alone TWO......

Sometimes families might not fit all the above factors however they achieve success, but when you consider if most or none of these factors are involved there is a really high chance that the pup will grow up and either end up at a rescue centre or causing havoc to the family or community at large.

This thread didnt come across as a breed thing, its just that there are likely more families getting the bull breeds thru BYB and puppymills, thus not able to go thru the process that most ethical breeders build - much greater chance of the problems.

Edited June 15, 2013 by alpha bet

[HazyWal]

Ah yes Mantis I have heard of BSL but I'm not talking about BSL, ALL greyhounds have been muzzled since the law came in in 1927 so we've always had the muzzling issue. My dogs have skin like tissue paper, a scratch to most dogs can be a gash and stitches to a greyhound so regardless of the size of the dog that attacks my two they are going to be badly hurt.

[Wobbly]

I find the muzzling of greyhounds an incredibly bad law. If you feel your own particular greyhound needs it, then fine muzzle away. But this should be an individual owners' choice, based on the behaviour of the individual dog, to have it as a blanket law seems manifestly unfair and unjustified. What's your view on this Stan's Mum?

I am always pretty happy when I see greys walked without muzzles, I am not sure if their owners are doing this illegally or perhaps there is some legislative muck they waded through to remove the restriction from their particular dogs?

[HazyWal]

I find the muzzling of greyhounds an incredibly bad law. If you feel your own particular greyhound needs it, then fine muzzle away. But this should be an individual owners' choice, based on the behaviour of the individual dog, to have it as a blanket law seems manifestly unfair and unjustified. What's your view on this Stan's Mum?

I am always pretty happy when I see greys walked without muzzles, I am not sure if their owners are doing this illegally or perhaps there is some legislative muck they waded through to remove the restriction from their particular dogs?

Hi there Wobbly! how's the gorgeous Jarrah?

The law has been changed in QLD, SA, VIC and now finally NSW that you can have your greyhounds assessed by an approved GAP Greenhound assessor and if they pass they can be muzzle free in public. They must wear a green "greenhound" collar to show that they have been approved. Personally I don't think that it should be up to the owners choice, like any breed there are stupid owners that think their grey is fine, not all of them are and as nothing will outrun a determined greyhound their way of thinking can be downright dangerous. I haven't got my two greencollared as I simply can't afford it but to be honest I doubt Maddie would pass. She is a very nervy girl and can be quite reactive if dogs rush her so as a responsible owner I will keep her muzzled. Stan would pass in a heartbeat, he loves everyone :D So if you see a grey unmuzzled it should be wearing a bright green collar, if it's not wearing it they are probably doing it illegally, which is not doing greyhounds any favours IMO.

Sorry to go OT dogmad.

[Wobbly]

Hey Stan's mum, Jarrah is great. :D I am trying to turn her into an obedience dog, I don't know if it will work but it's fun trying. XD

Interesting to read! Thanks, I hadn't known about the green collar, so never looked for it before.

[HazyWal]

Hey Stan's mum, Jarrah is great. :D I am trying to turn her into an obedience dog, I don't know if it will work but it's fun trying. XD

Interesting to read! Thanks, I hadn't known about the green collar, so never looked for it before.

I think you will do well at obedience, she is a smart cookie and look how far you've come from when you bought her home to the well adjusted canine citizen she is now? Considering if I remember our converstaion rightly you didn't intend on getting a bull breed, you should be very proud of the hard work you have both put in, she is a beautiful girl...and I can say that confidently as I have met her :)

[Wobbly]

It's certainly very interesting food for thought for me that you say that about Greys, as I respect your opinion as a Greyhound person.

Haha initially I set my sights on various breeds, including a Pug and a Weimeraner (friends have had awesome dogs of these breeds), but these dogs are (mercifully for their breeders and fanciers) very rarely found in pounds. The choice in the pound when I went was 2 Rotties (I have had friends with awesome Rottis, so these were a real contender for me), but both were male and I wanted a female, also they were both HUGE, I mean gigantic. There was 2 huskies in there as well, they're beautiful, but all the hair and grooming is a bit much for me. There were 2 bully breeds, Jarrah and another little brindle girl. I met Jarrah first (she was the only one I met), she was completely insanely hyper, and I fell in love. When I came back home, my husband asked "what's the dog like?" I told him "she's totally nuts and hyper and I love her" XD I actually think that's all here on DOL, because I first signed up here when I was waiting for the pound to desex her for me. In retrospect I would have been far better to go through a rescue, still would have ended up with a Bully cross probably though, since they are pretty much the most commonly homeless dogs (or so it seems to me), but I didn't know about the advantages of going through rescue then.

Edited June 16, 2013 by Wobbly

[Wobbly]

Wow, I just found a google cache of my first thread here, unfortunately I could only find the one page, which isn't the first page. From memory the first page is me saying something along the lines of "She's crazy insane hyperactive, I need help to make her a good dog." or words to that effect. XD

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:FOjjMj7WFQ4J:www.dolforums.com.au/topic/125390-help-socialising-my-new-amstaff-pup-central-coast-area/page__st__45+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au

That was the very day I discovered that I really needed some specialist help and education to learn to manage my dog effectively, especially around other dogs. The obedience class I spoke of on that page, was unfortunately not suitable for us since at the time Jarrah was just so beyond my control. Now she's fantastic around other dogs, but I had to see a behaviourist to learn how to make that so. I wouldn't let her play with an other dog ever now, it would undermine the calm polite greeting behaviour I have conditioned in, and Steve K9pro, who educated me on this issue said at the time - NEVER Off leash with other dogs, never excited, enforce calm, so that's the ultimate clincher for me on that subject.

I am a walking, talking poster child for the need for education about dog behaviour - for both new dog owners, and the general populace. Given the amount of dogs in society, it seems to be a basic neccessity we are missing.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Wow, I just found a google cache of my first thread here, unfortunately I could only find the one page, which isn't the first page. From memory the first page is me saying something along the lines of "She's crazy insane hyperactive, I need help to make her a good dog." or words to that effect. XD

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:FOjjMj7WFQ4J:www.dolforums.com.au/topic/125390-help-socialising-my-new-amstaff-pup-central-coast-area/page__st__45+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au

That was the very day I discovered that I really needed some specialist help and education to learn to manage my dog effectively, especially around other dogs. The obedience class I spoke of on that page, was unfortunately not suitable for us since at the time Jarrah was just so beyond my control. Now she's fantastic around other dogs, but I had to see a behaviourist to learn how to make that so. I wouldn't let her play with an other dog ever now, it would undermine the calm polite greeting behaviour I have conditioned in, and Steve K9pro, who educated me on this issue said at the time - NEVER Off leash with other dogs, never excited, enforce calm, so that's the ultimate clincher for me on that subject.

I am a walking, talking poster child for the need for education about dog behaviour - for both new dog owners, and the general populace. Given the amount of dogs in society, it seems to be a basic neccessity we are missing.

Congratulations on all the hard yards you've put in to achieve a fantastic pet. You are so right that proper training is what many owners just don't do, it's vital if you are going to have any dog but especially a larger breed. Noone likes being hauled along the road and yet they often don't seem to equate that as an issue that they should have fixed with some proper training!

[Wobbly]

haha it's certainly very interesting to compare the Jarrah of then, with the Jarrah of now. Two very different dogs! Two very different Wobblies too, I have certainly learnt a vast amount in the last 5 or 6 years. It's a huge shame the people in the OP weren't a bit dedicated to their dogs, they missed a wonderful opportunity. The Bull breeds are absolutely amazing, so funny, friendly and charming, I swear these dogs have a sense of humaour too, when I laugh, Jarrah with her big wide open mouth looks for all the world as if she were laughing too. But you only get out what you put in, you need to work with the dog to bring the best in them out.