Dry Food / Kibble

[raineth]

Fang, If you are really interested in this stuff it would be better to find proper scientific papers and not rely on David Gillespie.

Try Artemis if it ticks all the boxes. If it doesn't agree with him then I really think you should look into raw.

You don't need time to cook, you don't cook anything - its raw :)

Most of the stuff you need (if not all) can be found at your local supermarket. Variety is the key. Things like hearts, liver, kidneys, chicken feet, chicken necks are all good food for dogs and very cheap.

[FANG]

Fang, If you are really interested in this stuff it would be better to find proper scientific papers and not rely on David Gillespie.

Try Artemis if it ticks all the boxes. If it doesn't agree with him then I really think you should look into raw.

You don't need time to cook, you don't cook anything - its raw :)

Most of the stuff you need (if not all) can be found at your local supermarket. Variety is the key. Things like hearts, liver, kidneys, chicken feet, chicken necks are all good food for dogs and very cheap.

David Gillespie provides references to the scientific papers that his books are based on!

Thank you for the advice. I am going to look into trying out Artemis and Vets All Natural... I think the best thing will be a mixture of kibble and raw food.

[persephone]

Fang, If you are really interested in this stuff it would be better to find proper scientific papers and not rely on David Gillespie.

Try Artemis if it ticks all the boxes. If it doesn't agree with him then I really think you should look into raw.

You don't need time to cook, you don't cook anything - its raw :)

Most of the stuff you need (if not all) can be found at your local supermarket. Variety is the key. Things like hearts, liver, kidneys, chicken feet, chicken necks are all good food for dogs and very cheap.

Good post :)

[sheena]

Hmmmmmm....there is LOTS of "scientific research" out there. What about the "scientific research" that goes into making a top quality dog food. Scientific Research is a bit like every book you pick up...always titled "worlds best seller". Still don't understand why you don't just collect the road kills down there....they are in abundance & as someone has already said..you don't cook RAW. You are so concerned with your dogs diet, yet you don't cook or yourself..

[mac'ella]

I've been feeding my dogs on Scotty's Pro Peak natural cooked rolls/ and Boomer working dog kibble for as long as I can remember,from puppy to geriatric,they always have good weight and coats,and have lived to a good age,2 boxers 12 and 14,Scotty's does contain rice and barley which might not suit some dogs,and I don't have a boomer bag at present to check the ingredients,but have a look for yourself on the web site,

I only give my dogs a small amount of kibble at night and the meat in the morning

would be good to hear opinions from others tho? in case theres something I haven't found with it.

Edited July 7, 2013 by mac'ella

[FANG]

Hmmmmmm....there is LOTS of "scientific research" out there. What about the "scientific research" that goes into making a top quality dog food. Scientific Research is a bit like every book you pick up...always titled "worlds best seller". Still don't understand why you don't just collect the road kills down there....they are in abundance & as someone has already said..you don't cook RAW. You are so concerned with your dogs diet, yet you don't cook or yourself..

I don't really know what you're getting at. Gillespie doesn't appear to have an agenda and scrutinises the quality of research that has been published in journals. He doesn't claim to know everything, and in some of his explanations he points out that not enough is known about certain aspects of nutrition.

Just because I live in Tasmania does not mean I live out in the bush...

Cooking... preparing... same thing! Either way it takes more time than I already don't have.

I may not cook for myself, but I do eat reasonably healthily.

[FANG]

I've been feeding my dogs on Scotty's Pro Peak natural cooked rolls/ and Boomer working dog kibble for as long as I can remember,from puppy to geriatric,they always have good weight and coats,and have lived to a good age,2 boxers 12 and 14,Scotty's does contain rice and barley which might not suit some dogs,and I don't have a boomer bag at present to check the ingredients,but have a look for yourself on the web site,

I only give my dogs a small amount of kibble at night and the meat in the morning

would be good to hear opinions from others tho? in case theres something I haven't found with it.

Scotty's doesn't have any ingredients on its website, and apparently isn't available in my state.

Boomer Working Dog ingredients:

Wholegrains, meat & meat by-products derived from beef & sheep, grain byproducts, poultry meal, tallow, oil from vegetable seeds, kelp, garlic, iodised salt, vitamins A, B2, D, E, K & trace minerals - calcium, phosphorus, potassium (K), zinc. Manganese & calcium propionate (anti-mould). Natural Prebiotic.

I wouldn't feed my dogs this kibble... The seed oils, vitamin K and by-products are very concerning. It also doesn't specify the kind of grains and it is not a good sign that grains are the first listed ingredient.

Maybe your dogs have really good genes!

[raineth]

Hmmmmmm....there is LOTS of "scientific research" out there. What about the "scientific research" that goes into making a top quality dog food. Scientific Research is a bit like every book you pick up...always titled "worlds best seller". Still don't understand why you don't just collect the road kills down there....they are in abundance & as someone has already said..you don't cook RAW. You are so concerned with your dogs diet, yet you don't cook or yourself..

I don't really know what you're getting at. Gillespie doesn't appear to have an agenda and scrutinises the quality of research that has been published in journals. He doesn't claim to know everything, and in some of his explanations he points out that not enough is known about certain aspects of nutrition.

Just because I live in Tasmania does not mean I live out in the bush...

Cooking... preparing... same thing! Either way it takes more time than I already don't have.

I may not cook for myself, but I do eat reasonably healthily.

Just in regards to Gillespie, have you ever looked at what Dieticians say about his work?

I don't know what job you do, but I spend a fair amount of time reading scientific articles. Part of why scientists do research is to build a 'body of knowledge' about a particular phenomenon. Each piece of research fits into this body of knowledge, and there will be variation and sometimes contradictions. That's why it's important to look at the body of knowledge developed from many research reports, and understand how their methods and findings fit into what's known about the phenomenon. Picking a few research reports here and there and interpreting them to suit your argument is not a good way to develop a body of knowledge; yet that is what Gillespie did.

[minimax]

Hmmmmmm....there is LOTS of "scientific research" out there. What about the "scientific research" that goes into making a top quality dog food. Scientific Research is a bit like every book you pick up...always titled "worlds best seller". Still don't understand why you don't just collect the road kills down there....they are in abundance & as someone has already said..you don't cook RAW. You are so concerned with your dogs diet, yet you don't cook or yourself..

I don't really know what you're getting at. Gillespie doesn't appear to have an agenda and scrutinises the quality of research that has been published in journals. He doesn't claim to know everything, and in some of his explanations he points out that not enough is known about certain aspects of nutrition.

Just because I live in Tasmania does not mean I live out in the bush...

Cooking... preparing... same thing! Either way it takes more time than I already don't have.

I may not cook for myself, but I do eat reasonably healthily.

Just in regards to Gillespie, have you ever looked at what Dieticians say about his work?

I don't know what job you do, but I spend a fair amount of time reading scientific articles. Part of why scientists do research is to build a 'body of knowledge' about a particular phenomenon. Each piece of research fits into this body of knowledge, and there will be variation and sometimes contradictions. That's why it's important to look at the body of knowledge developed from many research reports, and understand how their methods and findings fit into what's known about the phenomenon. Picking a few research reports here and there and interpreting them to suit your argument is not a good way to develop a body of knowledge; yet that is what Gillespie did.

Is he the same Gillespie that writes the stupid quick-fix human diet books? If so, I wouldn't take much he said on canine nutrition seriously.

[persephone]

From what I've read .. he is a lawyer .... so yes, he is good at picking out articles/studies - it's the juxtaposition of them, and his 'marketing' which makes me cringe .

[sheena]

Hmmmmmm....there is LOTS of "scientific research" out there. What about the "scientific research" that goes into making a top quality dog food. Scientific Research is a bit like every book you pick up...always titled "worlds best seller". Still don't understand why you don't just collect the road kills down there....they are in abundance & as someone has already said..you don't cook RAW. You are so concerned with your dogs diet, yet you don't cook or yourself..

I don't really know what you're getting at. Gillespie doesn't appear to have an agenda and scrutinises the quality of research that has been published in journals. He doesn't claim to know everything, and in some of his explanations he points out that not enough is known about certain aspects of nutrition.

Just because I live in Tasmania does not mean I live out in the bush...

Cooking... preparing... same thing! Either way it takes more time than I already don't have.

I may not cook for myself, but I do eat reasonably healthily.

Just in regards to Gillespie, have you ever looked at what Dieticians say about his work?

I don't know what job you do, but I spend a fair amount of time reading scientific articles. Part of why scientists do research is to build a 'body of knowledge' about a particular phenomenon. Each piece of research fits into this body of knowledge, and there will be variation and sometimes contradictions. That's why it's important to look at the body of knowledge developed from many research reports, and understand how their methods and findings fit into what's known about the phenomenon. Picking a few research reports here and there and interpreting them to suit your argument is not a good way to develop a body of knowledge; yet that is what Gillespie did.

Is he the same Gillespie that writes the stupid quick-fix human diet books? If so, I wouldn't take much he said on canine nutrition seriously.

Thanks guys for backing me up. I know I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but everything, no matter what the subject, seems to be backed by so-called "scientific research". Go by what your dogs & past dogs have done well on, because "scientific research" says that stressing too much about these things gives you cancer

[minimax]

Scientific research shows that people can make scientific research say whatever they want to prove their point ;)

[sheena]

Scientific research shows that people can make scientific research say whatever they want to prove their point ;)

:thanks:

[FANG]

Just in regards to Gillespie, have you ever looked at what Dieticians say about his work?

I don't know what job you do, but I spend a fair amount of time reading scientific articles. Part of why scientists do research is to build a 'body of knowledge' about a particular phenomenon. Each piece of research fits into this body of knowledge, and there will be variation and sometimes contradictions. That's why it's important to look at the body of knowledge developed from many research reports, and understand how their methods and findings fit into what's known about the phenomenon. Picking a few research reports here and there and interpreting them to suit your argument is not a good way to develop a body of knowledge; yet that is what Gillespie did.

Yes I have, but I am yet to be convinced that what he says is wrong (although I am open to the possibility of this). He does also regularly refer to studies that demonstrate the opposite of what he is saying, but he then explains exactly how those studies may be flawed. That's a big part of why I find his argument so compelling.

[Maddy]

Hmmmmmm....there is LOTS of "scientific research" out there. What about the "scientific research" that goes into making a top quality dog food. Scientific Research is a bit like every book you pick up...always titled "worlds best seller". Still don't understand why you don't just collect the road kills down there....they are in abundance & as someone has already said..you don't cook RAW. You are so concerned with your dogs diet, yet you don't cook or yourself..

Hygiene aside, collecting protected species (which is most of what we have down here) is not legal. The only real exception there is species listed as vermin (hares, rabbits, feral cats, etc) but those animals rarely appear as roadkill anyway.

Having said that, putting aside the hygiene issue is a dangerous and very stupid idea, even if you were able to find vermin species to collect. Would the average person know how to inspect as carcase for hydatid cysts, for a start. If you couldn't identify those cysts, you definitely shouldn't be feeding your pets wildlife that you've scraped off the road.

Game meat is absurdly cheap and plentiful down here anyway so there's no real need to risk health and safety foraging from the side of the road.

Back on the actual topic..

FANG, I've read through the article about inulin and there's a lot of guessing and no actual evidence of any harmful effects. Just the website itself immediately makes me wary (sensationalist and out to sell something) so I wouldn't be relying on data collected by someone with any motivation other than expanding our knowledge of nutrition.

If you absolutely don't have time to feed raw (I feed raw for five large dogs and it takes me an hour per week to prepare 35 meals so it's not that time-consuming), I'd suggest Ziwipeak or something similar. Anything is going to be harmful if you feed to excess- I'd spend less time worrying about the effects of minor additives and more time looking for something that your dog likes and that he does well on. Those are the things that actually matter.

[FANG]

Far out, that Ziwipeak sure is expensive! Also, it says on the ingredients that it is "chicory syrup" and on the website ingredients section it describes it as "chicory inulin". I think it's evidence that it is essentially sugar, not fibre. I don't trust it.

Last night I tried feeding them Vets All Natural for the first time, and they threw up a lot of bits of bone. A few of the bits were flat and looked like cuttlefish but they were really hard. I am very unimpressed and will be returning the remaining packets I bought.

I think I might just mix Artemis with meat and yoghurt.

Aside from meat and bones, what does a raw diet entail? Just vegies and eggs? If I bought packets of prechopped vegies and mixed that with meat and eggs, would that get me out of the preparation time? But then what supplements would I need to buy on top of that?

[Maddy]

Far out, that Ziwipeak sure is expensive! Also, it says on the ingredients that it is "chicory syrup" and on the website ingredients section it describes it as "chicory inulin". I think it's evidence that it is essentially sugar, not fibre. I don't trust it.

Last night I tried feeding them Vets All Natural for the first time, and they threw up a lot of bits of bone. A few of the bits were flat and looked like cuttlefish but they were really hard. I am very unimpressed and will be returning the remaining packets I bought.

I think I might just mix Artemis with meat and yoghurt.

Aside from meat and bones, what does a raw diet entail? Just vegies and eggs? If I bought packets of prechopped vegies and mixed that with meat and eggs, would that get me out of the preparation time? But then what supplements would I need to buy on top of that?

I don't feed my dogs vegetables (for a number of reasons). My raw diet is pretty simple to prepare and the dogs look great on it- a mince mix (currently beef and minced wallaby frames) stuffed into a chicken frame and then frozen. A few days a week, they get big, meaty pieces of sheep (on the bone) and the odd bit of tinned fish. I guess you could fancy up the chicken frames by adding a bit of diced organ meat and a small wad of fresh hide/skin to make it into a more complete "carcase" but with so many mouths to feed at the moment, I don't have the extra time.

I supplement a little bit with some Livamol (great for their skin and coat) and a dog multivite (Vite Amino or Feramo-D) if I feel they need a bit extra. I also make my own treats- dried liver (easy but a tad smelly) and chicken or beef "jerky" using just the oven. Occasionally, they also get to go egg hunting (I buy some eggs, hide them in the yard and the dogs forage them out and eat whole).

I used to make complicated barf mixes involving vegetables and dairy but the dogs didn't really do any better on it compared to the current diet. If anything, I think they do a lot better with the unnecessary stuff removed.

If you're down in Hobart, there are a few good places to check out. Aussie Discount Meats sells the frames very cheaply (usually $10 for a ~10kg box) and the pet meat place at Glenorchy near the dog track sells a decent range of mince mixes and bones. You could also mix raw with kibble- plenty of people get good results doing that. You could just measure out.. say, a quarter of a day's worth of Ziwipeak and then top up the rest of the diet with raw.

Alternatively, if you ever come up to Launceston, there's an amazing pet meat place just near us- if you ask for it, they'll get it for you. I was getting huge sacks of fresh, green tripe for a couple of dollars (until I misplaced my most awesome boning knife) and they also sell organ meats, a huge range of minces, lots of different types of bones/meaty pieces and homemade treats. Raw can be really easy if you know where to look :D

[westiemum]

Interesting topic. I'm really time poor too and yet I feed raw mainly, human grade. I use VIP grain free dry for emergencies rarely. I try to keep my diet as unprocessed as possible and do the same for my westies - and they are doing extremely well for old dogs ('perfect' blood panels a month ago much to the amazement of my vet so I must be doing something right.)

I shop for my guys at the same time I shop for me. Its no big drama. Veg on special (zucchinis and carrots are favs), Black and Gold Frozen mixed veg, chicken wings and necks, eggs, yoghurt, cut up turkey necks, cans of Home Brand mackerel and sardines. Adelaide Dog raw meat formula and lamb necks. RMBs (soup bones from the supermarket). Chewy meat on special from the supermarket. I get to the central market on Saturday afternoons when I can. Its easy and cheap - and I think it's cheaper than dog food. All it takes is a little thought and a shopping list! And a minute more to prepare than opening a bag or can.

I think it was Rosetta () who said in a previous thread 'Since when did feeding dogs well become so complicated'? And I couldn't agree more. I keep it simple, cheap, human grade and as unprocessed and fresh as possible - exactly the same principles as I do for me. It's not rocket science IMO.

Edited July 23, 2013 by westiemum

[ness]

:laugh: westiemum - hmmm except when you decide to feed a meal of sardines (or tuna) then its just the same as opening a can . Always a good standby for when I am being lazy.

[westiemum]

Great post Hardy's Angel. I think we do very similar things except I feed more veg - more to bulk up meals to keep weight down (old westies can get very porky very quickly if you're not careful). Egg hunts! What a great idea. I'm going to try that.