Training To Focus

[Kajirin]

So Sarge has been at training now for 2 months and is doing very well. He graduated into Beginners tonight. He's still young, but I'm noticing he's losing focus on me and is more interested in what's going on around him [which leads to him being off in lala land and not paying attention to commands].

He knows the 'look' command, but again being in lala land he just wasn't interested. he was looking at the grass or the dog in front of and behind him. Was rather unusual for him [but maybe he was just having one of those nights].

Would using a different treat reward like roast chicken or turkey [his current preference is cheese, but it's not having the desired effect now] and praise/treating when he pays attention to the look command be helpful?

Or holding the treat high up to my chest so he focuses on that when doing heel work?

I just don't want to set him up to fail by him losing focus, I want to try and nip it in the bud before it becomes more of a problem.

TIA

[The Spotted Devil]

It's complex but the look command becomes a bit of a problem as it ends up creating a behaviour chain and reinforces being distracted. And holding the treat up high is simply luring - it often appears to give good results but becomes a crutch. I prefer to play (physical, tug, tricks etc), work briefly, reward and release to sniff. This also encourages the dog to re-engage. The problem with some classes is that they ask the dogs to hold focus for way too long without building enough value and a varied schedule of reinforcement.

[raineth]

Might also help to have him a little further away from what's distracting him.

See if you can find a sweet spot where its not so challenging for him to focus on you :)

[huski]

Using high value rewards can definitely help, but the way you deliver rewards is hugely important. Do you make training a game that is super fun and exciting, or is it more like food exchange where you just give him a piece of food every now and then?

How long are your training sessions, are you always ending the session with him wanting more or does he lose focus and interest while you're training?

Focus isn't something I really train, it's something my dogs offer naturally because they are super invested in the game we play. There's a lot we can do in the way we deliver rewards to make training more fun and exciting.

Edited September 24, 2014 by huski

[sheena]

You have to be careful that you are not using your treats to "lure" in which case he will be more focused on the treat rather than what he did to earn it. Try & "train clean" as much as possible. ie. have your treats out of sight (in your pocket or behind your back) & gradually build focus up by ...he looks up at your eyes..click & treat. Do this a few times, then gradually ask for duration before you click & treat. Remember he has to be looking at your face not at the treat in your hand....you want his focus on YOU. Keep your sessions short. If he is being distracted by a particular thing eg. dogs then you could play a bit of LAT with him. Which is basically counter-conditioning him. EG As soon as he glances towards another dog, click, & he will turn to you for the treat. If you do this enough, he will soon catch on that looking at the dog earns him a click & treat & he will start looking at YOU to tell YOU that there is a dog. If you click & he doesn't turn to you straight away, then you are too close to the distraction & you need to back off.

But remember to "Train Clean", he must be focusing on your face not a treat, & keep the sessions short & gradually build up duration. :)

[Kajirin]

Thank you all for your replies, most helpful

The training sessions are half an hour long. In puppy 1 and 2 we were doing group work in a circle [basics of sit, drop, stand, sit/stay to the end of the leash, puppy recall [wait then call and let them sit in front on leash], about turn and left about turn]. Half way through puppy 1 and 2 classes the dogs were given around a 5-10 time out to play after being released from working. Then they'd go back into work mode until the end of class.

At the end of class when I free him off, he is super excited and bouncing around at me.

Beginners will be working in a line and introducing left and right turns and continuing on with the above mentioned, but no time out to play.

As I said usually Sarge works really well. I don't expect him to keep his focus on me the whole time, just when I'm about to give him a command that includes a hand signal...I like to have his attention on me. I just say "Sarge look" and he looks at me then I give him his command, once done it's marked with a happy yes [ie; as his bum hits the ground in a sit] and then he's treated. I never hold treats in my hand as I have a treat pouch - the only time I will is when returning to Sarge in a sit/stay. I hold the treat above his nose as he did have a habit of breaking his stay to follow me when walking behind him. The treat was used as a lure of sorts to keep him in the one spot.

Last night he was in a right wally mode and off with the pixies and ignored all voice commands for the first half. After the midway play he was a bit more settled and listened on and off. Maybe last night was just a bad night [it happens] and I'm making a mountain out of a molehill

When he's training at home [on a farm with many distractions like goats and horses] he works well, birds seem to take his attentions away though.

I did training with him this morning using roast turkey, his attention wasn't off me at all...the smell got him somewhat drooling and super dooper excited. Before starting with just the smell he was anticipating what I wanted, so he was sitting and dropping hoping to get a reward [i ignored him]. Once working he was amazing [to me] he did everything I asked with enthusiasm - ended his training session whilst he was still full of enthusiasm. Felt much happier [but now just have to wait until next Wednesday].

EFS

Edited September 25, 2014 by Noishe

[huski]

Hey Noishe, what are your goals with Sarge? Are you wanting to train him to be a well behaved pet, or with a view to compete in obedience or other sports?

[Kajirin]

Huski, my main goal first and foremost is a well behaved pet.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Noishe

[Kajirin]

The trainers so far have all been impressed with both Sarge and myself and how we work together. But, I can just sense a slight change in Sarge - he is now 7 months old. It may be just an age phase thing, I'm not frustrated with him in the slightest...I'm leaning towards handler error - I have to make it more fun for him, keep his attention. If anything the label I could place on last night...he was bored.

Reading all of your comments did open my eyes. I've been going over things in my brain and I can see where I can implement improvements, mainly towards myself. At training, I'm more 'regimented', where as at home I'm more laid back/higher louder happy voice [i'm starting to notice the difference in myself, where before I was oblivious]. In public I'm concentrating more on him doing the right thing and my voice is sterner more authoritarian and lower in volume.

[Nekhbet]

Gahhhh the look command, the bane of my existence. I dont use it, and heaven forbid the person that does use it in front of me.

Build your focus into ALL your commands. It's the point of a command, to comply AND focus. If I say sit, dog sits and looks in face. Whatever you say the dog should look at your face. Putting a command to it makes it provisional and you then reward for lack of focus in other things. So eg you say sit, the dog can look at your hand a bit, dither around and still be rewarded. Look at the whole picture that you want, you want focus and clarity. Name means focus straight to your face.

Don't create a rod for your own back with a look or watch command. Position, focus, mark, reward. No focus = non reward marker. I start all the puppies like this too and it's actually a lot easier for the owners long term as it's build it. Even the most novice owners have a pup that sit/drop/stand/heel with focus on face not on hand/treat pouch/pocket etc.

[persephone]

The trainers so far have all been impressed with both Sarge and myself and how we work together. But, I can just sense a slight change in Sarge - he is now 7 months old. It may be just an age phase thing, I'm not frustrated with him in the slightest...I'm leaning towards handler error - I have to make it more fun for him, keep his attention. If anything the label I could place on last night...he was bored.

Reading all of your comments did open my eyes. I've been going over things in my brain and I can see where I can implement improvements, mainly towards myself. At training, I'm more 'regimented', where as at home I'm more laid back/higher louder happy voice [i'm starting to notice the difference in myself, where before I was oblivious]. In public I'm concentrating more on him doing the right thing and my voice is sterner more authoritarian and lower in volume.

pssst .. you REALLY want the dog to watch you ? WHISPER to him ! he has to turn to you so his ears are pointed in the right direction . Whisper his name - when he turns - treat! rinse/repeat . Dogs have amazing hearing , and I do not understand why folks almost shout at them , unless in a very distracting or urgent situation

[Kajirin]

Thank you Nekhbet, that does make a lot of sense and won't be difficult at all to retrain myself to do. But that is exactly what I want to train for, I'd thought that one had to teach verbal focus [focus command] first to achieve it.

Very true Perse, when I say loud for me - slightly louder than normal speaking voice. At training I am lower than normal speaking voice. Sarge got out the other day into the unfenced front area [where the goat was tethered, he can be narky with dogs and headbutt hard], I just used my normal voice and said Sarge come. He raced back to me and sat at my feet.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Noishe

[Nekhbet]

I sent you a PM noishe

[Kajirin]

Thank ye

[Erny]

Focus isn't something I really train, it's something my dogs offer naturally because they are super invested in the game we play. There's a lot we can do in the way we deliver rewards to make training more fun and exciting.

Same here. What's the point of a "look" on command when generally we need the dog's focus most when there are distractions around. This is the time when compliance to commands such as recall, sit, drop etc are potentially least likely, so why would we expect the dog to comply with a command to "look"? I train to encourage the dog to give focus as a default response/action, something that is voluntary and doesn't need to be requested. Comes easier and also more readily and frequently than when structured as a commanded response.

[DobieMum]

My Dobie Girl is 10 months old and trains quite well. At home training for 10-15 mins she works brilliantly and at the club, she works well till a certain point (somewhere between 35-45 mins) and then she completely shuts down. Doesn't want treats, doesn't want to work, will even look away if I really try to lure. Totally stumped me till 3 weeks ago when I gave up and went and just sat on the mat with her, she started nodding like your Mum does in church. We finally worked out, her shutting down was just too tired, she only does it at obedience training and its cause we're in the go pretty much all the time. The time is now getting longer as she gets older, so we'll get there eventually. First dog I've ever had this happen to me, was a real eye opener when I realised.

Edited October 24, 2014 by DobieMum

[VizslaMomma]

My Dobie Girl is 10 months old and trains quite well. At home training for 10-15 mins she works brilliantly and at the club, she works well till a certain point (somewhere between 35-45 mins) and then she completely shuts down. Doesn't want treats, doesn't want to work, will even look away if I really try to lure. Totally stumped me till 3 weeks ago when I gave up and went and just sat on the mat with her, she started nodding like your Mum does in church. We finally worked out, her shutting down was just too tired, she only does it at obedience training and its cause we're in the go pretty much all the time. The time is now getting longer as she gets older, so we'll get there eventually. First dog I've ever had this happen to me, was a real eye opener when I realised.

Speaking for myself, I found I underestimated (totally) that the puppy was different.

Sounds so elementary. But I was thinking so much how X dog did this & Y dog did that. Puppy does it differently.

Real eye opener to grasp this for me too.

Good Luck with your girl. I know we will get there eventually.

:)

[huski]

My Dobie Girl is 10 months old and trains quite well. At home training for 10-15 mins she works brilliantly and at the club, she works well till a certain point (somewhere between 35-45 mins) and then she completely shuts down. Doesn't want treats, doesn't want to work, will even look away if I really try to lure. Totally stumped me till 3 weeks ago when I gave up and went and just sat on the mat with her, she started nodding like your Mum does in church. We finally worked out, her shutting down was just too tired, she only does it at obedience training and its cause we're in the go pretty much all the time. The time is now getting longer as she gets older, so we'll get there eventually. First dog I've ever had this happen to me, was a real eye opener when I realised.

35-45 minutes is a long time! In the trial ring you'd be lucky to be there for 5 minutes for most rings. For most dogs even 15 minutes of work is a long time.

I personally don't see any benefit in classes where dogs are worked continuously for the entire time (usually paddock bashing in a lot of cases) - I might work my dog over a long period of time, but for shorter burst and in between I expect her to relax and switch off. When to work and when to switch off is a valuable skill for dogs to learn, IMO.

[VizslaMomma]

My Dobie Girl is 10 months old and trains quite well. At home training for 10-15 mins she works brilliantly and at the club, she works well till a certain point (somewhere between 35-45 mins) and then she completely shuts down. Doesn't want treats, doesn't want to work, will even look away if I really try to lure. Totally stumped me till 3 weeks ago when I gave up and went and just sat on the mat with her, she started nodding like your Mum does in church. We finally worked out, her shutting down was just too tired, she only does it at obedience training and its cause we're in the go pretty much all the time. The time is now getting longer as she gets older, so we'll get there eventually. First dog I've ever had this happen to me, was a real eye opener when I realised.

35-45 minutes is a long time! In the trial ring you'd be lucky to be there for 5 minutes for most rings. For most dogs even 15 minutes of work is a long time.

I personally don't see any benefit in classes where dogs are worked continuously for the entire time (usually paddock bashing in a lot of cases) - I might work my dog over a long period of time, but for shorter burst and in between I expect her to relax and switch off. When to work and when to switch off is a valuable skill for dogs to learn, IMO.

This needs a LIKE.

Considering age and attention span, 35-45 minutes is so long for puppies.

[huski]

It's a long time for adult dogs too, there is never any time I work my dogs until they are tired and check out - I always leave them wanting more.