Nsw To Ban Greyhound Racing From July 2017

[Steve]

All wonderful ideals but in the current climate people outside of the industry do not understand why the industry does not deal with cruelty within its own ranks. We can make up all the excuses in the world but it doesn't absolve us of the responsibility.

No, It doesn't. So we are left with no other choices in our response.

I wouldn't call them 'ideals' Its how things work. See Richard Dawkins( evolutionary Biologist) on Faith.

'Beliefs' are fine until you accept them as truths and refuse to any challenge to them, yet act on them as truth and ask every one else to do the same. Only hes talking religious faith and human generations/ environment. Here we are talking of a biological 'belief' and its effects on dogs and their environment. Much shorter generations and much faster effect.

A belief in the pedigree system is beneficial.

It ceases to be beneficial when it demands breeding outside a pedigree system ISN"T beneficial and there is no value to be had out side its own systems.

Its not about the pedigree system its about what groups of people within an industry - any industry see as cruel when it doesn't match up with those who think otherwise.

All of those activities such as fox hunting, pig hunting, rabbit hunting, etc have dogs chasing live bait - why would those involved in these activities be eager to stop people doing what it is they all see as normal and not cruel

Its about changing views within the community,some win some dont depends how loud those outside of the industry shout - its about treatment of animals far far removed from a pedigree.

[moosmum]

There is another point here - the people involved in greyhound racing had no choice but to be members of one organisation - not just to race but also to own train and breed them .All dogs involved had to be under their breeding and recording system to be able to be involved.The good guys have no choice but to swim in the same pond . When a few are sprung and shown to be doing horrible things everyone in the group is judged as the pond scum and the entire group population and their dogs are punished.

Cant see any difference in this and the ANKC and if enough get busted for what the community feels is cruelty - bingo.

Worse there are so many beating their chests telling everyone they are better than the rest that they completely miss what it is that the community is judging them on.

The community is judging them on things they do which are being sensationalised as being cruel which they are told is produced by the showring but those who are showing and those who make their money out of the showring think they are untouchable and superior and cant see it coming.

The Ccs are caught up with the whole dont let our breeders look like puppy farmers and completely ignore what will have the potential to do what has been done here. Just as those grey trainers didnt see that what they did was cruel some purebred breeders cant see that by breeding dogs which the community is being told suffer their whole lives due to the selection for the show ring standard that they are closer to being seen as the cruel industry that selects dogs with physical features that make them suffer.

They introduce prefix exams, waiting periods,ownership of a purebred dog and being a member for over a year before they can apply to breed, push those already there for breeding less litters no close breeding no matter what the reason, limiting the gene pools with limited register and less litters, inspect to see they are picking up poo keeping their records in order etc just as the grey people did but cant see what it is they will be judge on because they see nothing wrong with it.

Exactly. The insular, isolated identity of a participant in that industry. An identity with its own individual traits, world view and realities that can't understand what people outside the industry are trying to tell them, and people out side the industry can't understand the value of its practices.

There is no way to share the benefits with out commiting to that identity . The benefits are limmited to that identity and not shared with the environment beyond it.

Any who tries for quicker change within the industry can't gain acceptance as a true part of that identity.

Gambling is an entirely different matter and there will always be alternatives to gamble on.

[moosmum]

All wonderful ideals but in the current climate people outside of the industry do not understand why the industry does not deal with cruelty within its own ranks. We can make up all the excuses in the world but it doesn't absolve us of the responsibility.

No, It doesn't. So we are left with no other choices in our response.

I wouldn't call them 'ideals' Its how things work. See Richard Dawkins( evolutionary Biologist) on Faith.

'Beliefs' are fine until you accept them as truths and refuse to any challenge to them, yet act on them as truth and ask every one else to do the same. Only hes talking religious faith and human generations/ environment. Here we are talking of a biological 'belief' and its effects on dogs and their environment. Much shorter generations and much faster effect.

A belief in the pedigree system is beneficial.

It ceases to be beneficial when it demands breeding outside a pedigree system ISN"T beneficial and there is no value to be had out side its own systems.

Its not about the pedigree system its about what groups of people within an industry - any industry see as cruel when it doesn't match up with those who think otherwise.

All of those activities such as fox hunting, pig hunting, rabbit hunting, etc have dogs chasing live bait - why would those involved in these activities be eager to stop people doing what it is they all see as normal and not cruel

Its about changing views within the community,some win some dont depends how loud those outside of the industry shout - its about treatment of animals far far removed from a pedigree.

I have NEVER said its about the pedigree. Its not about your belief in a pedigree, which is beneficial. Its about a disbelief in any other values.

Yes, community views are changing. But these industries do not consider themselves just a part of that community. They have a separate identity.

I doubt those who hunt etc, are adding their voices to this debate- they won't want to be drawing any attention to their own practices or purpose because will would make them next. They will be brought to attention sooner or later. Just like every one else in line while we wittle away environments where dogs can thrive, and people who can support them with the responses they've learned and can teach by doing that.

But if its a single species, there must be recognition its a single community/environment and we ALL share responsibility for its health.

We can't share the same values if we don't see to it they WILL be shared.

Edited July 14, 2016 by moosmum

[Steve]

All wonderful ideals but in the current climate people outside of the industry do not understand why the industry does not deal with cruelty within its own ranks. We can make up all the excuses in the world but it doesn't absolve us of the responsibility.

No, It doesn't. So we are left with no other choices in our response.

I wouldn't call them 'ideals' Its how things work. See Richard Dawkins( evolutionary Biologist) on Faith.

'Beliefs' are fine until you accept them as truths and refuse to any challenge to them, yet act on them as truth and ask every one else to do the same. Only hes talking religious faith and human generations/ environment. Here we are talking of a biological 'belief' and its effects on dogs and their environment. Much shorter generations and much faster effect.

A belief in the pedigree system is beneficial.

It ceases to be beneficial when it demands breeding outside a pedigree system ISN"T beneficial and there is no value to be had out side its own systems.

Its not about the pedigree system its about what groups of people within an industry - any industry see as cruel when it doesn't match up with those who think otherwise.

All of those activities such as fox hunting, pig hunting, rabbit hunting, etc have dogs chasing live bait - why would those involved in these activities be eager to stop people doing what it is they all see as normal and not cruel

Its about changing views within the community,some win some dont depends how loud those outside of the industry shout - its about treatment of animals far far removed from a pedigree.

I have NEVER said its about the pedigree. Its not about your belief in a pedigree, which is beneficial. Its about a disbelief in any other values.

So why is the pedigree system or inside outside a pedigree system even mentioned?

[moosmum]

Because a pedigree is the value chosen to divide the pedigree breeder identity from the general environment. Thru' an inherent, promoted, DIS-belief in other values.

Edited July 14, 2016 by moosmum

[Steve]

Because a pedigree is the value chosen to divide the pedigree breeder identity from the general environment.

If there is ever a ban placed on the breeding of dogs with specific conformation it wont be only placed on those who are only breeding dogs with traceable pedigrees or those who only place importance on them.

There are many many more people who are breeding dogs with brachy heads than those who use a pedigree system who will be affected .The banning of Scottish fold cats doesnt mention a pedigree or whether someone even has a pedigree for the cat or if they are wiythin the cat pedigree system - its about how the cat looks.

The pedigree system has already done what they wanted and made it against their codes to breed close relatives because some u beaut professor decided that it was all about in breeding rather than selection.

[moosmum]

Because a pedigree is the value chosen to divide the pedigree breeder identity from the general environment.

If there is ever a ban placed on the breeding of dogs with specific conformation it wont be only placed on those who are only breeding dogs with traceable pedigrees or those who only place importance on them.

There are many many more people who are breeding dogs with brachy heads than those who use a pedigree system who will be affected .The banning of Scottish fold cats doesnt mention a pedigree or whether someone even has a pedigree for the cat or if they are wiythin the cat pedigree system - its about how the cat looks.

The pedigree system has already done what they wanted and made it against their codes to breed close relatives because some u beaut professor decided that it was all about in breeding rather than selection.

The Pedigree system, like the Grey hound industry, is not an inclusive cultural identity. Its an exclusive one.

No. Banns won't only affect pedigrees. They will affect cultural standards and values. Because they won't be shared.

Again, Its a single species and can't be divided along lines of value. What reduces one section of the environment reduces all in one way or another. Less resources available for purpose. We lose purpose.

Sharing values through inclusive cultures allows for the best of all demonstrated values to be chosen in support of any specific purpose, adding to it. Exclusive cultures do the opposite.

Reducing the 'standards' (or values) we accept reduces the species. Its all those standards and values together that allow the community to choose from those that ADD to their purpose.

[Sheridan]

Academic weasel wording aside, this is the beginning of the end of animal ownership. All you have to do is visit an AR FB page to see how much these people hate dogs.

[Salukifan]

Because a pedigree is the value chosen to divide the pedigree breeder identity from the general environment.

If there is ever a ban placed on the breeding of dogs with specific conformation it wont be only placed on those who are only breeding dogs with traceable pedigrees or those who only place importance on them.

There are many many more people who are breeding dogs with brachy heads than those who use a pedigree system who will be affected .The banning of Scottish fold cats doesnt mention a pedigree or whether someone even has a pedigree for the cat or if they are wiythin the cat pedigree system - its about how the cat looks.

The pedigree system has already done what they wanted and made it against their codes to breed close relatives because some u beaut professor decided that it was all about in breeding rather than selection.

The Pedigree system, like the Grey hound industry, is not an inclusive cultural identity. Its an exclusive one.

No. Banns won't only affect pedigrees. They will affect cultural standards and values. Because they won't be shared.

Again, Its a single species and can't be divided along lines of value. What reduces one section of the environment reduces all in one way or another. Less resources available for purpose. We lose purpose.

Sharing values through inclusive cultures allows for the best of all demonstrated values to be chosen in support of any specific purpose, adding to it. Exclusive cultures do the opposite.

Reducing the 'standards' (or values) we accept reduces the species. Its all those standards and values together that allow the community to choose from those that ADD to their purpose.

It's divided along lines of known ancestry and predictability of characteristics and traits vs random breeding. You seem to be attributing attributes to the idea of a pedigree in and of itself having value. It doesn't. A pedigree is simply a record of ancestry and proves that the animal has the ancestry listed. Some people value certain attributes and characateristics in a dog and selectively breed for them. That facilitates choice.

What the hell any of this has to do with the ban on greyhound racing is utterly beyond me. The sport is not being banned because the dogs have pedigrees. They don't have ANKC pedigrees anyway.

Cynical use of this decision to promote an anti-pedigree dog agenda? Hardly in the spirit of this forum.

Edited July 14, 2016 by Haredown Whippets

[mita]

I was looking at the commends on a Facebook post (SMH or something), and a greyhound racer was blaming the government for the fact that he'd be euthanizing his 9 greys as his "loved" dogs were now worthless. I wish I could say it was a comment troll. I just...

Someone pointed out that he wouldn't kill his children if Little Athletics were banned, but the point seemed to have been lost on him.

It's that kind of attitude towards dogs that people in the community are so strongly reacting to. The greys being treated simply as economic/performance units.

There are decent owner/trainers who genuinely love their greys as loved dogs. We lived next door to one for many years. He truly loved them as dog-personalities & was an all-round animal lover. He took responsibility for rehoming his greys as companion pets....& socialised them when young to pave the way. When he did, he kept his contact on the microchip along with the new owner's, so his greys would have a lifeline back to him.

He had no illusions about the abuses in the industry. In fact, he brought home to be a pet a big grey called Boofy that he took from a man who was going to shoot him because he was slow. When Boofy died when being desexed, he was shattered. He loved that big boofhead & so did the neighbours. But he despaired of how to make his values (& those of his friends) the norm across the industry... which seems to be the heart of the problem.

Edited July 14, 2016 by mita

[Steve]

Because a pedigree is the value chosen to divide the pedigree breeder identity from the general environment.

If there is ever a ban placed on the breeding of dogs with specific conformation it wont be only placed on those who are only breeding dogs with traceable pedigrees or those who only place importance on them.

There are many many more people who are breeding dogs with brachy heads than those who use a pedigree system who will be affected .The banning of Scottish fold cats doesnt mention a pedigree or whether someone even has a pedigree for the cat or if they are wiythin the cat pedigree system - its about how the cat looks.

The pedigree system has already done what they wanted and made it against their codes to breed close relatives because some u beaut professor decided that it was all about in breeding rather than selection.

The Pedigree system, like the Grey hound industry, is not an inclusive cultural identity. Its an exclusive one.

No. Banns won't only affect pedigrees. They will affect cultural standards and values. Because they won't be shared.

Again, Its a single species and can't be divided along lines of value. What reduces one section of the environment reduces all in one way or another. Less resources available for purpose. We lose purpose.

Sharing values through inclusive cultures allows for the best of all demonstrated values to be chosen in support of any specific purpose, adding to it. Exclusive cultures do the opposite.

Reducing the 'standards' (or values) we accept reduces the species. Its all those standards and values together that allow the community to choose from those that ADD to their purpose.

It's divided along lines of known ancestry and predictability of characteristics and traits vs random breeding. You seem to be attributing attributes to the idea of a pedigree in and of itself having value. It doesn't. A pedigree is simply a record of ancestry and proves that the animal has the ancestry listed. Some people value certain attributes and characateristics in a dog and selectively breed for them. That facilitates choice.

What the hell any of this has to do with the ban on greyhound racing is utterly beyond me. The sport is not being banned because the dogs have pedigrees. They don't have ANKC pedigrees anyway.

Cynical use of this decision to promote an anti-pedigree dog agenda? Hardly in the spirit of this forum.

Is that whats being said - buggered if I understand most of what is said or meant once this stuff starts up.

[PossumCorner]

Academic weasel wording ....

Yes.

- buggered if I understand most of what is said or meant once this stuff starts up.

Sheridan's is an accurate precis.

[Lhok]

Academic weasel wording aside, this is the beginning of the end of animal ownership. All you have to do is visit an AR FB page to see how much these people hate dogs.

Stuff like this from the Animals Australia facebook page, The last quote says it all really.

"Now Mr Baird has no option than to Ban Pet Ownership as well. With Puppy Farms and the fact that 250000 unwanted pets are put down each year. Pretty much the same reason for banning Greyhounds, just on a far bigger scale."

"Great work - now we just need Mike Baird to continue to adopt Animal Justice Party policies, reverse the Ag Gag laws, stop the brumby culls and place a ban on all domestic dog and cat breeding until no shelter animals need to be destroyed."

"stop the over breeding of all animals from back street breeders.."

"The thing is how many dogs and cats are put down in the pounds each year,nobody cares"

"Dogs and cats are bred for the pet industry. When they get too big or dig up the yard or the child grows tied of them they are abandoned, and unless rehoused are put down. I just would like too know how the pet industry stacks up to the greyhound industry."

"its exactly the same issue just a different industry." (Had to take the names out for privacy)

"yep. So go tackle the shelters. These guys are working on the greyhound industry for now. They cant do everything! Just be happy there is progress in this field. But yes please go do something for the shelters. Pitch in. Good on you. Thanks"

"I'm not saying two wrongs make a right at all. If you ban the greyhound industry on the grounds of cruelty that has been highlighted then you must also ban the pet industry."

"It's people doing the wrong thing that is the problem, both with greyhounds and pets. So you must ban both to solve the issues. Otherwise it's just plain Hypocrisy."

"There are a lot of organisations campaigning to stop puppy farms because they are doing some awful things also.

I personally think it should be illegal to own and breed an undesexed dog and only registered breeders with strict limits and welfare rules should be allowed to breed.Fingers crossed that is the next step governments will take."

"it's good to see so many in support of Banning Pet ownership. It's the only way to stop the cruelty."

--Lhok

[Pjrt]

Live press conference on ABC news 24

[moosmum]

Academic weasel wording ....

Yes.

- buggered if I understand most of what is said or meant once this stuff starts up.

Sheridan's is an accurate precis.

FFS I'm trying to save your sorry 'victim' butts, poor you and poor my my breed.

Guess you are on your own.

[Salukifan]

Deleted. Double post.

Edited July 14, 2016 by Haredown Whippets

[Steve]

Academic weasel wording ....

Yes.

- buggered if I understand most of what is said or meant once this stuff starts up.

Sheridan's is an accurate precis.

FFS I'm trying to save your sorry 'victim' butts, poor you and poor my my breed.

Guess you are on your own.

No one is questioning your motivation MM but I cant help the fact that I cant follow what you are talking about much of the time. I acknowledge this is my problem but your lectures simply go way over my head. I'm simply not smart enough to get what you mean.

just when I think I get some of it you tell me you never said that - its easier to turn off.

[Salukifan]

Academic weasel wording ....

Yes.

- buggered if I understand most of what is said or meant once this stuff starts up.

Sheridan's is an accurate precis.

FFS I'm trying to save your sorry 'victim' butts, poor you and poor my my breed.

Guess you are on your own.

Suggest you start by explaining how you are saving poor us in language we can comprehend.

Edited July 14, 2016 by Haredown Whippets

[Sheridan]

Academic weasel wording ....

Yes.

- buggered if I understand most of what is said or meant once this stuff starts up.

Sheridan's is an accurate precis.

FFS I'm trying to save your sorry 'victim' butts, poor you and poor my my breed.

Guess you are on your own.

Is that what you're doing? Oh.

[Sheridan]

Academic weasel wording aside, this is the beginning of the end of animal ownership. All you have to do is visit an AR FB page to see how much these people hate dogs.

Stuff like this from the Animals Australia facebook page, The last quote says it all really.

"Now Mr Baird has no option than to Ban Pet Ownership as well. With Puppy Farms and the fact that 250000 unwanted pets are put down each year. Pretty much the same reason for banning Greyhounds, just on a far bigger scale."

"Great work - now we just need Mike Baird to continue to adopt Animal Justice Party policies, reverse the Ag Gag laws, stop the brumby culls and place a ban on all domestic dog and cat breeding until no shelter animals need to be destroyed."

"stop the over breeding of all animals from back street breeders.."

"The thing is how many dogs and cats are put down in the pounds each year,nobody cares"

"Dogs and cats are bred for the pet industry. When they get too big or dig up the yard or the child grows tied of them they are abandoned, and unless rehoused are put down. I just would like too know how the pet industry stacks up to the greyhound industry."

"its exactly the same issue just a different industry." (Had to take the names out for privacy)

"yep. So go tackle the shelters. These guys are working on the greyhound industry for now. They cant do everything! Just be happy there is progress in this field. But yes please go do something for the shelters. Pitch in. Good on you. Thanks"

"I'm not saying two wrongs make a right at all. If you ban the greyhound industry on the grounds of cruelty that has been highlighted then you must also ban the pet industry."

"It's people doing the wrong thing that is the problem, both with greyhounds and pets. So you must ban both to solve the issues. Otherwise it's just plain Hypocrisy."

"There are a lot of organisations campaigning to stop puppy farms because they are doing some awful things also.

I personally think it should be illegal to own and breed an undesexed dog and only registered breeders with strict limits and welfare rules should be allowed to breed.Fingers crossed that is the next step governments will take."

"it's good to see so many in support of Banning Pet ownership. It's the only way to stop the cruelty."

--Lhok

Nihilists. Dog extinction proponents. And they're saying to Baird, 'Come in, spinner.'