KitKat Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Before we get any further from the original post... For those who want to corrolate dog training with Scope and the dogs - we are told not to rub a dogs nose in a mistake...so why are you doing so to Scope? They have freely admited they made a mistake...chances of them doing so again is slim from what i've seen. After reading past history of Scope and their dogs if it was going to be an ongoing thing it would have started long ago...not just now. Scope has had the balls to admit their mistake...and what do a bundle of members do? jump all over her and rub her nose in it *sigh* She gets she did wrong in punching her dog - you don't have to keep bring it up and 'rubbing her nose in it" - yes i have said this a number of times in this paragraph - but repeating the obvious seems to be allowed in this thread. 2nd - great...love the advice of "Go see K9Force" Now apart from the fact that he is booked well in advance he isn't free! Scope has a variety of issues going on at the moment and having spare cash laying around isn't one of them - or at least the severe lack of such is part of the problem. I believe Scope's only real mistake with this thread was to post it in the general forum rather then the training one. She admited she was having issues and let her fustrations get away with her...she'll not have been the first to do so...nor the last - just one of the few to admit it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rugerfly Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 personally I just think you like to argue. Agreed, i shouldnt have said punching (as i have already stated). With words to most reading this on the net (as some take things litterally) I should have said swiping my dog on its but with an open hand in a tennis forehand motion. If thats still violence and dog abuse, well, i'll arrest myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rugerfly Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Agreed KatKit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavNrott Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 (edited) . Edited May 8, 2009 by cavNrott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rugerfly Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 O/T here, but are you a solicitor? you should be....(not being sarcastic) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavNrott Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 (edited) . Edited May 8, 2009 by cavNrott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grotty_rotty Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 SCOPE if you are still reading, is there any chance of coming to RCV training tomorrow night ? I am sure they will be some truly valuable and helful advice there :p But I can appreciate if you have to work. Herr Rott. is always there for great advice. Hope to see you there soon and Grotty will have more hugs for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelsona Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Maybe GSD breed is not for you. These dogs are very individualistic and require a lot of patience. GSD and Rotweiller - both breeds are quite strong willed. You would be better off with more placid breeds. Funny thing I thought you were a guy, when you wrote about punching your dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darien Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Sorry I can't help, mainly wanted someone to explain what 'prey drive' is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KitKat Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 (edited) Nelsona - Why should scope have a more placid breed? but dogs she has came with baggage with which she has done a very good job of dealing with. The moment things go down hill in general and fustrations get out of hand people are saying "give dog/s up" or "you shouldn't have that breed" What a Crock!!! Scope has done well so far, and i am sure after this lapse will get back on track (and hopefully other things will get on track in her life as well) - I see no reason for her to give up her dogs, or to change breeds. Yes dogs are indivualistic - not just GSD's or Rott's - It doesn't mean that a lapse in judgement should mean she suddenly can't deal with dog or breed. Just means she has to learn from what happened and move on from there...which is what i believe she has done - and is looking at/for ways to move on and help her dogs further. Not get harped at that she can't cope with her chosen dogs/breeds. Be constructive - not destructive. ETA - Darian - if you search that in the training forum you'll get more threads then you could poke a stick at...lol Edited June 20, 2006 by KitKat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 yes we can all loose control but do you hit people when they annoy or just your dogs??If so whats the difference & what did you achieve by hitting the dog?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavNrott Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 (edited) . Edited May 8, 2009 by cavNrott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KitKat Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Yes but Scope started out saying what she did, fessing up to it, and admitting it was so wrong. Hell...i've gotten so fustrated due to things that i've tossed stuff around the house, kicked my car (hurt my foot!) and have even set up a rough punching bag and kicked and punched the daylights out of it. A release of tension/anger/whatever. And in this case from what i read Scope reacted to her dog biting her - dog bit her she turned and hit/punched dog - so in reply to your question if it was me and someone hit me with intent i'd just as likely hit them back with intent - and i know how to do that properly. But again...she knows it was the wrong thing to do...i don't believe that is the issue here - i believe the issue it that she needs help in working out ways solving the problem that got her dog to a point of biting her and of Scope reacting in a way that was not beneficial to the situation. Even if said solution is to get a husher muzzle and see if that helps. There have been several constructive comments in this thread and i hope Scope gets a chance to read them. I'd also consider asking around and seeing if anyone has a copy of some of the Leerburg DVD's -eg agressive/dominant dog dvd, drive dvd's etc - that she could borrow and watch and see if they offer any insight (once K9Force gets his dvd's going she could look at them as well {i'm sure DVD's will be out at some stage!}) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 K9: Hey! I thought I was the list bully! lol... :p I really think its time to put away the whip for a moment & not post if you have no good advice... which is severly lacking in this thread... Scope: Rotty has been living in a pen for most of the time he has been with me, for his own safety as well as everyone else's.. GSD was an inside dog when i got him, seemed to accept him OK... on K9-Force's suggestion, i've been leaving the rotty out of his pen so they both have full run of the back yard K9: Keep in mind that the advice was to get the Rott out of the cage, not run him with the GSD... But anyway... When I read this Scope: it took a few days for the heirachy disputes to settle and initially i would put the rotty back in his pen at dinner time, then let him out again about half an hour later... now i feed them separately but at the same time, they will both stay in a drop next to each other, focus on me, wait for however long i make them, recall to me (at the same time), then go eat their own dinner... there's no fights over food or anything and my relationship with the rotty has improved a great deal now that he has more freedom... i can do so many more things with him without him getting defensive... & i have been doing prey drive training with the rotty (will start with the shep later, one dog at a time is enough)... and it's also helped a lot with him.. K9: I might like to remind you that our motivation for rehabilitating & or training dogs comes from seeing results. Take a look at what you have achieved & not what you havent mastered just yet... Pat yourself on the back somewhere along the line for the results you have gained... the shepherd is the main problem here, she is starting to annoy the sh*t out of me, because every time i go outside (and i do try to spend a fair bit of time with them every day), she starts to whinge and whine and carry on, and snap at the rotty, who usually ignores her now... K9: whilst I have seen Hudson (Rott) I havent seen the GSD, but from what I can read, you have at the same time or there abouts, removed her from living inside, removed him from a pen, moved house (?) & a pack adjustment has taken place or is taking place... As you say that things have settled down with the two of them after hierachy disputes have now settled, it seems that they are headed in the right direction. When you enter the back yard the stakes have gone up & your seeing the end of the GSD trying to state her pack position, correcting him, demanding your attention etc... and i'm really not sure what to do because nothing i have tried so far seems to work... i try to give them both attention at the same time but the shepherd wont sit down and be happy to be patted, she has to keep harrasing the rotty... even if he wanders off elsewhere and she's the only one getting attention she still wants to keep annoying him... K9: This sounds like she is a Beta type, Alpha wanna be... This is natural behaviour for this type of dog & will not settle easily, but her demanding attention from you can be controlled with a little obedience training with a solid reward (pack drive reward) structure in place.. i can get her to drop next to me but she keeps whinging and sits there quivering and crying and wont shut up... K9: she will if she knows that when she has completed the task you will reward her with behaviour from you (ALPHA) that she finds rewarding... it's starting to annoy me because i can see myself losing my temper with her again, K9: having a program that you believe will work will put you in a less frustrated position & stop you loosing your temper... You havent emailed me at all with any questions, you should be aware that I will answer questions free to all clients & often those who are not clients with no limits.... ************************************************ General Info on hitting dogs.. Hitting your dog will not give you one percent of training advantage, it will however damge the bond & make your dog less respectful. I dont think its a tradgety as some here do, why? because Im faced woth people who do it all the time, even in front of me.. Why do people do it? Lack of knowledge, they dont have the answer to the problem in front of them, this created frustration, they hit the dog to release the tension, as Kit Kat explained... Experienced hitters? This is usually something that is again a mistake people make, they hit the dog once & the dog seemed to calm down, so they think they are on a winner... The dog was knocked out of drive & has only learned not to trigger drive in the presence of the owner... Thats all.. They havent stumbled on the cup of knowledge... When someone asks for help, which Scope clearly did, they already understand that the dont have all the answers, in this case, she knows she did the wrong thing & clearly explained that she knew it was wrong & wanted advice on how to help her dogs so that this mistake would not occur again... I think many have posted that it was a mistake, & Im sure that if Scope wasnt 100% sure that it was a mistake, she is now. So, I think that there have been more than enough negative comments about the incident, how about dropping it now? Or, I will respond to the future posts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KitKat Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 K9Force :p PS...so when's that DVD going to hit the sales?? :p I think with all us Dol'ers buying it it would become a box office hit in no time :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 K9: If someone will shoot it & edit it with me it would be done, dogs / training, thats easy.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rugerfly Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 'experienced hitters' :p Off i go to rebuild my doggy bond....was wondering why Fly always sticks up her dew claw at me.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 'experienced hitters' :p Off i go to rebuild my doggy bond....was wondering why Fly always sticks up her dew claw at me. K9: Hitting your dog will damage the bond, the way your implying it, you are under the impression that I said it will destroy the bond... I didnt... Im glad that the bond between you & your dog hasnt been destroyed, dogs are quite resiliant... But that doesnt mean that the bond is 100% either.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Rottweiler Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 When someone asks for help, which Scope clearly did, they already understand that the dont have all the answers, in this case, she knows she did the wrong thing & clearly explained that she knew it was wrong & wanted advice on how to help her dogs so that this mistake would not occur again... I know Scope quite well and have had her come to the Rotty club with Husdson for some training. Considering what a strong minded and powerful dog Hudson is, Scope takes all care and resposibility with how he conducts himself at training AND does a great job of it where many other people would give up on him or recommend him to a security home. With what Steve has said above, I agree with him 100%! Scope does not need your angered scorn for something she is fully aware is wrong and had the guts to post it on the list. I'm not recommending that anyone needs to admire her for doing this rather they should be aware that this is a cry for help not to be chastised. As for people hitting their dogs, 80% of the people that I have dealt with over the years have admitted to hitting their dogs at one stage or another. 19% out of the other 20% probably did too. Whether it's open or closed hand, it's still a hit and where most times it unjustifiable or unreasonable there have been situations where people have explained their motive and I agreed that they were in a difficult circumstance. Have I smacked my own dogs? Yes! Did it dimish the relationship? NO! Did it improve the sitaution? Yes! Did the punishment fit the crime? Yes! Was there an altenative at the time? No! Now don't be stupid and read this thinking that I condone brutality to dogs or animals, as I have regularly made it clear that I despise cruelty to animals as it is an indication of a coward. To say to some one that you should never ever hit a dog in ANY circumstance is rediculous! What would you advise someone to do if a dog was hanging off them or a family member? Yes this situation is extreme, but ask yourself this and be resonable, Would you stand there and negotiate with the dog or would you defend yourself? I know this is a public forum guys and everyone has the right to post their responses but try and be a little analytical about what is being said before the daggers are produced. HR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shekhina Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 To say to some one that you should never ever hit a dog in ANY circumstance is rediculous! What would you advise someone to do if a dog was hanging off them or a family member? Yes, that is a very different situation and it would be totally understandable. But punching into a dog out of your own frustration is never OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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