saintlysusan Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 I need ideas. My St Bernard Boris is getting older and I really thought he would stop trying to bite the kids by now but he hasnt. He draws blood daily and no matter how well they say "no bite" or try to walk away or totally ignore him, he still does it. I'm sure he thinks hes one of the kids and bosses them around. He was the only pup in litter and mostly hand raised also and I think thats made him spoilt or something, he sure is defiant! He's very different with me than the kids/hubby and I usually have to rescue the kids (lol) Any suggestions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peibe Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 Sounds abit dangerous to me, I would be calling in an animal behavourist if it was my dogs and kids Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 (edited) Saintly Susan: My St Bernard Boris is getting older and I really thought he would stop trying to bite the kids by now but he hasnt.He draws blood daily and no matter how well they say "no bite" or try to walk away or totally ignore him, he still does it. He's very different with me than the kids/hubby and I usually have to rescue the kids (lol) I seem to recall advising at the time you first raised the issue of bite inhibition and humping that you were being unrealistic expecting your small children to be able to discipline Boris effectively. I'll give the same advice now as I did then. No unsupervised interactions. You or hubby must step in IMMEDIATELY, EVERY TIME Boris behaves inappropriately towards the kids. Be very very firm with the dog about this. The kids have neither the strength nor the savvy to deal with such a large pup. It's only going to get more out of hand unless you are consistent about this behaviour immediately every time it happens. This behaviour continues because you have allowed it to continue - it has nothing to do with whether this puppy was a singleton. I wonder if you have developed a little more understanding now about why breeders may not choose to sell giant breed puppies to families with young kids. You were extremely outspoken in your condemnation of that policy at the time of your first posts. Edited January 18, 2007 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbi Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 Hi Saintlysusan, How old is your puppy now? You should have been receiving help on this topic from your breeder in relation to seeking problem solving tips, prior to now, have you not contacted them, or they not been able to offer successful suggestions in management of this problem.? The problem goes back to when Boris first arrived home, trace it back to then, and work it forward, it is UNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOUR! Do you have a "time out" area for Boris, that you can seperate him and the children? How old are the children? Did he always nip? There are many ways of dealing with this type of behaviour, but you must realise that it must be dealt with as fast as possible, as the longer it continues the more difficult it becomes to resolve. When we let our puppies go to families with children, we spend a considerable amount of time, discussing the needs of the children and the needs of the puppy, what is acceptable, and what is unacceptable, and the behavioural development starts from the moment your puppy arrives home. Encouraging chasing games, rough and tumble games, and the like are all never a good idea, as it does not give a Saint puppy who grows fast in body, but no equally in mind the opportunity to understand that one day, it was ok, to play rough, but not the next when all of a sudden he was slightly bigger. If he was a "nipper" from the outset, then it should have been dealt with early, as you will see dealing with it as he becomes larger is much more difficult. A time out area is a neccessity. He must understand, that nipping, is unacceptable, and he will not get a response, (any response), and as such, by simply the fact that you, or your husband have to go and intervene, and the kids would be squealing, and running to get away, is all response from him. He should be placed in the time out area, where he gets no attention, and then quietly let out at a brief later time, by an adult, and supervised where he is quiet, and well behaved. Only then let the children become involved. You can contact me if you need further discussion or help on this matter, I am a little late at reply sometimes at present, but you have all methods to contact me, and I am happy to help you through this. Debbi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benji's Mum Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 As a mum of 2 small kids with 3 dogs who are all capable of biting but haven't had the opportunity, I just want to add how unacceptable I think this is. I feel the children must be supervised and protected at all times, either by you personally or by putting the dog in an escape-proof timeout area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 Firstly being an only pup has no baring at all,infact most hand raised pups are so human orientated they are much easier to live with & learn at a much younger age human commands & they ways of life. I agree when you posted about the humping that was the crucial stage of training,sadly many people thinks its funny until you end up with now,now its a problem,dog is older & everyone wants it fixed. The first thing you need to look at is why is the dog still mouthing,when does it do it the most & what activities are being done at that time??What do you do when it happens,has the dog learnt to sit??Have you started obedience classes??Have you talked with the breeder about the problems?? The other factor is ofcourse the dog training is also as successful as the childrens behaviour around the dog.It needs to be 50/50 in the blame game as generally problems start because the situation was fun at first & then out of control Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 I need ideas.My St Bernard Boris is getting older and I really thought he would stop trying to bite the kids by now but he hasnt. He draws blood daily and no matter how well they say "no bite" or try to walk away or totally ignore him, he still does it. I'm sure he thinks hes one of the kids and bosses them around. He was the only pup in litter and mostly hand raised also and I think thats made him spoilt or something, he sure is defiant! He's very different with me than the kids/hubby and I usually have to rescue the kids (lol) Any suggestions? I doubt that being a singleton has anything to do with it, sounds as if he was allowed to get away with this behaviour as a young puppy and now that he's bigger and harder to handle you want him to stop. Rule no 1 of puppy ownership.......never allow your puppy to behave in any way that won't be acceptable in an adult dog. Biting and drawing blood is as others have said totally unacceptable and it's also very dangerous, what will happen if he bites someone else's child, both you and the dog could be in serious trouble. You can't expect small children to deal with this, if you're not there to supervise keep the dog and the children separated and when you do see him mouthing or biting discipline the dog immediately. I would take the dog firmly by the scruff of his neck, give him a little shake and a very firm 'no' and remove him from the area, make sure that he knows you're displeased. You must do this every single time you see him doing it, don't allow him to do it EVER! Please don't mess around with this, it's serious, if you find that you can't correct the behaviour bring in a professional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintlysusan Posted January 18, 2007 Author Share Posted January 18, 2007 Hi. Thanks for the help everyone, Its just one more hurdle we need to overcome I guess, we really are very consistant in what he's allowed to do and what hes not, we have never let him bite the kids and he is allways put outside if he does it. My kids arnet actually doing anything to provoke it either this time, they know to keep calm and walk, not run and all that and the minute you turn your back to him he will grab a arm or bite a butt etc, not 100% of the time but alot. My kids are almost 4yrs, almost 6yrs, 10 & 13. They give him commands like sit/ roll over etc and he does it but he just loves to also bite them! I have no doubt he adores the kids, they cuddle up , but I literally have to pry open his Jaws to make him let them go sometimes. Maybe he dosent realise he is hurting them? I get them to squeel so it makes it known to him that it hurts but he dosent stop, however if I was to do it he would let go straight away!?? I probally havnt tried hard enough to tell the breeder either what a problem its becoming but shes hard to get ahold of and she didnt have any tips really last time we spoke anyhow. Can you re-send me your number Debbi? I lost all my emails I think. Hi Saintlysusan,How old is your puppy now? You should have been receiving help on this topic from your breeder in relation to seeking problem solving tips, prior to now, have you not contacted them, or they not been able to offer successful suggestions in management of this problem.? The problem goes back to when Boris first arrived home, trace it back to then, and work it forward, it is UNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOUR! Do you have a "time out" area for Boris, that you can seperate him and the children? How old are the children? Did he always nip? There are many ways of dealing with this type of behaviour, but you must realise that it must be dealt with as fast as possible, as the longer it continues the more difficult it becomes to resolve. When we let our puppies go to families with children, we spend a considerable amount of time, discussing the needs of the children and the needs of the puppy, what is acceptable, and what is unacceptable, and the behavioural development starts from the moment your puppy arrives home. Encouraging chasing games, rough and tumble games, and the like are all never a good idea, as it does not give a Saint puppy who grows fast in body, but no equally in mind the opportunity to understand that one day, it was ok, to play rough, but not the next when all of a sudden he was slightly bigger. If he was a "nipper" from the outset, then it should have been dealt with early, as you will see dealing with it as he becomes larger is much more difficult. A time out area is a neccessity. He must understand, that nipping, is unacceptable, and he will not get a response, (any response), and as such, by simply the fact that you, or your husband have to go and intervene, and the kids would be squealing, and running to get away, is all response from him. He should be placed in the time out area, where he gets no attention, and then quietly let out at a brief later time, by an adult, and supervised where he is quiet, and well behaved. Only then let the children become involved. You can contact me if you need further discussion or help on this matter, I am a little late at reply sometimes at present, but you have all methods to contact me, and I am happy to help you through this. Debbi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benji's Mum Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 Honestly, you can't turn your back on them, not even for a minute. If you have to go and do something, separate them first. Eg on a lead and take him with you, in a crate, in an enclosure or out the backyard with the back door locked with the kids inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 I wouldnt have a kid squell whilst the dog has hold,dogs react to the noise & often the reason kids are bitten in an attack is because of the noise. Depending on which kid it is the really need to give it a command & start to gain respect.Its obviously happen for awhile now & its a game for the dog.Kid squells,mum pries mouth open & the dog has all the attention it wants & above all one the game. It really is time to address the verbal respect,using food reward will also help. If the dog is doing it you need to use a method that doesnt give him more attention than he deerves. If he is wearing a collar gently hold it & tell him to "sit" no other words just the set command.Use food aswell if he responds but get his focus off what hes doing with the lest amount of fuss but above all you need to stop it before he does it Its a case now of setting the rules of who is in charge & what is acceptable behaviour . I would also consider he isnt hurting by trying to save. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 Sounds like you are excusing his behaviour ... oh its not too bad ... HE'S DRAWING BLOOD ON YOUR CHILDREN Both dogs I have only ever bit me once. My mastiff on the first day I got him, grabbed my whole hand and wouldnt open his jaws. Grabbed him, growled loudly at him and gave him a good scruffing. Never tried it again. YOU are responsible for your dogs behaviour. Punish him. Grab him by the scruff when he tries to go for the kids and give him a good growl. And not letting go? WTF I find it unbelievable you let your children play around with this animal you have to physically prise off them. Sounds like this dog has learned 'trick' obedience, he knows if he does little things he will get what he wants. Dont ever let the kids squeal when he grabs them. Stay calm, grab him and dont make a fuss as he may bite harder or even break the arm of a little one if they thrash about. The trick is to pre-empt his attacks. Starting to get nippy? Grab him, growl and outside. NO second chance. If gets cocky enough he may grab their faces or another visiting child. Call your breeder and get help NOW before one of your children are permanently injured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintlysusan Posted January 18, 2007 Author Share Posted January 18, 2007 Thanks Showdog, Your ideas are probally spot on but I never *let* it happen and now all of a sudden want it to change. I havnt ever let him hump anyone but have seen him try it on a couple of them, I never let him do alot of stuff he shouldnt do but he still bites the kids if he gets the chance. I will be more vigilent from now on. I have read on here in many posts that stern-ness works, and also that a loud pitched ouch (the squeel I mentioned b4) also works, obviously it dosent with the kids as their voices arnet loud enough to make him take notice, never the less it can work with most dogs. Perhaps that was bad advice as he seems to think he can still bite, maybe thats where the problem lies. I wouldnt have a kid squell whilst the dog has hold,dogs react to the noise & often the reason kids are bitten in an attack is because of the noise.Depending on which kid it is the really need to give it a command & start to gain respect.Its obviously happen for awhile now & its a game for the dog.Kid squells,mum pries mouth open & the dog has all the attention it wants & above all one the game. It really is time to address the verbal respect,using food reward will also help. If the dog is doing it you need to use a method that doesnt give him more attention than he deerves. If he is wearing a collar gently hold it & tell him to "sit" no other words just the set command.Use food aswell if he responds but get his focus off what hes doing with the lest amount of fuss but above all you need to stop it before he does it Its a case now of setting the rules of who is in charge & what is acceptable behaviour . I would also consider he isnt hurting by trying to save. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flaves Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 I don't have a large breed pup. I have a medium dog and he has only tried to nip/bite once. He has never EVER done it again. He was grabbed by the muzzle, growled at and put outside. He knew it was a nono Bella who lives next to me has Lilly, who when gets excited has a nibble. She did it to Bella one day, quite hard, Bella reacted as i did and she does not do it again. Maybe your reaction is too soft and not gruff enough. Try a deeper tone. Grabbing him by the scruff will not hurt him, he is a breed with a lot a loose skin. He needs a punishment befitting th ecrime. Growl, scruff shake and removed and ignored for 10-15 minutes. Then reintroduced. Repeat until he learns. Hope this has helped and Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 Shoot me down in flames but I think it's time for some negative reinforcement. Children's safety is involved here. The next time Boris goes to mouth or jump on one of the kids, do your nut. REALLY do your nut. (Warn the kids about this) Dial up banshee level volume and yell "NOOOOOOOOOOOOO" grab a rolled up newspaper (you prepared earlier) and flog the floor near Boris and a wall if nearby and then turf him outside. My guess from your previous methods of dealing with this is that he won't know what hit him (figuratively speaking of course). Do not treat it as a joke - and he won't either. It will be best if you can time it so that he's about to do it rather than actually mouthing. I reckon within a few visits from Cyclone Saintly Susan he'll be thinking good and hard about doing it. Of course remember to praise and reward any good interactions too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Bella* Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 Off topic sorry, but I would really love to see a recent pic of Boris, haven't seen him since puppy school, he must be HUGE by now How much does he weigh and how tall is he now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 We have a client that has a very demanding dog,would nip her arms ,draw blood,bark just act like a kid having a tanty. These people where so quielty spoken the dog didnt take them seriously & by the time they had said "no" & done the dance of the wiggles the dog thought it was a blast & just blossomed in that atmoshpere. The dog didnt do it with us & it just new where it stood & the dog felt confident & respected us.The dog actually was an angel just the owners werent above the dogs pecking order. Well one day we decided its time for them to deal with the issue. one day when she picked the dog up that we are going to do it different this time. We told her exactly what she had to do,we also gave her a book & told her if the dog doesnt respond the first time,slam the book on the bench & the instant the dog looks up give her the command.Well these people followed through with this method ,most occasions they didnt need to use the book but every so often the dog would just try its luck to see who was the leader.In 2 months this dog has turned over a new leaf,the owners are so thrilled & the dog is so much more calmer & above all doesnt do the bad stuff anymore. We have stressed to them that a good result doesnt mean you let your guard down & they havent. These people paid over $2000 for professional help.now they spent $1 for a fly swat,leave it the one spot & if for any reason the dog defies there vocal commands they bang the bench,they are now redoing there obedience with confidience & have a whole new luv for the dog. The problem is people yell the dogs name so many times without anything happenng the dog goes deaf,they say "no" so many times with no result the word means nothing. The fact is whether it be a chi or a great dane the same rules apply ,its a dog,its respects its owners & the rules must be consistant . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flaves Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 Totally agree with Poodlefan and Showdog. Otherwise you will have an 80kg dog who is dangerous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintlysusan Posted January 19, 2007 Author Share Posted January 19, 2007 Totally agree with Poodlefan and Showdog.Otherwise you will have an 80kg dog who is dangerous. ST Bernards arnet dangerous, I think I over reacted abit. 100% supervision is the key and hes fine. (Very naughty, but fine) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJean Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 Totally agree with Poodlefan and Showdog. Otherwise you will have an 80kg dog who is dangerous. ST Bernards arnet dangerous, I think I over reacted abit. 100% supervision is the key and hes fine. (Very naughty, but fine) St Bernards are not dangerous. They can be taught to be dangerous unwittingly by inadequate disciplinary practises and upbringing caused by ignorance and tunnel vision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 Susan a dog doesn't have to be aggressive to be dangerous. A giant breed dog that doesn't understand kids aren't chew toys can injure a child seriously. Take this seriously. Otherwise you'll have a full grown dog still acting like a puppy. If he's drawing blood he's overstepped the line - there's nothing ambiguous about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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