huski

Today is four years since my special (or is that thpethal?) little beagle was born. She has been the most challenging dog I've ever owned but it's been worth it for how much I've learnt about dogs and for the relationship we have now. I remember bringing her home expecting to have a cuddly little beagle baby and thinking, after training a Siberian Husky, how hard can a beagle be?? My little eight week old monster wanted nothing to do with me, she didn't want to be picked up or cuddled, didn't want to sit with us, just wanted to go off and do her own thing. She used to bark at us for our food, would steal it off our plates as we were eating it, and was so challenging to live with I worried I'd never bond with her. I remember leaving the first night of obedience school in tears because my five month old puppy was the naughtiest dog on the field; she would growl at me if I tried to move her into heel position, wanted nothing to do with me, pulled on the leash and barked at all the other dogs. Now she loves to work and we often get asked to do demos at club for new members. Poor Daisy had to put up with me using a myriad of training methods that failed one after the other before finally finding the right one for us, and she gives me everything she can whenever I ask. She's a very special dog, and I am so thankful for owning her. The first photo I ever saw of Daisy: Her first day home: Dressed up as Super Beagle! With her first obedience trophy She looks less than impressed because she blew a 91 and a first place at the last minute on her down stay But still came in 3rd. With me Happy birthday to my Evil Beagle!

Tiggy are you getting a Warley baby??? Fantastic news!! She is just beautiful. I can't wait to hear all about her and follow your training journey. Pax I love seeing Prix work, he is just beautiful to watch.

Thanks Rach! Got a short recall vid today Isn't she cute!

Once again Garry, we weren't talking about training in low levels of distraction. The OP had trouble getting focus in high levels of distraction for which you recommended remedying by using leash corrections. And if you re read my post above, I wasn't talking about using about turns, but the big Koehler style leash corrections that people like your friend malsrock recommend frequently. I took my dog from a dog who could be corrected hard enough on a check chain that her front paws would lift off the ground and she still wouldn't realise and would have her neck out still trying to scent, who I couldn't get more than a couple of seconds of focus from even in low levels of distraction to a dog who will focus like this in high levels of distraction; With no physical corrections. She's a pretty reliable dog too. Definitely not perfect work or particularly high drive but the fact remains I haven't worked her on anything other than a flat collar and haven't intentionally administered any leash corrections and she's still become switched on, drivey and reliable. It can be done without using physical corrections, it can even be done well. I have no problem with physical corrections at all, but they don't need to be used in every situation on every dog. The fact is, that there are some situations where using physical corrections are detrimental to the dog, just as there are some situations where they can be a good choice. No one here is arguing that physical corrections should never be used. We are saying simply that building focus can be done without needing to use them.

Perhaps I am not being clear enough SpecTraining, once again... leash corrections are not the only kind that you can use. There are other ways show your dog there is a consequence for certain actions. I am not making comparisons between how I train and Koehler style training but simply saying... I have a dog who walks reliably on a loose leash, who was not trained with big leash corrections. In fact I have seen dozens of dogs trained to reliably walk on a loose leash without needing big Koehler style leash corrections. Besides that, why would I use Koehler style leash corrections to train focus? I trained my dog to be more focused by building her drive, big leash corrections in the drive building stage would have hinder our training not improved it. I corrected her on a check chain plenty of times when we first started obedience and the only thing it did was teach her to switch off in training and made it harder to get her to go into drive when I wanted her to. She's a low drive dog, Koehler methods would be unsuitable and unnecessary to use on her.

Far be it for me to speak for K9 Pro but I've never seen him use a Koehler style leash correction, and I've seen him train quite a few dogs to walk reliably on a loose leash. I also do all my training on flat collar and have since day one... and am yet to be advised to use a Koehler style correction, but I still teach my dog there are consequences to certain actions without giving a big leash correction, a leash correction is not the only way to show the dog there are negative consequences to specific actions.

Aww thanks everyone. I will try and take her out again this week and get it on video! Shell that is an AWESOME moment! You must have felt sooooo good!!!

MRB, this is getting OT now, but I think what's really important is how you use positive reinforcement. I have see PR/clicker trained dogs working like crap in the obedience ring - no drive, focus, bored etc.

SpecTraining. Have you missed the part where Aidan has said that he is not totally opposed to using corrections? And has actually used them himself? And that the point he was making was not that he would never use corrections or thinks that they should never be used but simply that he would not necessarily use them in this instance?

I have no problem whatsoever with using corrections, punishments, e-collars, prongs etc. But we aren't talking about fine tuning high level performance dogs, we are (were) talking about the OP who has issues with getting focus in high levels of distraction with a young adolescent dog. I am not saying not to use corrections with the dog; but that my first port of call would not be issuing a correction. I don't like to throw my dog in the deep end and then punish her for failing to give me 110%. Focus, drive etc IMO has to be built gradually, you need to introduce distractions gradually, not put the dog in high levels of distraction and then punish it. That's setting the dog up to fail, not training it. And let's not forget that leash corrections are not the only kind of corrections we can use. Removal of reward, time out, ending the game etc are all aversive to the dog on some level, I don't think anyone can argue they never use aversives, I am yet to see someone who doesn't.

Thanks Seita! Gave it another shot tonight and it wasn't bad as I thought it would be: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxhjcbgCYgU Any comments or tips appreciated :p Am looking forward to making it HEAPS better!

That depends completely on what you want to do with your training skills. Folks that are just starting out might benefit equally well from really getting to thoroughly know one approach. It's amazing what can be achieved with a solid knowledge of "just one or two quadrants". It may be worth asking yourself what kind of training you want to do and what the market is like in your local area. A lot of potential clients might prefer a dog trainer that "pretends two quadrants don't exist". I saw an article in Dog's Life magazine today that suggested the most important thing in selecting a trainer was that they use positive methods. Whether it's bollocks or not is completely irrelevant. What's relevant is what people are being told to look for in a trainer. I'd be seriously taking that into consideration if it were me. How can anyone be a good trainer without at least understanding all four quadrants? You don't have to use them, but shouldn't a good trainer learn as much as possible? I wouldn't go near a trainer who said 'I only learn about one method and that's it!'

Thanks I was so proud especially because she never used to be like that and I never thought we would get there. That is classic! What a good boy especially recalling for someone else! I agree it's funny how dogs can so easily pick the weak link out. She sounds like such a good dog

Woohoo!! I think Kyza will LOVE it ;) Bugger

Not anything really special but I just have to share a 'moment' I had today. I took Daisy out late this afternoon to our local park to do a training session, we've only been there a couple of times before as we've only just moved into the area. Was having a good training session and thought I'd let Daisy go for an off leash romp around the field as there was no one else around. We train off leash all the time but this was one of the first times I let her off leash for a real run around in a big open area (I am a bit pedantic about having a very good recall and normally have her on a long line 'just in case'). At first she was hanging around me and wouldn't go anywhere but then had this realisation that I was encouraging her to have a run and sniff and she bolted ahead of me. She picked up a scent quickly and had her nose right into the ground, about 50 meters from me. I called her once and she immediately stopped scenting, turned around and ran as fast as she could back to me ;) I rewarded her and encouraged her to run off again and it became a bit of a game, she would run as fast as she could away from me and then I'd call her and she'd spin back and come rushing back... I'd reward her, release her and she'd run off again ;) So anyway, my 'moment' was that I realised I'd finally crossed that hurdle of being able to call my scent hound off a scent. She must have recalled off a scent at least half a dozen times tonight, instantly and without even thinking about it. Of course she does it in training all the time and when I have her on the long line but tonight I put it to the test and had her recalling off scents from a large distance (more than 100m). I've never had a dog with a reliable recall before and I never thought I'd be able to get one with Daisy. She used to turn off so much when she was on a scent even waving steak under her nose wouldn't get her attention. I realised my training has paid off and I can let my dog have freedom that I didn't ever think she would have. It is the best feeling ever Does anyone else have any of those moments they can share?

Good luck Tiggy! How does everyone train the DOR? I am having issues with getting it right. Daisy can do it over a short distance, but not a longer distance. She can do COP from quite a distance so I'm not sure what we are doing wrong with the DOR, I've never trained it before so don't really know where to start. LOVE Ella's work Nic! You must be so chuffed

You'll probably get more responses if you posted this in the training forum, but here's my opinion... I believe in pack structure but I do think it's fluid and I don't agree with myths like the alpha roll technique. An alpha dog in reality does not alpha roll other pack members, the lower pack members will approach them and submit willingly with no force from the alpha. IMO, a 'true' alpha does not need to be forceful, because the other dogs respect and trust them and look to them for guidance. If you need to use intimidation and force then you are not the alpha, and I don't want my dogs learning that the way to win is through force, intimidation or aggression. You just have to watch Cesar Milan's show to see how often he is bitten when using these types of methods. I also believe that some dogs can be rank (dominant) aggressive but they are quite rare and the majority of aggression is fear based. Totally agree with this part I think it's really important to provide leadership to your dog. I don't think that should mean that you are forceful or intimidating, but that you are someone your dog respects, trusts and looks to for guidance. You set the rules and control the resources. You dictate what behaviour is and isn't acceptable. I don't think trust and respect can be developed by pinning your dog to the ground and growling in it's face, but it is a great way to get bitten

I am sure Steve will be able to expand on it more when he next pops into the thread but to give you a little more information, the workshop will be based on Steve's own motivational training techniques including the training in drive system he is known for. It will be focused on competition but I am sure anyone who goes who is interested in learning more about how to motivate their dogs whether for competition or fun will take a lot out of it. Training in drive is one of the most positive rewarding methods to use to motivate your dog IMO. Awesome work MrsD well done :thumbsup:

WOOHOOO Go Nic and Ella!! Her OC is next

Seita has quite The brag tonight I am so excited about it I am posting about it while I am out drinking and clubbing

If you got a cabin you will have a handler space. You'd have to ask Ann from CT about the difference between a handler space and spectator space. PMSL! Takes one to know one Nic ;) A case each should be enough Can't wait to catch up with you and Dagboy MrsD I'm not scary now he's met me :p IMO no not at all, even better actually Awwww you gotta move up here SA!! Or at least come for a visit

But the point is that many people do and we don't know if the OP is one of these people - TBH, not many people know how to build a good foundation and introduce distractions gradually. Throwing the dog in the deep end and then just giving corrections when it backfires often ends up with a poorly trained dog and a frustrated handler.

A common problem I see at my obedience club frequently are people who only ever train their dogs in low levels of distraction then take them to club for training and ask them to work in a very high level of distraction. To me the problem in that instance is not that the dog needs to be given a heap of leash corrections but that it needs to be trained to focus around distractions more gradually. I am not saying don't ever use corrections, I don't have any problem with them. But getting focus around distractions is a very common problem and often occurs because people go from low levels of distraction to high levels of distraction missing the stages in between - that to me is handler error not something the dog should be punished for. Time before distraction before distraction. The people who I see take their dogs from low levels of distraction to club training and then try to deal with their dogs by correcting them instead of gradually building focus don't tend to build a very reliable, drivey or focused dogs... JME.

the wine room is the place to be Should be great fun!! And i'm sure the workshop will be good too ;)

Boo But... on the other hand, yay. Cos it will be the next month we are in Melbourne for the MDBA awards drinking large quantities of wine celebrating your victory :D