Steve

At least the people who advertise on gumtree who might have some of it wrong are taking responsibility for placing their animals themselves. Stopping them advertising there isn't going to stop anyone from breeding them and may increase the numbers sold in pet shops and killed or dumped. You cant just perceive a problem and scratch together a solution if you are not educated on the entire issue without having some pretty rotten negative un intended consequences.

By the way right now there are breeders who are registered with their state's CC who breed cross bred dogs and or breeds in development - some will never breed a recognised purebred and never intended to when they became an ANKC registered breeder. Some breed both cross breds and purebreds.

Its pretty hard to get a breed recognised and before they can get the criteria they have to have kept their own records and stud registry. but some dont want to have their breeds recognised by the ANKC . I personally know a mini Foxie breeder and I would consider her one of the most ethical and responsible breeders I have ever known .Usually in a breed in development stud books are still open but they cant just mate their dogs to any old thing and have it recognised - so no they cant breed their Mini Foxie to a chi and have it recognised. The Australian Cobberdog people test their dogs for 28 different things and breeding to a standard to get to a point where they have a predictable healthy breed is every bit as important to them as any breeders I have ever known. Ive also known some pretty rough ANKC registered breeders who I would consider to be back yard breeders with little interest in how what they do now will impact on future generations

There is a bullarab registry that's working on getting the breed officially recognised. I believe there is also one for Bosdogs and American Bulldogs. There needs to be a recorded history, pedigree and standard for developing breeds or breeds not yet recognised by the ANKC in my understanding. I'm still confused. Are these organisations held in similar esteem to the ANKC affiliated clubs and the working breed clubs? What about the AAPDB - the body that welcomes pet shop owners as members too? Does this mean that the ANKC isn't the benchmark for registered breeders/exhibitors any more? How many of these organisations organise/host dog shows for conformation? Do they have similar championship/point score requirements? Some do organise conformation shows but that doesnt make them better than another that doesn't - it just makes them different . You seriously cant expect that the whole world should only allow people who are registered with the ANKC to be able to advertise their puppies? And this petitions would stop all of us - are we to simply give up our rights and what we want to do because someone might advertise there who is dodgy? I still can't see where the distinction is between registered breeders and BYBs if that's what you're saying...is there a way to explain it so I can understand what is meant then by BYB? Sometimes there is no difference between a BYB and a registered breeder. In NSW Dogs NSW , the MDBA , the mini foxie club and the AAPDB are equally recognised by the state government. The reality is there are numerous registration bodies including local council so you can be a registered breeder even if you are not breeding ANKC recognised breeds or if you are not an ANKC member.

There is a bullarab registry that's working on getting the breed officially recognised. I believe there is also one for Bosdogs and American Bulldogs. There needs to be a recorded history, pedigree and standard for developing breeds or breeds not yet recognised by the ANKC in my understanding. I'm still confused. Are these organisations held in similar esteem to the ANKC affiliated clubs and the working breed clubs? What about the AAPDB - the body that welcomes pet shop owners as members too? Does this mean that the ANKC isn't the benchmark for registered breeders/exhibitors any more? How many of these organisations organise/host dog shows for conformation? Do they have similar championship/point score requirements? Some do organise conformation shows but that doesnt make them better than another that doesn't - it just makes them different . You seriously cant expect that the whole world should only allow people who are registered with the ANKC to be able to advertise their puppies? And this petitions would stop all of us - are we to simply give up our rights and what we want to do because someone might advertise there who is dodgy?

Dogs dont have to be a recognised breed to utilise a stud registry which isn't ANKC - the Mini foxies for example have a very legitimate stud registry which will never be recognised as a breed by the ANKC. Just because you may not see any other stud registry as legitimate or any breed that isnt recognised as worthy it doesn't mean that they are not - also in some states its the law for a breeder to be registered as a breeder with their local council. They are in fact registered breeders. The AAPDB register breeders but not dogs. The MDBA registers breeder members and some of their members dogs including some which are not yet recognised as breeds yet but which the breeders are developing. these are not BYB and test their dogs more than most and comply with codes and regs. When gumtree or anyone else asks - are you a registered breeder then if someone is saying yes they are - its no method of determining who they may be registered with. If you mean to advise people to only purchase dogs from ANKC registered breeders who are breeding recognised breeds then thats exactly what you need to say because there are heaps of orgs which register breeders.

Now how did you get to that?

Danois - nobody actually enforces these 'rules' on GT. That's my issue with it. If a breeder advertises as "registered" then it follows that the ad needs to provide evidence of said registration. So many breeders claiming to be "registered" are not actually KC registered at all. Some have membership of dodgy "wannabe" registration bodies. Others are just lying. There's nothing to stop them. The better alternative would be for sites such as Gumtree to insist on ONLY Registered breeders (for all types of species, not just dogs) to advertise their animals...and that evidence of registration be provided and all ads moderated for approval. People are registered with a heap of different registering bodies including the local councils - just because you assume registered means only ANKC registered doesn't make it so.Its not up to them to determine whether the people advertising are not dodgy ,they are a classified site not the dog police or that all breeders need to be clones or members of one group that some one thinks should be the only source for puppies. This is still a free country and people get to be registered with groups other than the one you like and choose to buy from places other than an ANKC registered breeder. If we keep being told where we can advertise and demanding only those who have some special credential a minority group approve of the alternative is dumping them in a pound or pet shop or bumping them off. Troy has decided only ANKC registered breeders can advertise here but there are not too many others that have gone that way - so should we ban the rest from advertising because they have opted to include all breeders? Bit unrealistic.

Maybe Gumtree could set out some requirements ? It does. Sadly the rules it has are not actually applied to stop dodgy ads...including idiots studding out their "rare blue stiffies (no papers)" I kid you not. I report as many dodgy ads as I can but the people just re-jig the ad to "comply" with the rules. I've even seen a lot of BYBs claiming to be "Registered" breeders - there's no requirement for the ad to include the breeder's credentials if they select "registered" breeder. Why not? I know a lot of rescue people call it Scumtree. It's a great market place for the BYB. Its also a great place for the ANKC registered hobby breeders.

Knowing what the criteria is and what is needed for a project to be approved doesn't mean I have to agree with it in its entirety Thank you for the advice on what I should do if I think things should be different even though Ive already told you that I've done that and more. Your assumption that nothing else is being done to try to address the problem other than me "whinging" here is also not correct. I do agree that assuming industry funded research is flawed but in my experience that is an issue sometimes used to discredit them. Wonder why McGreevys research into use of the whip in racehorses is so much different to the industry funded research on the same topic - I also agree that this thread,this forum probably wasn't the best place to try to discuss this - so Ill shut up.

Dogs are PTS everyday by their owners for all sorts of reasons ,working dogs which don't do the job well enough have a similar fate. Ive personally met registered breeders who have killed puppies they don't want to keep for breeding or showing rather than have to advertise them. Bumping them off for reasons other people don't think are valid or moral wont ever be stopped whilst ever they are our property and we get to choose.

No that is not what I want and its not something that is going to happen, what's more Its not something that should have to happen to have studies done in this country which award students their PHd which would be more likely to give greater benefit to those completing the studies, dogs and the people who are responsible for them. The fact that we are told we can only have what we need or want and have the precious resources available used for studies which have greater credibility and use than some which are being done if we "get some funds together" speaks volumes for the current state of affairs and I again say that what I want is to have more studies done which could actually have credibility and make a real difference. Funny, I assumed those who were working toward a PHd and allocating approvals for these studies would have wanted the same thing.

You have to ask why they decided to take the dogs to a public reserve and shoot them and leave them for all to see rather than do them in on their cane farm -burn the bods or bury them etc -seems to say a lot about their arrogance and stupidity along with all else that's screaming out about this case.

That's what rings serious alarm bells to me. Smells like BYB or Puppy Mill to me. Didn't realise Soringer Spaniels had been elevated to 'designer dogs'. Must be because they are so pretty. How awful for them. I know- i had no idea they were gaining in popularity. Never a good thing when BYB'ers are involved They are potentially used in the spaniel x poodle mixes. Even potentially along the lines in an 'australian labradoodle'- i am pretty sure i read that once upon a time. Four Spinger spaniels were used at one point about 12 years ago as part of the development of the Australian Cobberdog with approval from the breeders of the springer spaniels. No one is using springer spaniels now to infuse into a multi generational registered Australian Labradoodle or an Australian Cobberdog. There are probably some doing first crosses and calling them what ever cute name they can dig up but doubtful its any more than most other breeds are

Just because the dogs have main registration doesn't mean the breeder is a member or registered with the CC and has to register the pups and once you own a dog you can breed if you want whether it has limited or papers or not.

Again you miss the point and I already know what the ANKC do and I'm not unhappy with the projects the ANKC are picking to fund. Whether or not the MDBA or anyone else is able to provide a grant is not relevant to what I'm saying. Some of the resources being used for studies which are being funded by the universities as part of scholarships for phd's could in my opinion, be better used. Chucking in and sticking your tongue out at me to tell me about how other studies maybe funded or how we might get more satisfaction by providing a scholarship or grant is not the same as discussing how current studies are chosen and how useful their finding are to the industry they are supposed to be helping by studying something.

Not all things are equal .My Maremma pups are treated and handled differently depending on what work they will be doing when they go home .Some are introduced to sheep, some to chickens and some are with us humans more in order to ensure when they go to their new home and are put in with the species they will live with for the rest of their lives that their bonding has commenced and experience tells me it benefits the new owner and the pup much more doing it this way . Its a major pain to consider all the work I put in getting a dog ready for sheep for example, for the people who said they wanted it to change their mind midstream - so I take a deposit. If you don't want to pay a deposit then you dont get one of my pups and you get the pup I choose for you based on your needs and the characteristics of the dog. I dont advertise my pups until Im sure they are alive and warm and healthy and I dont take a waiting list - unless its someone who already has one of my dogs - last time I kept a list there were almost a hundred on it .Its unusual for my Maremma pups to not be all sold and deposits paid by the time they are 4 weeks old. With my beagles I advertise them when they are two weeks old and you take the one I offer you and pay a deposit or you don't get one. Its rare for them not to be all sold with deposits on with in two weeks from me saying I have them. I get to be sure between when I first have contact and when the pup goes home to really get to know the person taking them and I know they feel comfortable with calling me in the middle of the night if they have a problem. I only place dogs on main register which pass all of my tests for breeding potential and conformation and you tell me up front that you may want to breed with it in the future and of course that you pass all of my tests during our conversation to own one of my puppies. All of this works for me if it doesn't work for you then there are other breeders I personally would prefer to place a deposit on a pup - many years ago I purchased a pup from a registered breeder and made agreements to have the pup handed over in about 3 weeks - she refused to take a deposit - gave me a spiel about how we needed to trust each other and how happy she was about her baby coming to live in such a lovely family that would love her etc . So the hubby and kids and I get all excited - go out and buy toys and stuff and chose a name and drool over the photo until 5 days before home time when I ring to get details on pick up and she simply told me she had sold it to someone else as she said now was entitled to do because I hadnt paid a deposit - who she felt would provide it with a better home - no notice , no apology no explanation just smack - no puppy. Our entire family was shattered and I have never forgiven her for the poor treatment she felt was acceptable .I would never consider buying a pup unless i had a deposit on it .

Why would I want people to be stopped from advertising their puppies on gumtree or anywhere else? Some of the nicest and best people who have taken my puppies over the last 40 plus years have originally found me via gumtree. Ive also had a couple of rotten ones including 2 today who found me from dogz.

I know you don't get to pick and choose unless you pay for it and I know its not just the dog industry and its every industry and Im not behaving as if I am being especially hard done by over and above anyone or any other group. The entire process of how scientific studies are chosen and used is flawed and needs to be reassessed because many of them use up the resources that are limited .The other side to it all is that the minute a study is paid for by a third party who has an interest in the results looking one way or another it is under suspicion anyway. You would hardly expect a poor report card on milk if the study was paid for by the dairy industry so why would one paid for by a breeder's group not come in for the same criticism? There is not enough information here for me to determine anything about the op's study except that of all things breeders want to have studied to tell them something they dont know or are curious about this is closer to the bottom of my list than most and on my wish list is the desire for us to be able to work together at least a little more than we do now before studies and methods are decided on in order for us all including the academics to utilise and take greater benefit from limited resources available for such studies which are not funded by an industry group. My comments specifically regarding methodology were in regard to the other study which was linked to regarding handling of young pups and the conclusions which were reached based on this which renders the study in my opinion pointless. I get it, asking for the ability to pick and choose without paying is a different concept and not the norm and how very dare I say I would like to see the resources used a tad differently but if we always do what has been done we often get the same result. Is it such a bad thing to ask for an open mind and for the industry and those that are supposedly going to benefit from the knowledge to be consulted regarding possible studies and methodology ?

And in the mean time we will watch as some studies are conducted and released using up the precious resources available which could be used to actually help us do what we do because if we don't pay we don't get to have input into what studies are needed or how studies may be able to be conducted differently to really tell us something. Breeder input prior to the set up of the methodology of the study regarding handling of the pups between 3 days and 21 days could have made a huge difference to the conclusions which were reached because of the obvious gaping holes that makes the conclusions reached and the study pointless.

But even if this could be proven to be more than imagination - having a dog witness the death of another dog is not illegal and the carcasses had different stages of decomposition as well so there isnt anything to show it wasnt one dog at a time. The entire situation would most definitely appear to be totally horrible and un acceptable - but whether or not there is anything to be done about someone shooting their own animals, when a quick shot by an experienced shooter is considered a quick non suffering death especially in rural areas, in a reasonably secluded rural area, where shooting might be something to be expected, in a reserve like this around here there are people out shooting every day of the week, and leaving their spent cartridges and bullets everywhere with the bodies in a reserve just as shooters often do with foxes and roos etc What are they going to charge them with?

If that really is the long term aim of the research there is a hell of a LONG distance between a study that shows ASSUMED stress levels in the dam during delivery and two weeks after delivery shows in some way in puppies behaviour at 7 weeks and being able to help breeders to make decisions on how to raise a litter to reduce stress to the mother! One dog will get stressed about things another wont even notice for a start. So many variables which may impact on the results including genetics and which will make breeders take it with a grain of salt. The only ones likely to give it any cred are those who want to use it to press a point about anti puppy farms. Part of the problem is that people who are not breeders determine what the research should be that will interest breeders without caring much for what breeders have to say about what they would like to see studied to help us.

I remember years ago in our local community dozens of dog bodies were found and investigations turned out that it was some organisation that had killed them and dumped them all it would seem was allowable and not considered illegal. Is there such a thing as illegally disposing of a dog's body? I also remember a job we did for PACERS involving a Dogz member who had a bunch of dead dogs in her house and shed and we were told there was no law against having the bodies and not disposing of them.

If they started actually doing some work in enforcement they would make more than enough off fines and what they save in management to pay wages. Perhaps what it needs is a private company to take up the policing process and allowing them to keep the fines they hand out on behalf of council - the voters wouldnt like this though and at the end of the day it really is about votes . Put laws in place to make the activists and everyone who wants some action feel that they are being heard and that new laws will help but do nothing about enforcement - keeps everyone happy and doesn't loose you any votes.