Steve

So is that 20 Chi's or 20 Great Danes ?

But the CCs dont prevent anyone other than their members from doing anything .Yes in some states CC members have some exemptions but that's caused by state laws where everyone who as an interest in breeding dog is supposed to have a voice. CCs have been impacted by the crap state laws as anyone and their members have been limited in their ability to freely make decisions on what is the best choices for them and their dogs as anyone. In some states and with a push for more to follow and for it to be the same in all states the craziest things are legislated for the keeping of breeding dogs which are actually detrimental to the health and welfare of dogs. Puppy farms have come about in this country over the last decade or so because 1. A gardener got upset with the CCs with good reason and really launched a huge marketing campaign for designer dogs which went up in price - so for the first time people in Australia saw the possibility of making money out of breeding dogs .20 years ago the idea that anyone could sell a first cross dog rather than it go out as free to good home or that anyone would actually deliberately mate 2 dogs of a different breed to get money was never on the table. It set up the demand and people gave them the supply. 2. These a lot of the story in the middle and loads of water under the bridge but now we have a situation where breeders - regardless of what they breed are being educated by people who know nothing about breeding dogs and if they do want to breed above average numbers for any purpose they are made to keep them as boarding animals are kept in factory type situations that cost stacks of money - so they have to breed more to cover the costs of the infa structure which isnt what is best for the species. Even small rural towns now have laws which prevent people from having a litter or two in their backyard. The more you discourage small breeders and make it so stressful and difficult for them to breed a few litters the more sales there are for someone who breeds lots of dogs and you cant breed lots of dogs by law unless you have a set up which is not good for the dogs which live in a BREEDING environment. All people who own and love dogs and all of those who breed them - regardless of what they breed need to stand and say what you are making us do is what is causing the problem so in that regard they need to come together but dont ever expect that they will agree with how they should be selectively bred,how to select dogs for their breeding program because they have different goals. The CCs do play a role in this and recent history shows them backing down and making their own members play the game animal rights dictate as if that somehow makes their members look better - and its marketed that way and they get exemptions Is it better for them ? yes to a point - it lets them say look at us we do everything the ratbags tell us we should do. Everyone who goes to buy a purebred registered pedigreed dog feels there is an implied warranty that their dogs will be healthier and their breeders do everything by the book to make a perfect pet. Is it better for their dogs - Not a chance. The more you try to over legislate this the worse it gets for the small breeder and the dogs in general especially when the legislation is being led and pushed by people who know nothing about living with and breeding breeding dogs. I dont think whether you breed purebreds or crossbreds is relevant in legislating for trying to stop people who keep their animals in substandard conditions

more likely to be a diet thing - add some omega 3's and some raw egg.

So back on topic - in regard to puppy farms - still its now 2015 and we all have a slightly or large difference of opinion on what is a puppy farm . But for a legislative and regulatory situation the reality is that breeders - regardless of what they breed, how often they breed, how many litters they have whether they are CC members or not have been dictated to and in recent history been educated on what is needed by people who have no idea of what it is that dogs in a breeding home or establishment need to be healthy, happy, clean and well socialised. On this level we do all need to work together but breeders have been belted into keeping their camp fires low and staying off the trail and their CCs haven't stood up for them but rather they have just been led along by the nose to the detriment of the dogs.

Moosmum - I agree there is no us and them but based on what your posts say you believe there is an us and them as much as they do. \ i dont see you or those who think like you as the opposition and while I have no control over the CCs the MDBA doesn't have - " That rule" . While ever you feel excluded by them and focus on that rule and how it might be changed to include you and those who want to have the type of freedom - within reason - you seek, in my opinion, you may as well try to walk on water . The CCs have evolved from simply keeping stud registries to a place where they have enjoyed a monopoly and power .They no longer have the monopoly and their numbers and power is falling. Focus on what you can do rather than what you cant do and convert that into doing what YOU think is best for dogs even if that excludes you form a group you dont agree with.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/leader/east/knox-pet-shop-lawyer-says-oscars-law-photo-of-puppy-with-no-water-was-taken-at-an-opportune-moment/story-fngnvlxu-1227171855770?nk=167d73c6304f5eb234c925989cd26057 A LAWYER representing a Knox pet shop says a photo showing one of its puppies with no water was taken while the water was being changed. The photo shows a puppy at Knox Pets Centre, located at Westfield Knox shopping centre, in a glass pen with no water. It comes as Knox City Council is investigating the pet shop for a number of alleged breaches of the Domestic Animals Act (1994). Debra Tranter, founder of animal welfare groupOscar’s Law, said she took the photo before demanding the store clean the pen and give the puppy water. The photo, which Ms Tranter posted on Oscar’s Law’s Facebook Page, then went viral with hundreds of comments slamming the pet shop. However, the shop’s lawyer Omar El-Hissi said the photo was taken while the water was being changed by staff. “These puppies are particularly naughty and constantly play with the water bowls and tip the water out. Fresh water was being brought to the pen at this time,” Mr El-Hissi said. “We note that our client works closely with vets and other professionals in the industry to ensure all animals in the store are well looked after and receive the proper care and attention.” Mr El-Hissi said Oscar’s Law was attempting to “elicit the wrong inferences” about his client’s treatment of animals by waiting for an opportune moment to take a photograph. Ms Tranter said she took the photo on December 18 while staff were “chatting at the back of the shop”. “I totally dispute that this photo was taken as they were about to clean the cages, I had to ask them to clean them,” she said. “To suggest pens are dirty and puppies do not have clean water because the puppies are ‘particularly naughty’ demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of these puppies’ behavioural and physical needs not to mention the duty of care they have towards the animals in their shop and the requirements in the Code of Practice.” She said six security guards arrived but she stayed until the shop gave the puppies water and cleaned the cage. “The problem with pet shops is they take the puppy away from their mother too early — the critical time is birth to 12 weeks,” she said. “Water and a clean pen are just basic needs of a puppy, but they need even more than that. “These puppies should still be with their mother. “A lot of the public are now starting to see beyond the pet shop window.” A spokeswoman for RSPCA Victoria said it had received a number of complaints about the Knox Pet Centre and had passed them into Knox City Council to investigate any breaches of the Victorian Code of Practice for the Operation of Pet Shops. The council’s city development director Angelo Kourambas said it was investigating the complaints but couldn’t comment further. Section 2.3 of the Code requires that all animals at a pet shop have access to fresh cool water at all times, and any breaches of the Code are an offence under the Domestic Animals Act (1994). Westfield was also contacted for comment.

Actually this is a really serious issue - if we are forced to put our member numbers in ads we cant have people clearly breaching the rules or being shonky with the member numbers and making us all look bad. If ever you see it again it is something that seriously needs to be bought to the CC attention - not good at all.

MOOSMUM Ive sent you a PM

Apple Cidar Vinegar is great especially as you can add it to the actual drinking water too. 1 capful per two litres.

Agree - you can't comply with the rules you like on one hand and not on the other. If they are quoting a legitimate membership number then as a member they must register the litter. Even an oops can be registered though they may be slapped over the wrist if not a good reason for the accident. If they are complying with the use of the membership number in ads they should also be in compliance with the requirement to register. If they are not legitimately using a dogs Nsw number (and using a number to try and 'legitimise' themselves, then dogs Nsw need to know that too as that is fraud. Report if. Then dogs Nsw can determine if any breaches of the regulations and or code of ethics have been made or if other action is required to protect their good name. Agreed - there may be a legitimate reason why these pups wont be registered and the CC rules now state that its a breach if you dont use your number but either way it is something that needs to be reported and looked at .It impacts badly on all registered breeders and the CCs .

Had their breeder not given them an almighty kick, things would be very different. And the worst part is that I would have just left it and gone oh well, lesson learned. But we still joke that she comes from a backyard breeder really. I have just been reading this post after a search on this forum. We bought what we thought was a pedigree dog who was registered. Shame on us really. We thought seeing as the dog was already 8 months old, not desexed and had an overshot jaw the price we paid reflected these things. (we paid $1300 12 months ago)" . We sourced this dog through a registered breeder who is also registered on this site. Going through her papers recently I realised that what we thought were registered pedigree papers was in fact a hand made pedigree with the name of the registered breeder on top of this. To say we are disappointed goes without saying. We really thought that people registered would be ethical if they are breeders. How naive of us. Go back tothe breeder and ask for the registered pedigree .Some register the pups and for numerous reasons keep the papers and only give a copy. They may be waiting for proof of desexing etc to give it to you. You cant assume that it isnt registered and if it isnt then its breach in most states. The state's CC will be able to tell you if the dog is actually registered. If its NSW any member can look it up for you too.

Yes they have to register the puppies and they have 6 months to do it . Dogs NSW is closed until next week so you still have a bit of a wait.

Over the years [now 8 years] As part of the Dog Owners Choice Awards I have had to try and contact most of the insurance companies to let them know of their nominations when their clients say wonderful things about them but collectively they are horrible to deal with just to get past the person on the phone who speaks with poor English. This year I rang one and when I said why I was ringing the operator said she was working for a competitor company to the one I was calling! Turns out all of the numbers for most of them go through one off shore company - what a bloody joke! The only one I would deal with if I was looking at pet insurance is Bow Wow Meow because even though they are all restricted in what they can do due to who they are underwritten by at least Bow Wow Meow respond and a heaps better to access and communicate with. I reckon if they are so hard to deal with when I want to tell them nice things which they can use in their promotions and marketing there is little chance of getting much joy of you had a problem or issue that may be not such a nice experience for them. It was such a pain that this year Best Pet Insurance Company of the Year category has been removed because I don't need the grief of trying to be nice to them.

No sure why you are worried as Normal average rectal temps for a dog is 38 but the range of normal without a problem are between 37.9 and 39.2 - No problem. If this were my dog I would not be concerned. http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/appendixes/reference_guides/normal_rectal_temperature_ranges.html

O.K. Whatever. Better start your own group

ive had one of my breeds for over 40 years and never ever in the first 20 years did I ever hear of one of the breed having to have a C section. Then all of a sudden one in two is needing a C section .Its taken me over a decade to say my bitches now dont need C section - I havent had one for about 9and a half years. Im not one bit ashamed to say for a period of time I worked with my vet and deliberately selected for bitches who could free whelp. If I sell a bitch for breeding the person taking it can be pretty confident that they ar starting a place where they dont have to watch the pain and drama that comes with a Csection - others may not see that as bettering the breed but I do. By the way in there were loads of champs too I just wouldnt look at a bitch for keeping no matter how good she looked if her Mum was no good at the whole reproduction process.

Really all depends on what you class breeding for the betterment of the breed.For me there is no point what ever in breeding champions or working dogs or any other dog if they cant reproduce without intervention. Part of my selection is good brood bitches.

That statement assumes we all have the same vision of what is success. There is now and always has been the potential for anyone to breed an animal which is not normally eligible for registration with the KC if you can justify why you think it would benefit a breed and have the board agree it would do no harm.

No one is trying to eliminate anything - its just not what they do.

Not sure you call 10 Maremma babies and 6 Beagle babies all trying to rip the chrissy presents apart festive - but they sure are cute. That sounds like my dream Christmas, who are you kidding! I hope there's some treats under the tree for your gang! :) Yes if they last that long

Not sure you call 10 Maremma babies and 6 Beagle babies all trying to rip the chrissy presents apart festive - but they sure are cute.

Chalk and Cheese

Two litters born the same day just in time to be ready to play with the Grandkids for Christmas Note the beagle needs to eat the decorations whilst the Maremma sits quietly

what is your time frame I can do beagles and Maremma but Im time poor for the next few days.

All those reasons. And thats why I believe allowing K.C members to breed dogs that will be in-eligible for registration would would work. An all encompassing Org. Would not be needed. The general public would have a K.C influence, and a stake in understanding the realities and responsibilities of breeding. An understanding that joe average could support. And the minute you do that everyone who is now a member because they only want to be seen to be associated with purebred dogs leave. Purebred registered breeders have been promoted as superior , their dogs have been promoted as superior - the management, the group the membership dont want to educate or support those who they believe are not doing the right thing. Hell they dont even like some of the breeders who do breed registered purebred dogs and would like to see them chucked out. Anyone can breed dogs and most can give some justification as why they do what they do but being able to breed predictable, healthy well temperamented dogs capable of breeding predictable, healthy well temperamented dogs generation after generation takes a philosophy and belief system which takes on the job of doing so as an honour, a life's work almost like a religion as well as skills, knowledge experience and education. These breeders use the registry and the pedigree system to profile their pedigrees, gain knowledge of other dogs and the health and temperament in their ancestry they put everything they have into selecting and managing their dogs for optimum health for generations to come. When this is the general aim of purebred dog registries/KCs why on earth would they say its O.K. for their members to be doing exactly the opposite and breed dogs which are ineligible for registration?