Red Fox

That's a really good point Erny. Assuming that the dog is NOT stressed by this the owner certainly would be. And wouldn't the dog pick up on this? I'm presuming that the study that Aidan (and Corvus) refered to would have been conducted by people who did not have an emotion attachment to the dogs?? Would this not affect the outcome??

Yes - it makes sense, SK. I think we're both on the same page there. Something might be "easier" for one of the combination (ie handler or dog) but not necessarily the best for both handler AND dog. Exactly Okay, so lets say that they are not stressed. What good is a dog who "appears to have shut down" and how much can you really teach him in that state? Finally, I think we agree on something

Agree - although all things being equal, if there were another method/tool which the owner could use equally as well and which could produce less stress in that dog and have the dog gain the same, then that's what I'd go for. So the more important factor IMO would be about finding that tool/method. I think you'd agree with this anyway, Cosmolo. I believe I understand where you were coming from with the above. I agree with you Erny. As a qualified trainer if you think that a certain method or piece of equipment will work better for a certian type of dog, or certain type of owner then without a doubt that is what you should recommend I do have an issue however, when someone is told to use a certain tool which may be 'easier' but not necessarily 'better' for that dog/owner combination. Does that make sense? Sure, sometimes. My beagle can work better than dogs of some of those breeds, breed alone means nothing unless you use methods that are right for the individual dog. Yeah but that's only cos you have a super beagle Huski Hehe, who says you can't train a beagle in drive?

So what you're trying to say is the dogs that are NOT good candidates for the head collar and DO become stressed to the point of self mutilation don't count? I didn't discount any dogs at all and if after reading this you have any doubts I'd be interested in how you came to that conclusion? I said that the results of the study do not apply to the entire population of dogs. There are "outliers" in any population. Just because this study says that dogs wearing head collars don't demonstrate physiological signs of stress doesn't mean that there won't be dogs in the entire population of dogs in the world who aren't stressed. What the study makes clear is that pawing at a head collar, looking down, or not looking at the handler as much are not always signs of stress. For the representative sample of dogs in the study wearing Gentle Leaders those behaviours were not signs of stress according to the physiological measures taken. This point is very important. How I came to the conclusion that you were discounting a certain group of dogs? Or how I came to the conclusion the a halti is not only stressful for the dog but not the best way of teaching llw? Okay, well you stated that: "it does clearly demonstrate that just because a dog paws at his nose and puts his head down and not look at the owner does not indicate that the dog is stressed" But then went on to say: "but I would think that if a dog is scratching to the point of mutilation then that particular dog is not a candidate for the head collar" and "the results of the study do not apply to the entire population of dogs" and "Just because this study says that dogs wearing head collars don't demonstrate physiological signs of stress doesn't mean that there won't be dogs in the entire population of dogs in the world who aren't stressed." So you are firstly saying that the study clearly demonstrates that the dogs are not stressed, but then contradicting it by saying that if a dog is stressed then they are not a good candidate for the head collar anyway Thats where I got lost anyway... If you are enquiring as to the latter - personal experience. I have seen my OWN dog in a head collar, lunging at the end of the leash and tearing at his face, I have seen other dogs plodding along with no joy in their step or being dragged around by their owners because they have all but shut down. Sorry but saying that these dogs are not stressed doesn't wash with me. I've also had an instructor yell in my face and tell me that not only are prong collars cruel and illegal but that it would be IMPOSSIBLE to teach my dog to walk on a loose leash without a head collar, and certainly not with a prong. Well guess what? I now have a dog who walks perfectly on a flat collar - and I didn't use a head collar to train it

So what you're trying to say is the dogs that are NOT good candidates for the head collar and DO become stressed to the point of self mutilation don't count?

Are there any studies proving that they are NOT dangerous?

I dont know Aidan... how can a dog having his neck contantly pulled to one side be any good for him? I can think of quite a few doggy chiro's who would beg to differ with you...

Aidan............don't forget to answer this question, we are all patientely waiting. This is the scene: One of your 45kilo female customers that you have advised to use a harness on a 42kilo dog that's just tipped over the aggression threshhold and wants to take someones head off. The dog is pulling the owner towards a 10 year old child backed up against a fence petrified that the dog is about to kill him. The owner can't physically hold the dog back and the kid is frozen in fear................what are you going to do to stop an attack in that situation when the dog is un-muzzled and wearing a harness Yeah but it's all relevent isn't it? Personally I dont think that Aidan would put someone in that situation. BUT that's not to say that someone reading an internet forum who has an agressive dog that pulls on the leash and no idea about what they are doing wont think it's a good idea Swap BB's scene for one where you have a large exuberant, super friendly dog who goes ballistic with excitement on seeing other dogs (or even people) and happens to be wearing a head collar. (Which has likely been recommended to them by a friend, not a qualified trainer). What happens when that dog bursts over his threshold and launches himself into a great big play bow before his in-experienced owner can do anything about it? What happens to that dogs neck?! And even if the owner could recognised the signs of the dog approaching his threshold (which can be a matter of a split second), how would you snap the dog out of it when you have no means of correction? The problem is not so much experienced trainers handing out a tool which they believe will benefit their particular client, but the fact that some of these tools are so widely accessable to the general public WITHOUT the knowledge of how to use them. You wouldn't put a prong collar in the hands of an in-experienced owner either, but at least you can't buy them off the supermarket shelf! Still happens Particularly when you mention correction collars at the wrong obedience club

But sometimes the 'wrong' dog can teach you a hell of a lot more about training than the 'right' one If they love their dog and are committed to fixing the problem it shouldn't be an issue. However, I completely understand that some people get to the point of either 'fix it now or PTS' and then yes, you can only work with what's in front of you and do your best This concerns me too. If the dog has reached that point on a head collar then how do you stop it, how do you break through? A strong dog is either going to break free or break it's neck and that's a scary thought.

Yep, another Chilly Coat fan here

Because the dog understands the command but it chosing not to follow it. You are reminding the dog that he needs to comply with a known command. I see the correction as a reminder of where the dogs attention should be -not a punishment. If I have a prong collar on my dog I only need to use tiny little pops to bring his attention back to me when needed. I NEVER yank on the collar, I dont need to. And certainly never cause him any pain! Perhaps this is different from owner to owner, dog to dog, but it's certianly not 'yank and crank' punishment here. Okay, fair enough. They are not something that is widely available, but you certainly can buy them in most states if you know where to look. I think there's good reason for that though -being able to buy any type of correction device of the shelf without the proper knowledge of how to use it is a bad idea. At least prong collars are highly regulated in that way. You can't say the same for some of the other 'tools', check chains for example You wouldn't just 'jump in with a correction' though Yep, I agree and that question wasn't really aimed at you in particular. Though I'm not sure what not wanting precise heel work has to do with using head collar though? Wouldn't you teach llw with a different command, rather than a different tool? (Sorry if I have misinterperated what you were trying to say).

Well that's the ideal. You dont exactly put a correction collar on a dog and yank on it everytime the dog does something wrong! You first teach the command and then once the dog is solid you can begin to introduce the correction. Exactly. You are not 'teaching' the dog through corrections alone, it's part of a whole. If you're doing it right then idealy your praise and re-enforcement should out-weigh the corrections big time. Because a prong collar can be a very useful training tool when used correctly And as far as I'm aware they are legal in all states apart from Victoria. (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on that though) Every one of these threads seems to turn into a slinging match between prongs and haltis when the point of the whole thing should be to discuss llw and how it can be trained. It shouldn't be about 'this tool is bad' or 'that method is crap'. Seriously, come on. Bagging someone elses method or tool doesn't help here at all. Another thing I dont understand - and this is a genuine question, I'm not having a dig - but why would a dog who was fully obedience trained and reliable off leash need to wear a head collar?

Ooops, double post

Aidan, I'm only going off my own experiences with head collars, nothing to do with what I've read or heard on this forum I couldn't count the amount of times people have said to me "Oh yeah, the halti is great! My dog calms right down as soon as I put it on, but he goes stupid again when I take it off". Or the amount of dogs I saw plodding along at obedience with their heads down and their haltis on. To me that says it's not changing the behaviour, just managing it. I guess if people were shown the correct method then it wouldn't be such a problem but I think too many people sing the praises of head collars without looking at the bigger picture I see plenty of dogs wearing them out on their walk every day too. Most of these dogs look happy and I'm sure that their owners are greatful for a tool that allows them to safely walk their dogs. That's not a bad thing at all. But I still think there are better and more effective ways to train a llw than haltis or harnesses and personally I wouldn't use a head collar on my dog ;)

If you can get periods of not pulling on a correction collar in order to deliver well timed corrections then yes, but quite often this isn't the case, owners can't get the loose lead bursts without professional instruction. Yes, I do agree that an owner who is having difficulty should always seek instruction from a professional trainer and learn how to give a proper well timed correction to their dog before even attempting to use a correction collar at home. I would never tell someone to jump in and use a correction collar without knowing exactly what they were doing first - the same goes for any training tool though. And yep, you need to be able to get loose leash bursts to be able to teach llw - but that's not by any means impossible. Even with a dog that pulls continuously you always have that breif period between the dog hitting the end of the leash, you changing direction (ie doing a quick 180 turn) and the dog catching up again before he surges ahead. Me too! But I think that if that is what is happening then your training has not been done correctly and you need to go back to basics again Yep, I agree

Yes, but a prong collar (or a check chain, martingale etc) has the advantage of being able to give the dog a quick correction only when needed, ie you give the dog a command and he either complies and is rewarded or does not comply and is corrected. It's more precise IMO. Unlike a head collar that works by acting as a constant aversive when it's on and manages the behaviour that way.. I've seen plenty of dogs that will walk perfectly on a halti but as soon as it's taken off they are right back to square one again. I'm sure that you could train llw with practically any tool if you are using the right method but wouldn't a correction collar provide a much clearer picture to the dog of what you are asking for? And therefore learning would be much faster?

This one? http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=194164 There have been a few but this is the most recent

Kei does the burp after dinner too The two things that crack me up without fail? Every night before dinner I say to Kei "Go to your bowl" He flies over to the bowl stand at lightening speed, plonks his butt on the ground and does a big lick of his lips - not a little tongue flick but a MASSIVE lick of his chops as if to say OMG! DINNER'S COMMING!! The other one is the 'Kidney Bean Dance' where he is so excited that he wags his whole body right around and dances along in a kidney bean shape

I didn't know there were different brands. I got them from a place that puts them in small packs so they don't have any ingredients on them, they are just in plastic. um, yeah I guess maybe he did get a few extra calories that needed to be worked off! He's a 7 month old GSP so not small but maybe it was a bit like giving him some red cordial Perhaps try giving them in the morning then so he's got all day to work it off. There are quite a few different brands, just give the store that you bought them from a call and ask what brand they are then you can look the ingredients up on the net. We get the Dog Pro brand (I think that's what it's called) which is preservative free but I think some of the others do have it so might be worth investigating. Or perhaps the energy burst was him just showing you how excited he was about his new biccies

I guess it depends on what brand of 2x4's you are using (there are a few) what the ingredients are, if there are any colours or preservatives and if there is anything in the biscuits that your dog is not used to that he might react to. How big is your dog? 2 biscuits would have a fair amount of energy in them

Have you checked out the main breed page here? http://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/commun...ter-terrier.asp Lots of basic info there and links to breeders Manchester Terrier? http://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/commun...ter-terrier.asp or perhaps a cross breed?

It's as if he's saying "Hey! What are YOU looking at?!" Then "Fine, take the bloody picture and get it over with" Lucky he still has his fluffy tail. He must look a little bald compared to Emmy though.

Hi, can I ask why? If you're not a registered breeder, then why would you need to have a dog that is undesexed? What is the difference for a pound/rescue dog being desexed before it goes home with new owner (which I agree with) and the purebred pet that is purchased from a registered breeder - surely that pup should also be desexed (when old enough) as well. There are just as many purebreeds in the pounds and shelters as crossbreeds. I choose to keep my male entire because I see no medical benefit in desexing him. Why should I be forced to desex him? Agreed. Not everyone agrees that desexing is always in the best interests of their dog. The issue here is more to do with unregistered breeding than it is to do with keeping entire animals. Upping the rego fees to rediculously high amounts will encourage two things - breeding to recover money and un-registered dogs. Both already huge problems in society so why would you want to increase them? Crack down on the BYB's. If there were huge fines for this then people would be more likely to desex their pets to avoid any 'accidents' and resulting fines and responsible owners would have nothing to worry about. Mandatory desexing of shelter/pound animals is about breaking the cycle and is highly warranted in that case, but mandatory desexing of ALL animals regardless of who owns them or where they came from is a violation of rights IMO.

There was a write up on one in the Sunday Mail a few months back. It was a really upmarket pet resort but I can't remember for the life of me what it was called I think there was a thread about it though..

Just a question for those that spray this around your house, how much do you dilute it first? I got my 5L of lavender fragranced OdourGo Penetrator Plus last week and diluted it one third concerntrate to 2 parts water as per the instruction but it was way too strong! I poured half of it out and refilled with water so that it was 5 parts water to one part concerntrate and it was still too much for me Am I making it up too strong? It might get rid of the odour but it's given me a killer headache every time I've tried to use it :p