Red Fox

Ewwwwww If you didn't want to compost another option is one of those doggy diposal systems. It's just like a mini sewerage tank, you put the poop in there and then pour in some kind of decomposer liquid every so often which breaks it down. The ones that I have seen have holes in the bottom to that the liquid just slowly drains into the surrounding soil and you never have to empty it.

Have you tried a prong collar? They work by 'pinching' the skin around the dogs neck as opposed to a check chain that works by snapping against the muscles in a dogs neck (and can be pretty damaging in a dog with lots of muscle that simply can't feel a light correction). You only need a tiny correction with the prong and used properly they are very safe. A good trainer would be able to show you how to use one correctly

Thats interesting Nekbet, I was unaware that you could use an injection to prevent a bitch coming into heat. So really, if you were to look at it that way then the issue of the bitch coming into season and it's hassles would be quite irrelevent! Could you elaborate on this injection please? Or perhaps a link to more info? Going slightly OT here but I have always been told that females not only mature faster but are easier to train (however I wouldn't have a clue if that's actually true or not). Though if it is I would expect that while males may have the advantage of size, that the girls have the advantage of brains. Though I'm not entirely convinced that size always equates to power? I would have thought that a smaller female Malinois could and would hit just as hard as a large male GSD... Though perhaps in security work the size is more of a deterent and therefore an advantage?

Thank you for the info BB. That does make a lot of sense So if you did decide to use a female for this line of work, but the dog turned out to be unsuitable for breeding for whatever reason (but was still a good worker) would you keep the dog entire (as to preserve her character, drives, stability, etc) or would you then desex her to avoid the hassles associated with seasons? Also, what would happen for instance if the bitch developed pyo and had to be desexed for health reasons? Could you continue to compete with her or use for security work or would she then become unsuitable?

hmmm...you do know a lot about this robbery... you don't happen to be the proud owner of a 3.5 year old TV that tilts to the left do you???? My dogs are very cute so the cuddle theory does hold water. My cousin said that maybe they didn't realise I had dogs until they were in teh house. I find that highly unlikely! Lucy sounds so ferocious that she has scared off the odd delivery man even though she is behind the security grill. Nah, I got a shoddy 8 year old one that weighs a ton Seriously it's like 60 kilos! If I did steal your's I'd have nowhere to put it since I wouldn't be able to lift mine off the shelf :rolleyes: Again, thank God the dogs are okay. Perhaps they had been scoping out your house for a while and knew the size of the dogs then? I have to say that I'd be hesitant to enter a house with such a ferocious little bark going on unless I had seen what was behind that door first! eta, perhaps get yourself some very good locks and a very loud alarm. I really do hope they wont come back. Though I'm sure your neighbours will be on full alert now too.

Hmmm... well if I was going to rob a house I'd want to keep the dogs quiet and have everything appear as normal to the neighbours. If the dogs went straight to your room then that would be the easiest place to shut them and then open the door before they left. And just speculating here - I didn't rob your house! Or perhaps they were just dog lovers and picked your house so that they could get cuddles while they stole your TV... You didn't happen to find a trail of dog treats leading out the back door did you? :rolleyes: But God, I would be the same as you. Bugger the TV, the dogs are fine! ETA, sorry to laugh Megan. I dont think it's funny that you got robbed at all It is more like tears of relief that the robbers actually thought about the dogs!

Yep, what bedazzledx2 said. Sashas blend is great stuff HOwever if your dog doesn't like 'fishy' things then go for Joint Guard instead (SB stinks to high heaven but most dogs love it). Personally I tend to steer away from anything labelled as 'pet mince' as it's often full of additives (particularly the stuff you get from the supermarket). You can get fresh minced chicken carcus from Leonards or your local butcher, some butchers will even do up a special 'pet' mix with whatever you like in it. Roo meat/bones is great if you can get it fresh too! Nice and lean

Sorry, that's terrible that you got robbed but what a relief! I'd rather see the TV gone and the back gate closed with dogs safe inside anyday! I wonder if they locked the dogs in your room to keep them quiet while they robbed the house and that's why the neighbours heard nothing?

What kind of pup mince were you feeding? If it was just ground chicken carcus (with the bone included) then apart from perhaps upping her diet to a premium dry as opposed to a cheap one what you were feeding doesn't sound all that bad. Raw meaty bones and pet mince (ground carcus) are actually quite good for dogs, the bone contains calcium and other essential nutrients as does the meat. Get your hands on some of the Ian Billinhurst books if you are interested in learning a bit more about that. If you'd like to odd omega oil to your girls food you can try either flaxseed oil, fish oil (capsules from the chemist) or an omega pet oil (we use the Melrose brand Omega Pet Oil) and just mix it in with her meals ETA, forgot to ask - are you adding any joint supplements to her diet? Such as Joint Guard or Sashas Blend? If not you might like to consider that also.

I add about a desertspoon to food (for a large dog), he doesn't tend to drink a lot so not much point in putting it in his water bowl.

Sorry but that is the funniest piece of crap that I have ever heard What an idiot! Jeez Bec, are you sure he got a dog?? Sorry you couldn't get through this time but there will be someone else somewhere down the track that is willing to listen. And THAT is why you bother

My boy came to me on Nutrience and if I was going ever to use dry again I would probably go back to it (or perhaps Royal Canin as an alternative). It's a great food though I can't really elaborate on the Prey model diet (I feed a raw/barf style diet to my dog) but if she enjoys her meat/bones it may be something to look into. Just a thought, if you are already feeding her plenty of meat/bones then perhaps she is just not hungry enough to eat the dry? However dry food is pretty bland in comparison to meat too!

If you want to find something she likes perhaps you could try ordering a few sample packs of different brands? As others already have said I would be wary of adding calcium powder to her food unless you are sure that she has a calcium deficiency. You can improve the palitability of dry food by mixing in a small amount of natural yogurt, sardines, eggs or raw mince with the food depending on what she likes. Otherwise if she is keen on raw meaty bones then perhaps you could look into a barf or prey diet as an alternative to dry. I've never fed Science diet to my dog but I did (on vets advice) try it for my cat. He wouldn't have a bar of it! We changed to Nutrience and haven't had a problem since. Not only does he love it but his health has improved dramatically

Agreed I'd be very interested in learning more about this too.

No it's not. The reason I started the thread was so that people could discuss their oppinion regarding desexing of female dogs - Do they agree with it, at what age do they think is appropriate (if at all) and does it differ for performance dogs involved in certain sports? To a degree I think that has been achieved. There have been oppinions from working line enthusiasts (Schutzhund, working sheep dogs, racing enthusiasts (greyhounds) and also oppinions from those involved in ANKC obedience, agility, fly ball and other sports. Can I say that I have been surprised by the difference in oppinion between these people? Nope! Not at all. Did anyone really expect them to be the same? Different needs for different owners. And that is what this thread is about That might be the situation in BB's case- but she's saying that she doesn't think anyone should work or trial a desexed dog at all, not just in her situation where there are so few good quality bitches... And I wonder if there might be more good quality bitches if people were encouraged to participate with desexed dogs, so even people who don't intend to breed can get involved, the market for pups increases, and those people might change their minds later and keep their next dog entire. Keeping a working test/sport exclusive to breeders doesn't help to improve the working population of a breed. The other problem with her argument is that she seems to think the best way to breed good trialling dogs is from good trialling dogs, which it isn't. It's from producers of good dogs. So yes, you need to work your dogs to know about their working traits first, but then you need to assess not just their ability, but that of as many of their relatives as possible, and how those dogs reproduce and with which other lines do they best reproduce, before you decide to breed. I got the impression that BB was referring to working dogs within their breed and sport only. And as someone who is interested in one day participating in that sport I have found this discussion to be very interesting. I do think it is worthwhile to hear why BB feels that desexing is inappropriate in schutzhund/working line dogs as it is a valid argument in the case of that particular sport. I also think it is worthwhile hearing why others disagree with this argument when it comes to their own sport.

The difference might be in the demand for performance pups in that breed. If the demand isn't there, not as many people will be inspired to breed. It is up to breeders to inspire interest within their breed, and make breeder's terms as attractive as they need to be for that particular breed. Saying that pet owners shouldn't desex, 'just in case' the dog needs to be bred from is not taking into account the needs of those owners, and won't necessarily improve the breed. But wasn't that the argument? That there were not enough females of proven working ability to breed from and therefore it would make sense to keep a female entire if she is a good worker? Sorry, I may have my wires crossed here but early in the discussion it was mentioned several times that it is not recommended to desex a performance dog at an early age (I think 14 months was the minimum age suggested?). So if someone was serious about competing, bought a good quality puppy and did not plan on desexing before say 18 months, would they not already have a very good idea of the dogs working ability by the time the dog reached the required age for desexing anyway? Then if the dog did turn out to be the whole package (conformation, working ability, health, etc.) they could then go about deciding on whether their particular dog had something to contribute to the improvement of their breed? eta, not trying to start an argument on this, just looking at it from a different perspective.

I dunno have you had a gander at some of them.....sheesh But what of those (ANKC breeders) who go about breeding dogs for colour with no regard to conformation? (hmmmm... "blue english staffies" spring to mind there). But you can't tar all breeders with the same brush can you? I'm sure there are some very shonky working line breeders out there but surely there are also some very good ones too?...

Okay, well there have been many threads on why desexed/limited registered dog should not be shown (ie a seperate group created for them). The argument being that if the dog cannot be bred from then showing is a waste of time. Those who said they would like to do it for pleasure, as a social outlet, or to learn the requirements of showing were slammed and told to learn by handling someone elses dog or to purchase a male puppy to show with as it was easier to find a good show quality male puppy for the beginner than a female. *(sorry I'm not sure how to find the thread on this topic so that may have not been the exact wording, but you get the general idea) So based on that why is BB's argument that a top quality working line dog should not be desexed and should instead be used to improve the breed, any less valid? For instance, if a well established and successful ANKC registered breeder was planning a litter from highly desired lines it would be my guess that they would already have a very long waiting list before the mating had even taken place. Would they not then strive to place any show quality pups that they could not keep for themselves in show homes and on breeders terms? What would make a top quality working line breeder any different? I dont think that anyone is advocating placing pups into any old home and expecting that the owners keep them entire 'just in case' Nor that a dog should be bred from solely based on it's working ability. Any person with half a brain would look at the dog as a whole before deciding to breed with it. Just as a good (read ethical) show line breeder would not breed a dog based simple on looks or colour alone I doubt that a good working line breeder would breed a dog based solely on it's working ability??

A dog of that quality would only go to someone who would not desex. Whats the point of breeding top dogs if they arent going to be tested and bred from to improve the breed if suitable. Correct Okay, thank you. BB- Going slightly OT here but can you elaborate on your sport a little and why you say that it is hard to find good working females? Are males just more suitable or does it come down to the inconvenience of having an entire female (seasons, time out for breeding, etc) Appologies if that's a silly question but I am genuinely curious.

Agreed. But what of those who want a serious working dog but have no interest or desire to breed? Would you still keep the dog entire? Or would a dog of that quality only go out on breeders terms -ie, if the dog does turn out to be highly succesful then the breeder would expect a litter from her?

While I'm all for educating people I often feel bad to get in the face of someone who has already bought the dog. It's all well and good to lecture on cross breeds and puppy farms and the like to someone considering one of these dogs, but a bit late to tell them that when they already have it. I've no issue with educating them gently - pointing out that their dog is infact a cross as it must have ANKC papers to be registered as a purebred, or saying you should watch this or that because it can be a problem in (insert dog breeds here) and if the parents weren't health tested you need to be aware. But I'm sure that they would feel pretty devasted to hear that their pups parents are suffering in a puppy mill or that their puppy will likely be blind by the age of 3 because of health problems. It's too late for that... I remember meeting a man with a tiny black pup last year at our local skate park. I asked him what breed and he proudly said "She's a 12 week old purebred Lab". There was no way this pup was a purebred Lab (unless she was a very bad example of one) but there was no way I was going to tell him this. He was so in love with his little pup that it really didn't matter. If she was not a Lab well he would find that out soon enough. Why ruin someone elses happiness? However if I knew of someone who was considering buying the latest designer mutt I would go hell for leather as to why they most certainly should not! I've no issue telling people where pet shop puppies come from or why I would never buy a BYB dog/puppy from the paper/internet etc. But I do have a problem with telling someone that their little bundle of joy (who was bought without knowing any better) is inferior.

Me too But then not everyone would make the effort to take their dog to the vet. If the owner didn't care he could have dumped/shot/otherwise disposed of the dog. At least he had the decency to take it to the vets where it will be either cared for or humanely PTS. Still a sad situation for all.

The 'registered' 3 yearly vacc is different from the annual vacc given 'off label' at 3 yearly intervals. Though it's debatable whether it's more effective or not. There have been a few threads on this if you do a search. I believe that Stormy knows a bit about the two and posted some info on it a while back. Personally I would titre test if you're worried. Is there a high incidence of parvo in your area?

Okay thanks I'll keep an eye out there too.

Well yes and no.. perhaps that is true for a serious working dog, particularly if it's from very sought after lines and the owner has some experience in breeding. But then not everyone is that serious, nor willing to go down that path. For some it's a lifestyle and for others it's a hobby. Plus not every dog will be suitable to breed from either - for example an agility champion that happens to be of mixed breed ;) However I can certainly understand where you are coming from.