Cosmolo

But is it better to have a broad degree- or a specific training and behaviour qualification?

Poor boy- fingers crossed for you and him Kelpie i :D

Yes kelpie i- i totally agree, particularly given some of the changes to the course and the way grading occurs (which i understand is difficult/ impossible to change because of the way the government recognises adult learning courses) Just goes to show that personal word of mouth (particularly from someone who has experienced similar problems) will always be the best way to find a quality dog trainer/ behaviourist. Experience + Qualifications + People skills= a good start! Its very difficult for the average dog owner to understand the way the industry works and how to select a good trainer if they have no word of mouth from friends or family. I also know that kick backs are involved with some vets referring to trainers/ behaviourists etc for a % $$ so simply asking a vet will not always give an impartial opionion!!

Totally understand that you wouldn't want to leave chelsea for longer when she is that stressed- and i would never suggest that you do, but imcomplete flooding and sensitisation sounds more and more likely. Have you seen a behaviourist with her?

And she didn't eat or drink the whole time? Could have been imcomplete flooding throughout the stay if she was coming into contact- fear rising and then being removed/ going to backyard etc. I ask about this because i know that this is what had happened to Georgie in her previous home. Its really easy to do without realising.

Not necesarily Midol- would depend on the level of fear and specific triggers for fear. What period of time has ILTBY's Dad looked after her? Days/ weeks?

Its hard when you deal with a dog with extreme fears- i have lots of people who say they've had a dog like Georgie who was just 'a bit timid'- but the reality is there are very few dogs like her, Haven's dog and perhaps Chelsea. A bit timid is not the same From what you've said though- i do think you may be incomplete flooding her without realising it. Does/ have Midol and Shmoo stayed at the home for longer periods at a time than your Dad?

I'd be unlikely to push her away if she retreats to you when she is frightened. We had to teach Georgie to do this (come to us) rather than panic bolt- and i know which one i'd prefer.

My brain is not working well in this heat so i will try to explain what i mean with an example- Dog is in room with Dad. Dad stands or moves and dog becomes frightened. Fear is at a high enough level that dog is not coping and showing stress. Behaviour remains the same or increases within a minute or two. Dog is then removed or removes herself from situation. Because the level of fear did not reduce- even in part, sensitisation may occur causing the dog to be the same or worse next time. Flooding usually involves the presenting stimuli that is too intense to counter condition at that point- with dogs that have extreme fear, the stimuli may not be deliberately set at that level but be too high to counter condition/ desensitise so flooding has commenced without that being your intention. The principle then still remains that if you remove the dog before the fear subsides, sensitisation will still occur.

I think you can categorise most trainers nto a few different groups- Veterinary Behaviourists- have the ability to dispense medication in line with behavioural diagnosis and advice. Those that i have met always use medication in line with other strategies which are based on positive reinforcement only. Generally at least double the price of qualified trainers Qualified Dog Trainer/ Behaviour Specialist- Either hold a DELTA qualification or NDTF qualification, the main difference being that generally DELTA trainers use positive reinforcement techniques and NDTF trainers use techniques from all areas. Some DELTA trainers always refer to a veterinary behaviourist for aggression and anxiety issues. These are the two categories that i think are important for people to understand. Then we have- Franchise qualified trainers- those who have done a course through the franchise and now promote as qualified dog trainers. Tend to be very expensive but offer guarantees Volunteer Obedience instructors- through clubs etc, some do private lessons. If someone in another state wishes to seek assistance, i generally reccommend they seek an NDTF qualified trainer/ behaviourist as i prefer someone open to all strategies, with the exception of Perth/ WA because i know no one who is suitably qualified and experienced to teach owners about corrections- hence i recommend a positive behavioural trainer who i know. It is an unregulated industry and is likely to remain so, given that the only thing two trainers can agree on is what the third one is doing wrong!! ETA- word of mouth is very important- most of our clients come from word of mouth and our website (which has a long page of testimonials)

Sorry i missed that bit- understand you wouldn't want to do it. Just thought hearing about a similar dog may give you some hope Just a word of caution and something to consider though. Sometimes with extreme fears, you may be flooding without realising it and thus imcomplete flooding which will further sensitise her. Given that its been 2 years and she is no better with your dad, this may be a possibility.

She sounds like Georgie- one of our dogs. Georgie's fear was so extreme that we had no choice but to flood her- otherwise she never would have chosen to interact with us, food or no food. She would have starved rather than approach OH. She still wouldn't eat in the presence of my OH (even at the other end of the house) for 6 months. I am definitely NOT recommending that you flood her as you must know what you're doing and when not done correctly, it will make it worse. I am simply giving an example of another dog with extreme fear (not aggression) and what worked for her. Georgie is still fearful of those who she has never met but no longer panics, paces, bolts or shakes- people who she meets even infrequently she is okay with and people that she sees semi regularly she is becoming excellent with- friendly, approached for pats, cuddles etc. She can now go for walks in most places without too much of a problem- when we started if she became scared, she would remain so for hours, despite the fact that the stimulus was gone. For instance walking down the street and a gate shut quickly- that was it for the next 2-3 hours. What is Chelsea's recovery tme like once she gets frightened by noise or object? We had to flood her with very basic things to start with- such as my OH- we didn't have a choice because she and he had to live together and she would not come anywhere near him by choice to start with, i thought she was going to go through a window at the other end of the house to get away from him- even though he would be simply sitting on the couch or get up to get a drink etc. When we flooded her with strangers- she was not forced to interact with them, but over time she has chosen to. Food lures did not work at all for probably the first year but food can be used now in certain situations and she will take it from strangers or seek them out for food. I wouldn't run her when she starts to get worried- she must be taught to turn to you for safety rather than run.

If choice is defined as the dog processing information and making a decision then no i don't believe the dog has a choice- when drive kicks in, the dog doesn't think about it.

How awful-he was so young. What a stunning looking boy :rolleyes:

I'm so sorry Trisven! ;) How are the kids?

I have one dog who never looks that enthusiastic when she is doing obedience- she is precise, her obedience is excellent and she lights up for her reward but during the actual exercises, she doesn't do the prance/ wagging tail look. We don't trial now but when we did, it was commented on. I don't think its always a bad thing- she clearly has a different style to my young boy who looks like a grand prix dressage horse when he's heeling! Part of the problem is that some of the obedience we do is boring- long drop stays while working with clients dogs etc. She does light up for a tug toy and this is what we normally use but we tried something dfferent today that worked really well. Cosmo loves targetting and it instantly gets her excited and bouncy so we broke up her training today with targetting and the usual ' don't want to work for food' attitude was gone. She did some great work AND looked like she was loving it. What about letting Barkly off lead and doing some targetting straight away? With some dogs i find the more you deny them environmental rewards, the more they want them and it can be problematic because you can't always control the rewards while still having the dog out and about. I don't think you need to deny a dog from playing with dogs/ greeting people etc to get reliability and compliance- you may need to tweak your training of course but i think you can do this while still allowing the dog to have fun away from you. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

I'm sure some of the clicker trainers will have ideas for you on how to get the dog used to the clicker. But my advise would be to just use a verbal marker in the same way you would use a clicker.

I would contact Four Paws K9 training to see what they have available in that area

Hot spots?

But cal- i have heard many APBT owners and enthusiasts say that the AST is the same dog different name? So is it really another breed in reality?

I don't think breaking the law is the way to do it- nor do i think its fair on the dogs. And i'm entitled to that opinion just as you are yours. I understand your passion, i don't agree with BSl either- but choosing to condem a dog to a life as a restricted dog, or flying under the radar until the dog is seized/ euthed is not something i agree with. Have a nice sleep : )

Don't know what makes you think i don't know what its like to be passionate about something I am passionate about not getting a dog thats bound to end up seized and dead because i broke the law instead of looking a bit harder for a breeder who bred the qualities i wanted in a dog. Not all registered breeders show? So they are not all breeding for conformation in the ring. And what makes you think you'll get the qualities you want in a dog from a BYB of APBT's? How do you 'know what you're getting' with a BYB pit? Nobody dies if i choose to cheer a certain football team- the same cannot be said for me choosing to own an APBT in many states.

But if there are some lines of Am staffs that have the desired qualities, why not choose them vs a dog who will have to live with everything that comes with a RB tag and possible persecution/ seizure and euthanasia? They're not the only breed with the qualities you mention. I don't think most people who choose to own a pit do it thinking thats the only way to get those qualities either-most people don't think about those things. I have met some lovely APBT's- but also met some papered am staffs who were extremely similar in temp and behaviour.

Genuine question- why not switch to an am staff? Who have the same qualities?

Please seek professional help as soon as possible! Your pup may still be in their critical period and its vital that you know how to deal with your pups responses now. Don't wait until the dog is older- if you don't do anything now its highly likely that the problem will remain for the dogs life- he will not grow out of it.