Erny

If you want to continue the "eat first" regime (no harm in it) ..... make it easier on yourselves and simply have a human biscuit which you eat directly before putting your pup's meal down. This way it doesn't matter when you eat your meals nor when pup eats his. And it's a good excuse for you to have a Tim Tam . I don't put too much store in the "eat first" theory, but I do use it in my regime when I have clients who are having more extreme troubles with their adult dog/s. Whether it's because it does mean anything to the dog or whether it's because it helps some people with developing some structure and sense of assertiveness (which is often lacking and hence the reason for the troublesome dog), it doesn't really matter. But this is one of the more minor routines that by itself I don't think would make a difference.

I agree with the above. Watch the dog rather than the food bowl (or those liquid brown eyes that always seem to be imploring you to give more food ).

There's that, although that can be pretty hard to achieve with some dogs. With my previous girl and with my current boy, if people come to the door my first action has been to guide/usher them to the next room and close the door. My previous girl cottoned on to this very quickly and when a knock on the door came she would rush through to the next room automatically as that became her practised response. My current boy is beginning to get it although in his excitement he gets a bit confused and does a couple of laps around the room before scooting through the door to the next room. I find this an easier practise for both the dogs and also for the people. Also then easier to transfer that habit of going away from the doorway instead of going to it, to a mat or even to a crate. Once inside I then ask the visitors to wait on a second whilst I manage my dog - I put him on lead and control his behaviour around them. By this stage the visitors have already been asked to ignore him.

:D He's OS at the moment. Due back 25th October. Dr. Jean is away until 4th November. I presume her practice continues with the work in her absence, but it might be worth checking by emailing them and letting them know you're organising bloods to be sent there.

Thanks for your post, Staranais. The above is a good point. I've already sent the owner an email asking what her own Vet's thoughts were in relation to what seems to be (hypothesising because I haven't seen it) seizure activity. Waiting for a response. But yes - "regular epilepsy" could be an explanation. I'll post back when I have more info. Kelpie-i .... do you know if your dog's sister's owner has sourced out a Vet for a prescription to the medication recommended for her dog by Dr Jean?

You can download the 'testing requirements' form/s via Dr Dodds' website. These should be sufficient to let your Vet know what bloods are needed. You pre-arrange an international courier (I used Fed-Ex) to collect the bloods. There are forms you will need to fill out for Fed-Ex and also for Customs (in triplicate). Fed-Ex deliver the bloods to Dr. Dodds and the results will be emailed to both yourself and your Vet. If you want the bloods sent to the USA for testing (recommended, as per my earlier email) you might need to insist on this as there are some Vets out there who don't realise or acknowledge that the USA have a more thorough testing facility. Note that Dr Dodds is away until 4th November.

Received notice of the thyroid blood results for the Malinois. Test Requested Results Reference Range Units T4 T4 1.66 0.80 – 3.80 g/dL FREE T4 Free T4 0.99 0.55 – 2.32 ng/dL T3 T3 54 30 - 70 ng/dL FREE T3 Free T3 2.3 1.6 – 3.5 pg/mL THYROGLOBULIN AUTOANTIBODIES Thyroglobulin Autoantibody 2 NEGATIVE % ------------TGAA CONFIRMATORY TEST INTERPRETATION ------------ < 10% = Negative; 10%-25% = Equivocal; > 25% = Positive Elevated TGAA levels confirm autoimmune thyroiditis. False positive results can occur if the dog has been vaccinated for rabies within 30 to 40 days. Thyroid hormone supplementation can decrease TGAA levels. Performed using the preferred Non-Specific Binding (NSB) Method. 16 October 2009 Dear Annette: Thyroid levels are normal here, despite behavioral signs. TgAA is normal, so thyroiditis is not the reason for the borderline T4. Jean Adolescent T4 1.70 – 4.00 g/dL FT4 0.84 - 2.33 ng/dL Optimal Levels T3 40 – 70 ng/dL FT3 1.6 - 3.5 pg/mL X Thyroid levels are adequate overall A disappointing result, IMO, because it could have answered so much for this person and her dog and potentially been an easy or easier 'fix' to her dog's behaviour. I'm a bit curious though. T4 level seems to be a bit on the low side, yet as you'll read in the above report, "thyroiditis is not the reason for" this. What other reasons could there be for T4 being borderline/low? Anyone know? I have asked the owner to ask this of her own Vet as well. I've also asked what her Vet's comments/thoughts are on the "tick" that was observed when the dog was being examined, and the "flatness" the dog lapsed to afterwards ..... and I'm wondering if a lowered T4 could bear any connection to that? So for this dog, the next step I've suggested is a consult with a behaviourist, potentially a Vet/Behaviourist. We've not forgotten that this Malinois could be one of those sporting the 'trait' for which this thread was first started, so much depends on how far the owner wants and can afford to go. But in that, what goes a bit against that thought is that according to the breeder, none of the other dogs in her/his lines have been known to have possessed that trait. Not saying that rules it out, but I'd be thinking that it could point towards a reduced chance of that being the culprit for the behaviour.

Thanks Diablo. There's something else too, that I have noticed, but I don't know if it is something that is peculiar only to me. That is that I too can more easily 'hear' (ie not only 'feel') the message I'm sending to the dog I'm working with - IE how 'clean' and how quick the correction was/is, through the sound of the chain. Is this just me, or do others notice this too?

I thought this too (potentially thyroid). Has she been tested for this? Either way, I wouldn't trust the Aussie tests - they aren't as thorough as those in the USA. Having said this, if your dog is losing hair there is a chance that our local tests might show it. But if it came back negative I'd still be wondering what the USA results would show. So IMO, if you do have this tested, you'd be better off going straight to the ones who do the tests most thoroughly.

I agree with this.

I haven't used one. But personally, I like that the chain has a noise to it. When the noise is paired with the correction by the dog, sometimes the sound of the chain itself can become a sufficient 'correction' for some dogs, without needing to always follow through to the physical element of the correction. It is for this reason I prefer the chain section of martingales as well, rather than the webbing style that is often used instead of that chain component. I also wonder at how fast the "silent training collar" would deliver the correction by comparison to the chain. Timing is one of the keys to training, both in delivery of reinforcers as well as in the delivery of corrections.

I presume all else is well? IE that her teeth/mouth aren't sore in any way that could be putting her off from taking something hard to her mouth?

As I read your post I wondered "what sort of bowl?" and whether it was a metal one in which he could see his reflection. I'm not a fan of plastic bowls. They become scratched and can harbour bacteria. This can cause things that appear as similar to snow nose. I prefer ceramic bowls - but good quality proper dog ones, as certain ceramics are not good for dogs either. I also like the ceramics for the very reason that dogs can't get into the habit of using them as toys afterwards. And whilst a good trick of teaching your dog to place bowl in the dishwasher, careful that it doesn't promote interest in the dishwasher itself, which can become annoying. Moreover, the chemicals we use in dishwashers is often fairly costic (sp?) - I keep my boy well clear of it. And finally, my apologies. I sound like the fun police . Just some points to consider and intended to be helpful.

I purchased mine direct from Blackwell Publishing.

Janba - I think a Vet visit is warranted. Lameness can be due to so many things. Personally I wouldn't be giving any meds prior to the Vet visit. Sounds to me as though he is comfortable enough off when off his leg.

I agree - I often use food treats as a "stress thermometer".

Vets All Natural "Medi-treats" skin support. I cut them up into twos and fours as they are too big for training treats as they come.

Thanks Jeff. I've had a couple of well respected people saying that they are aware of the 'trait' and suggest that it is the conflict between weak nerves and high drive that contribute to it. Anyway, as to the dog in question, the bloods have been drawn and sent off to the USA. Estimated time of arrival is this coming Friday (not sure if that's USA time or AUS time) with results expected within 48 hours after that. The owner reports that whilst her dog was with the Vet (very tense) he exhibited a 'tick' (presuming seizure related). It was very quick, by the sounds, and when the dog was under a lot of pressure. Fortunately, the Vet noted the 'tick'. Afterwards, the dog was very flat. Curiously, when the dog was stress panting and trembling, its heart rate was checked as being normal. Eyes were very dilated but returned to normal when out at the car whilst the owner was filling in the paperwork. Owner has done all that can be done just for the moment. It's now a matter of waiting.

Staranais - with your experience in working with and towards rehabilitating an aggressive dog; your knowledge and understanding of training; and your balanced approach to diseases, treatments along with all the current information relating to the downside affects of over-vaccinating, you are going to make one heck of a Vet. Come out here and live near me, would you?

If people really cared about their little dogs, they should at the very least be concerned about how their little dog is feeling. Anxiety isn't good for any living being. Unfortunately many people only tend to think outside of the dog and for themselves. If it doesn't worry them (ie the people) then they often don't bother to extend their line of thinking to their dog for their dog's benefit. This is not every little dog owner though. I have met many who are concerned enough to want their little dog to be a well-balanced dog. Not only so it can behave in a manner acceptable within the community (although this is often the driving thought that first brings them to think about their dog's behaviour) but also so that their dog can, for its own sake, become a more relaxed animal.

Generally you can get an idea by observing the direction of focus from the dog. However, I'm not suggesting that the dog should be placed in a position where it is so uncomfortable that the anxiety levels are that high. The example I gave above was only given in support of the explanation relating to 'confidence in tactic' -vs- 'fear of stimulus', if you know what I mean.

Cosmolo .... have you ever seen a dog who to the unknowing looks, shall we say "dominance aggressive" but when the aggressive behaviour is prevented in the presence of the stimulus that scares it, reverts back to more obvious signs of fear? Many years ago I did a thesis on "Avoidance Motivated Aggression". With what I learnt I stopped using the term "fear aggression" because in my research and in my experience, I learnt that beneath all aggression lays an anxiety. Another term I read of someone else was "Control Motivated Aggression". Using the term "Fear Aggression" to me implies that there is an opposite - IE "Dominance Aggression", which leads the listener/reader to believe that with the latter, the dog is not concerned about anything, that it is just aggressive for aggressive sake. The trouble is that so many people didn't understand what I meant when I referred to those terms (ie AMA or CMA) and I'd end up in hour long conversations (which I don't mind if time is permitting) explaining what I meant and why. So I frequently revert back to the term "fear aggression". A dog can learn to become confident about its tactics working. And so it becomes confident that it will win and survive each time it shows it in the presence of the stimuli that bothers it. If the dog had become confident about the stimuli and no longer feared it, the dog would have no need of the exhibition of aggression. Aggression is not an appetitive behaviour. I say all of this on the assumption of course that the dog is a healthy specimen and that there is no underlying medical reason for its behaviour. But I presume we are all talking on that same assumption.

Oh gosh ..... that paints all of us as suspect . T'wasn't me (Pro-K9). It wouldn't be Kelpie-i. Nor would it be Cosmolo. Nor K9 Force.

IME Cosmolo, the dog remains fearful of the stimuli which triggered the fear response in the first place, but can become confident that its tactics to deal with the situation will work. So the fear of the stimulus remains, the dog just doesn't show the fear in its body language as much.

I don't believe that. Do you think all prey drive related behaviour is fear based too, then? I don't regard prey drive related behaviour as "aggression".