Kelpie-i

Really difficult to know what sort of trainer/school it is merely by the website and it would be unfair as well as unprofessional for any trainer to comment on such. I recommend you go down and check out the classes and ask the participants what they think. That would be the best point of reference. Others on here might have a different opinion though..

Aiden I've had a chance to re-read the link with a fresher mind and I understand what you are saying. After doing some deeper research on the various definitions of extinction v -P, I can see how easily it can be misinterpreted which I obviously had. Fancy thinking that -P was the removal of a reinforcer, well at least this was what I was taught (or remember learning) so many years ago, when in actual fact it is the removal of something else that the dog may see as valuable but not the actual reinforcer itself. I never really bothered to research -P any further, hence this was my understanding of it. Having said that, I did initially think that you were putting extinction in the same boat as the quadrants. (goes away with tail tucked) Question: When teaching a new behaviour by successive approximation ie. whilst luring you give the dog bits of the treat for each increment that draws closer to the desired behaviour and then the dog suddenly gets up and you withdraw the treat, what would you call that process? There was no associated reinforcer to the behaviour, therefore it is not extinction. Do you still see this as R+?

Yes I was Aiden The very link you provided, is exactly what I was getting at: Extinction is a process through which the rate of a behavior decreases because a reinforcer that has been delivered in connection with that behavior is no longer delivered. In other words, a behavior is reinforced for some period of time and its rate increases or stays stable, but then the reinforcer stops being delivered when the behavior happens so the rate of the behavior diminishes. In the extinction process the behavior declines because the reinforcer is no longer delivered when the behavior happens. The reinforcer and the behavior no longer have that contingent relationship. Extinction is a process and the result that occurs due to the fact that the reinforcer is no longer being delivered. The delivery of the reinforcer which increases behaviour is known as R+ which is 1 fourth of the quadrant. In order for the behaviour to become extinct or lessen you can use the opposite of R+ which is P-. Re-read the link and you will see that she mentions Extinction as a process, not a reinforcement quadrant, so I am really not understanding your argument Aiden. Anyway, as many here have pointed out, quadrants are boring and not everyone is interested in the learning theory, therefore unless you are consciously thinking about the type of reinforcement or punishment you are using and the result it is achieving, it really doesn't matter. As long as the desired result is achieved. Perhaps you could start a new thread on the topic where other trainers here can provide their views.

Too right jdavis, someone on this forum was trying to tell me that extinction training is part of the reinforcement quadrant schedule..............never mind!

Some people have the knack of writing eloquently and then there's me Corvus, as others mentioned, whilst your posts are long-winded, you are entitled to your opinion and to express your thoughts on a matter. But when you ask things like "how would you" or "what do you do", then expect answers that you may not necessarily consider or agree with. I've never sensed any of your posts as being arrogant. :D

Good on you Sue&Cindy, a much nicer way to train IMO and creates a dog who enjoys training. That's the important part!

Sorry Corvus, but the title of your thread is "How would you handle a dog that dislikes being told off?", and the posts you received have answered your question. You asked a question, you got many answers. I don't understand why you have now "lost enthusiasm" for this thread? Perhaps they weren't the techniques you were looking for??

Bolded text 1: Corvus does your new puppy see this as aversive? If the behaviour is continuing, then it is quite obvious this technique is failing you. Bolded text 2: Based on what you've written, you should find what your new pup finds aversive to help stop the behaviour. Aversives are part of life and part of the learning process. Why are some people so against aversives? [scratches head] Rom, agree with your last sentence, we've turned into such a "cotton wool" society. Barbara Woodhouse predicted this in one of her books written in the 70's and she was right. We have a GSD that comes to training, a huge dog that lunges, pulls and mouths people constantly. The owner had previously gone to a PP Vet Behaviourist who advised her never to say "No" to the dog but instead wait for the dog to stop (come off the person) and reward with a treat. What the???

2 Words.....RULES & BOUNDARIES! Give Kivi a break and step in to take control of the situation.

I wouldn't be correcting a dog if it isn't 10% sure of what you expect. Remember you are training a new exercise and it would be unfair to the dog to get a correction for something he/she doesn't quite know yet. Yes, mark/reward each time she sits at heel in the initial stage of the teaching.

I once saw a docco about a border collie who was absolutely obsessed with chasing birds. No matter what the owner's tried, there was no way this dog was going to stop. From memory, the dog was eventually rehomed to a corn farmer where the dog was used to warn off the birds around the crops and there he lived out his days "working" for a living. Not saying you have to rehome your dog to a corn farmer, but maybe you might want to "go with the flow" rather than fight your dog's urge to chase. As I see it, you have 2 options:, 1. as per Cosmolo's post, to introduce a correction OR 2. get your dog into a sport that involves chasing like lure coursing. Dog's with a strong instinct to chase and/or a high prey drive can develop obsessive compulsive behaviours as means to the outlet. I realise you are using tug and balls etc, but may these are not fulfilling enough for your dog.

I'm with Cosmolo and Nekhbet here. No teeth on skin...ever! This is a strict rule which all my dogs have learned when they were puppies. Personally I think the yelling "ouch" technique is too slow and I have seen people (young kids) try to do it and the pup just goes in harder as he thinks its a game. Nothing wrong with a quick correction even by way of squirt from a water bottle to stop the behaviour dead in its tracks.

Once a dog has learned to jump, there's usually no stopping him/her since this can be a highly rewarding act for the dog. Increasing exercise and obedience does help immensely since the dog is receiving much needed stimulation. However, the problem is certainly a serious one as the consequences of fence jumping are many. I good cheap solution is to purchase an electric fence unit which will cost all of $170 or so and can be moved if needed. There are no attachments to the dog and does not cause any harm to the dog. Do a google search for the Thunderbird 12 volt pet containment system which comes with all the wire and gadgets required to set it up. Works very well! The company who distributes the kit is in Sydney....sorry I forget the name. But you must also, as mentioned above, increase exercise and obedience for your dog as well.

I would recommend changing training schools and go where the trainers understand herding dogs and/or predatory behaviour. Sounds like your dog may be overwhelmed by all the other sites and sounds. Can you explain, in more detail, what sort of behaviour he is exhibiting around the other dogs? ....and how exactly did your leg get in the way twice?

I think what Herding Guy is referring to is the the biting/nipping, not the herding instinct itself. Biting and nipping of stock, more so sheep, is undesirable in a herding dog. This sort of behaviour can cost a dog points in a herding trial and tends to stress the sheep. Dogs with a strong urge to bite/nip can be successfully used for cattle work but the are generally muzzled (if the behaviour is severe) when working sheep.

sunnyy, I don't think your dog's issues will be helped with this type of class and by the sounds of it, there doesn't seem to be any structure or control where you are currently going. i don't live in WA so I am unable to help you locate another school/trainer but I will say this...be sure to suss out where you intend to go and ask lots of questions about their techniques and methods as well as experience with aggression. Dog aggression (I'm gathering this is what your dog has) needs to be worked calmly and progressively. Avoid physical correction based methods where possible until the dog has learned alternative behaviours to the ones he is currently showing. If possible, look for a place that has a balanced approach and is able to provide you with a good structured program with lots of guidance. Good luck!

I've seen people have major problems trying to put the Sporn harness on.....looking at this Halti Harness....well I would pay to watch how long it takes the average Joe to figure out how to put one on

Not too much damage can be done when using a clicker...even if you happen to click too slow initially and/or subsequently reward the wrong behaviour. After all...I'm sure even the pro's got it wrong sometimes initially. Far more damage to be had with a badly timed physical correction IMO. :D

The proof's in the puddin' I reckon. 'Qualifications' only come from the number of dogs you've successfully worked with/rehabilitated and/or treated. It matters not the number of letters after your name, the piece of paper in your resume nor the number of years you've been at it. Your results speak louder than all of the above.

What ?? I think I'll go and start a thread on drive training :D Oh...and don't be wiggling your backside at me

scratches head....... Hi Brad and welcome to the forum. I'm just a little unsure as to why you posted what you did. Discussions about NDTF qualifications and the like have been done to death on this forum. What was your aim here.....just curious :p

I think the others here have pretty much given a good summing up of the kelpie breed. ;) Kelpies are bred to think for themselves, so sometimes they may do things that are totally against what you want them to do...because they think they know better. Seriously, the Kelpie is not a dog for everybody but a well trained, socialised and confident Kelpie (or 2 or 3 :p ) is a dream to own. Set clear rules and boundaries and stick to them.....no grey areas. I think this goes for all dogs. Kelpies do not take to aversive methods very well....in fact many shut down very quickly if corrected or over corrected (physically). This is probably due to the fact that we are seeing more "softer" temperamented Kelpies these days as opposed to those who are a little more harder in temperament. I think many of the arrogant types stay on the farms to work the cattle There is no secret when training a Kelpie, apart from start young and continue forever...they love to learn so keep their minds busy with games, obedience and sport as 4kelpies pointed out. They do have a tendency for obsessive compulsive behaviours....these occur mainly due to early imprinting during the critical socialisation period, or later in life due to boredom. My only advice is to enrol in a good obedience school and be consistent with your training. If the methods are harsh, leave and find another school. Kelpie's are like playdough as they can be moulded into anything therefore you don't need harsh method to achieve this. Good luck to the both of you and have fun.

Rest assured MM, that the NDTF course is fully nationally accredited with all Units/Modules carrying the accreditation.

Just to add to Haven's very comprehensive post (and please feel free to correct me at any time Haven ) The RUV4512A Conduct Companion Animal Training Classes unit, specifically, is actually given to the RTO's (Registered Training Organisations) as a "shell" ie. there are certain elements that must be covered to meet the accreditation standard. The body (content) of the unit is then written by the RTO which must cover each element as prescribed. The other RUV units are all generic units which have been written by an independant body (can't remember their name) which the RTO purchases the rights to use. If they want to add a dog training slant to the units they can and as Haven mentioned, any additional information that does not form part of the core unit's elements is not and cannot be tested for and/or given accreditation. The "VBN" units offered by the NDTF have all been written by the NDTF and are ALL accredited units which are assessed for and do form part of the accrediation title. Therefore this quote: , is actually not correct. The NDTF course units are all nationally accredited. It matters not who started offering the courses first, what matters is who provides a more comprehensive course.

Dogs that are aggressing are working in hind brain, there is no learning or even thinking happening. Why the hell would you want to string it up and cut off the airway....what the hell is the dog learning here??