asal

they will ultimately be flown into Australia for supply people if the backyarders who never microchip and thus untraceable cant keep up with the demand as registered breeders give up due to more and more draconian laws to eliminate them continue.

7 hours ago, Amazetl said:

I inquired the other day about desexing my mature girl. I couldn’t believe how much it was going to cost. The lower rate of registration I’m not sure is all that low when you take into account the cost of desexing. I’m not blaming the vets at all. These things cost but I don’t think many people factor in all those costs. They think of the initial - food, bed, toys, maybe puppy school, but what about for years and vaccinations and de-wormers and obedience classes and desexing and all the rest. I’m sure a lot of people do consider it but I would be concerned with someone buying from a byb and not really doing those sums first. They generally can’t give the dog back like they can with a proper breeder and if they can’t pass the dog on or sell it (hopefully for a profit some of them) then they take it to a shelter. 

 

Also, I was looking at shelter dogs online in my area and wondered who breeds these mixes. Some of them had so many interesting mixes I don’t understand how they breed them or why, do they really think they’ll make a profit out of selling the heavily mixed pups? I don’t know. Or do they just have a female and a male and don’t desex and end up with pups on their hands? I don’t know much about it really but I don’t think the problem is with breed club breeders who should home their dogs to appropriate homes and take them back if needed. 

 

I don’t know, I’m sure some of the laws have helped a little but there’s still a huge problem and those are falling through the cracks meanwhile some who are good pay the price. And breeds will decline over time. It will be interesting and probably sad to see what happens in the future generations. I think I read somewhere maybe on here about how many breeders aren’t willing to take a chance on a new generation of breeders and mentor them and allow them to carry on their lines. But if they don’t then they’re going to die out. I don’t know exactly how it works and I’m sure there’s a lot of good mentoring happening but it does seem like most adds sell on limited and express seriously about no breeding. 

its almost impossible for a newbie to find a registered breeder who will hand over main registration,   the ethical, responsible mantra has been to be a dead end kennel.

I have had people crying they have been so traumatised by conversations with previous breeders whose advertisement they had replied too.

As tdierikx pointed out, the pounds are full of un microchipped dogs.  every one of them has come from the real backyard invisible breeders.

they are the real suppliers of puppies now.

everyone else is being systematically eliminated

1 hour ago, ~Anne~ said:

I hate the byb vs pedigree debate. There shouldn’t be a debate because it’s horses for courses. 
 

I liken it to the debate which rages about public schools and private schools. It’s a choice and each to their own. The teachers and curriculum are all the same in both systems. The differences are cultural.
 

Same with breeding dogs. It’s a cultural difference. The genetics are the same.  ALL dogs, byb or pedigree, have genetic issues just like we humans do. There is no such thing as a perfect canine specimen - it’s a feckin’ myth! The cultural difference means one lot is bred to a set of desirable traits - that doesn’t mean the dog is any better than the dog which is not bred for specific traits. 
 

I CHOOSE to buy purebred because I want certain traits in my animals. That’s my choice but my choice is not any better or worse than someone who buys a dog from a non pedigree breeder. If I wanted another dog now, I would likely buy from a pedigree breeder. I hate the stupidity of the statement ‘rescue, don’t buy’. Feck off and don’t tell me what I do and please don’t dare lay a guilt trip on me because I choose to do what is best for me.  
 

The cruelty and abuse debate is a seperate issue and comes with a whole new set of points. 
 

As for rescues - I get where you’re coming from (I can’t see what Powerlegs said as the posts are now gone).  My eyes never roll so hard as they do when I see some of the rubbish on social media. It’s an unregulated industry which means it’s a mess. There’s so many people with their hearts in the right places but their heads are another matter, and running any business purely on emotion isn’t a good idea. 

at the rate of decline in registered breeders the debate is soon irrelevant ,  australia has a population of over 26 million people, 40% have a pet dog.

" Dogs continue to be Australia's most popular pets, with just over 5 million dogs across the nation. Forty per cent of Australian households have at least one dog (largely unchanged since 2016, at 38%). The average number of dogs per dog-owning household has also remained relatively steady at 1.3."

Health research has proven over and over again the health benefits of pets of any species.

Yet legislation led by the lunatic fringe to eliminate them keeps being drafted and passed?  

Why?  Because even pet owners are caught up in the "we have to eliminated puppy farmers" this chant began with PETA, its been implanted in everyone's brains since 1980's when PETA began.

no one in the whole almost 40 years now has defined a puppy farmer?  

The similarities to the Salem witch hunts is remarkable and still no one is catching on.

People will find their pet, they want one, they need one and if the governments shut down every one that is a tracable breeder, which is the AR nutters ultimate aim.  There are still millions of people with a female with a friend with a male , so they will never be on the radar willing and able to supply friends, family and by word of mouth.   

The AR's are creating a black market ultimately.

we all know about Prohibition in america.  How long that lasted.

The era of the bootleg pets is coming. 

On 27/08/2022 at 6:04 AM, tdierikx said:

In defence of @Powerlegsand other rescuers of undeniable integrity... I'd say that they DON'T have a "god complex"... they are just wanting to make sure that the dogs they rehome never have to see another pound/shelter again.

 

The current problem of overflowing pounds and shelters is testament to what happens when dogs are sold to the first person lobbing up with the money...

 

T.

actually it is rather interesting, curious and puzzle, all rolled into one.  All the strangling laws the politicians have created to micro manage registered breeders into reducing the number of registered breeders has significantly reduced by the tens of thousands as have the number of puppies that can be bred?

to the degree that finding a puppy from one of these breeders has led to waiting lists, in some cases for year or years.

Yet it seems there is just as many, if not more dogs being surrendered than in the 1990"s?

so 30 years to "eliminate puppy farmers" yet nothing has changed?

1 hour ago, WanaHavanese said:

Yeah you missed my point entirely @Powerlegs

 

 

Looking back over these forums today, the oodle debate has been going on for over a decade. Yet the poodle cross has only increased in popularity. There are so many reasons for it. People will pay for convenience and choice. Cutting out pet shops just cut out the middle man (and gave the methhead up the street a steady income selling $500 staffies).  Plenty see the same thing as me, the extreme gatekeeping and hoopjumping required from some rescues and some breeders sends puppy buyers straight into the hands of backyard breeders. 

ITS AMAZING, they cant see it. they parrot ethical and responsible as if it were some magic spell? 

takes me back to the days when people wore garlic around their neck to ward off vampires?  or was it witches?

anyway they have the chant off pat.

it sure drives many people away, so perhaps its working,  so do we presume those repelled are vampires or witches??????????? 

51 minutes ago, julesluvscavs said:

Hi I had one of our diagnosed with SM/PSOM through a MRI a while back through a animal neuro in SA
She's no longer with us.. passed away from something else
Search SM on Dol, was a discussion not that long ago about it. i replied in it so wont go over it again in detail.
Yes it exists here too and dogs can have it to different degrees/severities. I feel like im bit of an expert on the topic now.
The Breeder (a registered one) did not have any previous issues with it certainly not with the parents. Sometimes it doesn't show up to they are few years old so not always viable scanning every dog! The Breeder did not breed again after learning about our Cavalier (She actually came to the place the MRI was done at) and was terribly upset after the diagnosis.
Its not just the Cav breed that are predisposed to it.  Humans can have it also, Chari formation.
Ive owned many Cavs, only 1 has had it. It was controlled by medications (lots) once she was diagnosed. Many dogs with it are often mistaken with that they have behavioural issues.
There is an op for it like with Humans who have it but its not successful long term with dogs.
I currently have 3 Cavs of varying ages, so far so good. And i owned 2 before the one we had with SM. Only had one with a heart murmur but never got past a grade 1 and never needed any heart medication.
Theres never any guarantee with any dog breed or us, with health.
They don't generally have very long lives but i will always love the Cavalier Breed and take the risk for owning these beautiful gentle souls.
Like with every breed keeping them healthy and at a good weight is crucial to their general health, joints and heart.
Ours all except one have been from registered ethical breeders whom we have become friends with over the years (2 of who have since passed away).Our oldest one was rehomed to us years ago from a friend of a friend. 
I do know the Breeders we know prefer selling to mostly locals who they have met in person as part of their application process. I dont think any have sold to OS
Hope you find one from a ethical breeder if you do go down that path. Sounds difficult though with what you have written. Goodluck!



 

I used to breed cavaliers, utterly adorable but after getting a new boy "from tested parents" he threw 2 with sm  a few years apart, the 1st of mild, the 2nd was terribly affected at only 16 weeks and had to be put down to end her suffering.  That for me that was the end of my breeding them anymore.  No one can cope with a Russian roulette like that.

the blame that was heaped on me was incredible.

as if anyone would deliberately breed  that?

but so many breeders openly say that to be an ethical, responsible breeder you guarantee your pups for life.  The inference that seems to be taken , that if anything bad does show up it is the breeders fault, not bad luck, as my vet says considering the billions of cells that make up a rapidly developing baby of any species its a miracle so many get it right.

knowing no matter how careful you can be selecting the parents, to discover this happen, then be be asked how could you be so cruel to breed this puppy to suffer, when it had passed all vets checks as a baby by the vet , who incidentally they did not ring him and ask how could he be so incompetent not to have recognised this in the pup?

Yet feel perfectly free to tell the breeder  your unethical and irresponsible for having one develop this is just soul destroying.

Cant do more than return their money on the spot, cant cure it and the guilt and anger directed means many will never breed again.

as you said "There's never any guarantee with any dog breed or us, with health."  but that has been completely forgotten in the rush to prove how ethical and responsible a member is. 

As a friend said only this year,  " I am beginning to think the first requisite of an ankc member these days is stupidity, I dont think we belong here anymore!"

5 hours ago, raineye said:

Thanks both! does it need to be a specialised neurologist who does the test? I read about MRIs

Yes.  I will send you a private message. I know one breeder who MRI"s

21 hours ago, Christina77 said:

Thank you everyone , I think I have my work cut out for me . Lots more research to do  including the good suggestions about the Retirement Homes pet policies. The one I looked at just said we welcome pets as they are part of the family . However there is probably more to it then that which I need to look into .

 

Will also consider the weather up here , Frenchie's are popular but not suited to the hot weather up here and Dashies are in huge numbers , it's seriously like the 'in' dog here with young well to do families , don't ask me why  

 

I would love a Lab but they are probably to big for retirement villages , but I will check that out .

 

I still miss my girl so much , I've been saying that if a dog should cross my path that's the only time I know I will get one and so far nothing . Maybe she was just the one and only  . ACD's are hard to replace 

australia's best kept secret. but then maybe that is good, if you dont know what your doing the acd trains you instead

9 hours ago, WanaHavanese said:

The retirement place near me accepts existing pets only. I've already decided I will get a generic looking lop bunny and just replace it with the same colour over and over until the end of my time 

This would also work with a Bichon Friese,  haha.  

 

Some of the dogs I have seen up there include cavaliers, Moodles(maltese poodle), chiXjack russel  (yappy),  Pomeranians and a very small Lhasa Apso. My 86 year old neighbour has a huntaway and another elderly lady has a big blue heeler, although neither of these are in the retirement village, they cope with their big dogs fine. The 86 year old has already said shes getting a standard poodle as her next dog. 

 

I love the Havanese dogs, but cant get my hands on one. So I got an oodle (mostly poodle) and she is the perfect house dog, I cant even believe how good she is with the house buns. Non shedding, no yap (a surprisingly deep bark when it does happen), active yet also very good at obeying "settle now".  I have read on these forums that more of the poodle cross dogs are in shelters over east now. In saying that, I am leaning towards my next dog being a bit more on the slow and stubborn side as the all too eager to please bouncy poodle nature is a bit much sometimes! 

 

 

 

 

my family has had many poodles, me included. sadly some lines are just that too bouncy, but none of ours were. I suspect two reasons, yes some are bred that way and from what I have heard very many these days. but .... I was asked to look after a friends girl....   gee she arrived with two pages of instructions for her diet and and founcy? yikes. 

as for food she was so picky.  put her with my boy, down went the food bowels and anything she hadn't eaten by the time he was finished , disappeared in seconds. only took her three days to twig. eat whats on offer or it disappears.  she liked to bark so was told to be quiet.  that too only took four days.  I looked after her for almost 4 weeks, by then she was as well behaved as my boy and my mums girl. nothing like the "highly strung" fruit loop that arrived.  Her owners was incredulous how calm and confidant she was.  so I suspect this breed is so smart they will train you if you dont realise it.

although the last I bought, nup, rehomed her, she was acting like the other girl at even 8 weeks old and if you left her sight she went mental screaming, literally. something seriously wrong in the attic.  she had been an impulse buy at the grace brother pet shop, I later learned her parents were crazy and thats why they sold the puppies to the pet shop, people took one look at the mad parents and left.

you really need to see the parents when you are getting a puppy, if they dont have the temperament you want, keep looking.  Ditto for Chi's,  some lines are bitey barkers.  Other lines are exactly as described by Persephone,  Elfreda lines were noted for their wonderful natures. every dog came running to be patted. any of their descendants give the breed a good name.

WOW ! 

nsw parliament is a "toxic, unwelcoming workplace and this report is the first step to address and change this"  "report finds systemic bullying"   gee so many of my friends sure have known that the second someone pointed the finger with "puppy farmer" the cry!

so at least the problem is pervading all levels of this nation not just ankc?

Interesting?

Almost 2 weeks and not one of how many members has been motivated to show off their mums?

I know there are at least 1,248 breeder members with puppies advertised for sale, so ?

Would I be correct that sadly every one is afraid to share photos of their mums and bubs.

Well, except when must take the risk of being judged as a possible puppy farmer when advertising their puppies?

This was once a thriving forum.  

Now its just about dead as a dodo, just as the ANKC is heading so inextricably.

As one commented , everyone has moved to face book. or as I like t call it FACEPLANT.

You virtually find it impossible to find a thread you were interested in.  there is no file to click on faceplant to find old and archived threads. like how to help swimmer puppies as one member here asked.

Even worse their ignorant thought police can put you in fb jail simply because they haven't a clue what your talking about so instant jail (one made a comment about castrating males and jail they went) (seemed the thought police thought they meant human males)  unless you can explain their mistake and often there is no appeal let alone explanation.   Last but by no means least, you cant even mention, saints forbid that you want to sell or rehome a dog or puppy? Let alone an animal of any kind whatso ever

SO why on earth make that egotistical billionaire even more money?

As for the continual quest to prove how ethical and responsible you are by treating puppy searchers as potential puppy farmers ?

You are driving them away in droves into the arms of the real puppy farms and backyard opportunists who wouldn't even dream of health let alone temperament being a priority.

A lady drove all the way from Queensland, an 11 hour drive because she couldn't wait to see her puppy she had been waiting for over a year for her puppy.  She wants to breed and show purebred. She wants to be an ANKC member.  Yet in her search for her girl she discovered telling the truth meant either she was hung up on, or her calls and emails were never replied too. It took her 2 years to find someone who would even discuss it with her let alone consider showing her their puppies? Thanks to all the rules she couldn't even apply for her prefix until she had her girl puppy.

She already knew when she wanted a male where she was coming, she was very particular what she wanted and knew she would get a call when one like him turned up. She was just as particular what she wanted in her girl.

NO wonder the ankc member ship is imploding.  Very few newbies are as determined and patient as this lady.

Is there any chance enough will wake up and welcome newbies instead of this ever smothering suspicion?

You are doing the ar nutters work in ending the gene pool of the breeds you profess to love?

On 06/07/2022 at 4:57 PM, Diva said:

Yes they can be shown.  Blue is in the standard. I think the issue is with the standard asking for a black nose. But it would just be a fault like any other, not a DQ. I suspect most judges wouldn’t be too worried if it’s dark. 

HILARIOUS isnt it, the standard writers seem unaware no blue dog can have a black nose. The nose can only blue

Same applies to a chocolate of any breed as well. the nose can only be chocolate.   well unless you want to get the vet to tattoo it black? as some do to prevent cancer on a pink nose or ears, ive seen it done to a friends cat. after they lost their previous white to cancer

On 07/09/2020 at 11:20 PM, rOcksher37 said:

thanks, 

 

yes we read the thread, thanks for posting. 

 

but no one really explained what the purpose of the sling do?

our girl just sleeps in the there and doesnt move, sometimes back legs come out backwards but the we tuck them back in.

so how does this help the puppy? if you dont mind us asking, 

 

also how does getting the puppy to sleep on her side help also

 

thanks

you have to make sure what bedding your puppy is on is easy to grip with the little paws. slippery and cannot get off chest. also keep laying the pup on its side. make sure its always sleeping on its side. time consuming but the benefits are speeds up the breastbone and ribs returning to normal, same for the pelvis and hips going back to correct angles again, the quicker you spot it the faster its back to normal.

usually the causes are slippery footing, a hollow or fold in the bedding puppy gets stuck on its chest and the fatter the puppy the quicker it develops. massage to both sides while on its side helps a lot too, their bones are only cartlidge at that stage remember

1 hour ago, PossumCorner said:

Doesn't matter about the horse's colour, journalist probably just asked for a handful of photos and picked the ones that fitted the alloted page/column space best.  Just an example of you can never believe what you read in the papers (or news internet).

 

Our early riding days were less parks and more bush.  Dogs weren't on leads or with owners, they'd be running sometimes packs for kangaroos (or more likely sheep). So no willing sympathetic helpers around.  One trick is to pull a stirrup iron off the saddle and swing the iron on it's leather, sounds harsh these days but it's no joke being attacked by dog while riding and no apology I'd rather have had the dog disabled than the horse or rider or both.  Times change.

MY BOY could cut dogs as fast as he could cut cattle. he would wait till they came running up behind him thinking they could grab him from behind, then he would spin and land with forefeet either side of the stunned dog and teeth snapping in its face..........  few came back for seconds.................  he even loved to cut wild rabbits!   I kid you not.  staying on as he ran, sat, spun, ran, sat spun with his head this low is harder than being on a rollercoaster 

8 hours ago, sheena said:

Both look like bays to me.  The one on the beach is a different horse...that one is a chestnut

Luna in the video is wearing white pastern boots. and next photo are bay with no white feet.

Luna in the second photo is a chestnut with one white sock and narrow star and short strip

Luna in the third photo is a chestnut with blaze face right to the nose and three white legs.   

so there is Luna 1  Luna 2 and Luna 3   

weird?

the owner gave no details and ran off?

so how on earth can u fine someone if you have no idea who they are?

obviously the horse owner has 3 horses and wanted the world to see all 3 of them 

On 06/07/2022 at 9:04 PM, JBonman said:

I promised my daughter we'll get Australian Cattle Dog if she's finish her first school year with good marks... and now I have to  We didn't have a dog before, so I've been reading online about this and other breeds, and found here that Blue Heeler is much better for novice owners:

 

https://barkingroyalty.com/compare-breeds/australian-cattle-dog-vs-texas-heeler

 

Do you think this is true? Should we be able to train the dog on our own?

 

Thanks for any insights!!

mmmm the breed standard specifically states,    suspicious of strangers......   

until I tell mine the stranger is ok,

If no one is home, they either wont let them in .  Or if they do let them in the gate and then wont let the leave. which  can be rather embarrassing if im not home for a couple of hours or more!

On 29/07/2022 at 7:24 AM, Luvapoo said:

Sadly this breed of dog has become popular due to the show Bluey. 

As mentioned above people are buying them with no idea of the training and exercise demands.

When I was young we had two stumpy tailed cattle dogs. They were brilliant dogs but needed constant training exercise and discipline.

They were not good with small children, in fact we didn't trust them with small children.

they are a breed that if you do not train them, they will train you.   THAT is a given.  As for not good with small children?   my daughter was gven Berrilyn Blue Debutaunt by Hilton Sinclair, the  day she was born, by the time the pair of them were six months, Debbie was guarding daughters nappy when she discarded it, Her dad went to pick it up and Debbie put her paw on it clearly telling hubby, "U dont touch my masters nappy!" That puppy would protect my child with her life.

same as her  great grand mum Blue who Hilton Sinclair had given to my husbands first born  son 17 years before.   She too tolerated Pauls rough house play, the brat at 3 and 3 stone was caught sitting on blue who although gasping for breath did not tell him to get off, his dad gave him the hiding for being rough to Blue. They are amazing kids dogs, if it isn't, its not a true cattledog. They dont just herd cattle, they were bred to guard your home and anything with your scent on it. saddle, horse, clothe's car, truck AND CHILDREN.

when Pauls daughter Emma was born, one sniff and Benny and Rosie added newborn Emma to the protected list. In fact from the day they brought her home from hospital, neither slept at the end of  Paul and Sue's bed. from that day they slept at the door to emma's room.  when Paul found them missing that first night. both were asleep below Emma's cot. so he shut the door to keep them out but they would not leave the door.   (no baby should be left unattended with a dog of ANY BREED) So they could only guard the door.   

Never forget Paul phoning me to tell me "I owe u an apology, I always thought your story of your dads dog blue was bull shit, Now I know its true!"

Sue Emma's mum decided to take her out in the pram for a walk. neither Benny or Rosie would walk at heel, both insisted in walking beside the front of the pram. Both Sue and Paul wondered why the people walked towards they crossed the road? So Paul crossed the road and walked level with Benny and Rosie.   soon as the people coming towards them got within 25 feet. both dogs smiled, showing their teeth and............ the people crossed the road.   (Same as people had done when my dad sent me to the shop, with a note n money, with his dog blue from when I was 7)  trait of the true blue Australian cattle dog. guard the kids.  it was a pain though when playing with my friends, if we had an argument that turned into a fight, Blue, (dads dog) would push over and sit on the aggressor. end of fight. As the eldest and biggest, I was the one getting sat on. so no hope of winning the argument, sigh.

Connie with her first litter,  obviously not 8 weeks yet, 12 of them,  also some 9 years ago. Her mum was bred by Arizona, Her dad Ch Itsozi Out of the Blue. Connie is my only non Berrilyn descended female line and fits so well with them.

one of her daughters is Red Foxi Lady, By Ch Pureheel Royal Echo, she won 8 best in shows for her thrilled owner, a blue sister, sorry forget her name won 4 best in show or best in breed 

thanks  tdierikx , figured how to reduce it.  Mareeba the blue whale.

gee this pic is some 9 years ago

19 hours ago, asal said:

 

Yes my sisters daughter paid 7,000 for an oodle, 18 months ago. friend just bought one for her mum 1,500.

 

but the dog world and breed and x bred fashion cycles have been in existence for decades.

 

its not new and repeats  

 

the fashion starts, people start breeding whats in and flood it. 

crash

fashion starts for another

 

seen it , being over 70, seen so many breeds bred to freak proportions and suddenly no one wants them

 

sadly fact.   

 

micromanaging only the ankc and other registers will never stem the flood

 

the invisible backyarders are not huge visible traceable "puppy farms"  as so often said,  they actually

are people with 1 or 2 but there are tens of thousands of them.

 

 

 

 

Well remember Ivor Slezacheck BvSc telling me one day, some 30 years ago," Mt Druitt has the largest vector of unvaccinated dogs in the Sydney basin.  When we get the strong winds, I'm seeing up to a dozen dogs a day with parvo"

From just one vet?  goodness knows what the numbers would be over all the affected area's vets impacted?

Nothing has changed.   

the august winds are just as effective today as they were then. 

I'd ring to get a litter vaccinated and my vet will tell me.

"Don't take them out of the car,  

I'll do them in the car, I've so many infected dogs in my surgery today."

41 minutes ago, tdierikx said:

 

@persephone, try Easy Thumbnails... https://www.fookes.com/easy-thumbnails

 

T.

ive discovered many of my photos are too big to post, got a doozy of mareeba with her puppies. size of a blue whale, but it just wont let me post it?

11 hours ago, EMWEY93 said:

 

Looking to get some answers from some very long time dog people for the sake of curiosity.

 

 

 

Pedigree....

 

 

 

How many of you feed it/have fed it/fed it for a long number of years. Surely there might be a few of you out there. Occasionally I bump into the old cocky in the supermarket (I live In Rural NSW) that laughs at me buying my grain free food and says he swears by Pedigree or Chum and has done for years. 

 

 

 

And yeah I know, in today's modern times pedigree is not considered "healthy" and that raw and grain free and probably people will say there is literally anything better than pedigree including garbage from the local tip...but I'm not going to hold it against or food bash anyone who feeds Pedigree, I'm not here to do that. Im just curious to hear from real life people. The website says it's been around for 40 years! So there must be a reason why it still exists.

 

 

 

Didn't the slogan used to be "recommended by top breeders" back when it was called PAL.

 

I would be interested to hear from said breeders from back in those days on the health and condition of their dogs on Pedigree, how long they lived for eating Pedigree etc. Surely there were champions from that time that ate Pedigree? 

 

Thankyou heaps from my curious brain!

 

 

LOL, i never fed PAL

well unless I wanted the place smothered in runny doo's 

3 years ago this one, 7 pups raised

these photos go back to up to ten years ago , never seem to have seen skinny mummies, litter sizes varied from 6 to 9