asal

you are also ignoring the fact that the majority of people who want to breed oodles do not waste their time paying mega for one from a registered breeder check the trading post. they go for peanuts from the unregistered yarders I grew up near what used to be called council houses.. cheap houses cheap rents, many bred puppies to make money and there wasnt a registerd parent in the lot. so becomeing a dead end kennel is doing that. dead ending the registered purebred dog. heres one add.. the parents look lovely to me anyway. certainly pretty cute examples of the poodle and not a pedigree paper in sight. http://www.tradingpost.com.au/Pets-Horses/Dogs/Dogs-for-Sale/AdNumber=TP005089143 doesnt lessen the quality of the parents does it? love dad and adore mum guarding the bed.. just like my pickle used too. never had to worry about my sibling messing up my room my mini guard dog made sure no one but me touched anthing in MY room. LOL you ideas certainly does extinct anyone haveing a actually pedigree puppy though and less members and pedigree dogs though. so what do you think your attitude will achieve besides how warm and fuzzy u feel? becomeing a registered breeder once upon a time was to continue the breed not extinct it from registration like the stumpy tail cattle dog almost ended up.

people do sell on main register, with some breeds it can take longer to build up trust, what with all the "oodles" being bred all over the place. People have to appreciate that most breeders are trying to do the right thing by the breed and by their dogs. If I had a breed that was being exploited just to make money I be very wary, very wary indeed. except nobody wanting to breed oodles would care a shit about papers, you cant register x breds so refusing to let people have main registration is no excuse that it would prevent x breeding. what it does do is prevent your kennel being continued into the future which as so many forget was one of the reasons to become a breeder. to pass you breed on to future generations. the new rule that ethical means to breed only for yourself negates the passing on the batton. the new rule that ethical means only those who show are ethical means those who only ever wanted a lovely pet good enough to continue the breed is automatically cataloged unethical and not entitled to ask for main registration. and as for the show lot and the example of the pup whose teeth went out? just what on earth do they really think they achieved apart from making sure that is another breeder who decides no how no way will they ever sell another pup on main register and thus become another of the growing list of dead end kennels. which is exactly what they intend. we dont need peta to destroy the pedigree dog. there are enough in the membership doing an excellent job already. that dog in question was a beautiful example of his breed in every other point. even the teeth were at worst a fraction past level bite despite being bent forward instead of comming up straight as they had with the puppy teeth. my suspicion was the puppy teeth hadnt fallen out and pushed the new teeth forward and past them, the roots were correctly placed as was the lover jaw. ive seen some dreadfull examples of the breed with AustCH in front of their name because their owners went to enough shows to emass enough points anyway. there is no such thing as the perfect specimin once upon a time you selected for the best and hoped for the best and once upon a time it was known and acknowledged many dogs that were not good enough to grace a showring let alone win could still contributed to the future of the breed. no with the warped and ignorant that grace our show world now made so patentialy obvious by the afore mentioned dog. if any breeder is foolish to let go a breeding quality dog even if it was an apparently spot on in every department as an 8 week old pup, if it matures with any fault whatsoever that could preclude it from receiving a challenge every time. remember that pup once it had its adult teeth was still being awarded challenges. just some judges refuse and nil awarded do to the teeth. if this really is the new order that the people who show will tell the owner to return the dog and demand their money back and will themselves warn the breeder.. comply or you will never be any but mud if you do not. with such pressure being brought to bear and such a impossible guarantee being said to have made by issuing main register with a pup who needs peta to shut down the breeding of pedigree dogs? toy breeds were created to be pets. yet now its unethical to breed and sell them for pets?? and if like we once did main registered any pup we thought was a good advertisement for our kennel whether we thought it was show or breeding quality. we had that right. now the new order has changed the bar. no such thing as a breeding quality now? most of the problem is so few new members even know there is such a thing as breeding quality does not mean show quality yet can still produce better than their precious one with Aust Ch in front of its name, such is the ignorance today. is that irish or what?

because they can't get a dog on main register?? just take a gander at the pups for sale adds on dogzonline just about all state pets only or limit register. your a sitting duck for puppy farmer branding if you say you will sell with main register. and considering what happens if a newbie or even the example of an old hand in another breed decided to try a different one, after advice from fellow exhibitors and judges on which pup to choose as show quality, yes it was taken to a show for all to examine all the puppys she was looking at, they choose the pup, the mug breeder assured she knows the perfect pup can change as it matures so ends up issued with a main register pup that was winning challenges before its adult teeth came in.. puppy teeth perfect...adults the bottoms for some weird reason came in slanting forward. it was still winning some challenges n nil awarded in others because of the new teeth. the judges and those exhibiting told her the main registratin is a guarantee the dog is sufficient quality to become a champion and demand your money back. i know who the exhibitors and the judge who told her that. even better one of the judges who helped select the pup was the one who told her to get her money back. as well advised the breeder that to preserve even a shred of reputation to return the money and take the now dog back. so what idiot is going to sell anything on main register anymore? as i know my self, if you cannot guarantee how your own child will turn out.. how can you guarantee a puppy will? stupidity or arrogance? which is the problem?

you dont have to be small to be ethical... you have to realise curling up into a ball and saying "im ethical" isnt going to save you from the cull. this is to eliminate pedigree dogs and by the mass culling of membership and numbers bred already achieved, its right on track.. when will the precious ever realise that everyone is in for the chop?

isnt it wonderful when you actually HAVE the camera when you need it.. keep them comming please...

The dogs were only mildly interested in the Beagle and there was a lot of play behaviour shown. A dog in high prey or aggression drive will normally be more focussed on the 'victim' and more apt to dispatch it. The Beagle was vocalising in fear when the brindle dog apporached for play. This all indicates to me that it's doubtful there was an attack on the Beagle. Sure the Beagle was frightened, and so were the men in the house, but I don't think is reason enough to shoot. I disagree that the dogs' actions are not defendable. It all seems fairly normal and dog-like to me. considering all the attacks and kills that have been in the press by loose dogs on the street. That beagle certainly was in terror. no one should have to be calling for help as strays do as they please in your yard and can kill or maim your dog in its own yard. in the country they would be shot... when will people ever get it through their heads...their dog...stays home. if it is roaming the streets thats how killer packs form. i dont care how many shots it took at least it wont be running loose to headline another day. hope the poor beagle is ok. whats with you lot. the baddie here is the owner of those dogs not the officer, not the home owner. if more roaming dogs were dispatched on the spot maybe more people might make the effort to keep their dogs at home.. face facts,, how many thousands of dogs lose their lives under someone car because their owner didnt keep it in. I had a darling girl who decided it was fun to get out and go for a roam.. she got out one night, no idea how even to this day,(nobody else ever got out) and we found her beside the road dead. heartbreak all round but that is the price you pay when things go wrong even if its not your fault. there are so many around here that have million dollar homes, every luxury available yet they dont fence their 'guard' dog in. why should i have to wake up to my dogs screaming in terror and hiding from a huge rottweiler or shepherd thats big and strong enough to scale the fence (one has twice) and decided to dispach my male dog. fortunately he crawled under a cupboard on the verandah and the dammed thing couldnt reach him before i reached it. no i didnt shoot it althought the temptation was sooo much. think all up I took it to the pound 3 times before the fines became too annoying and they left him there...but they didnt put up a fence. we shouldnt have to be worrying about dogs trying to break into your home...they shouldnt be roaming. full stop. ive seen my neighbours sheep standing all confused with its entire skin removed and half its ruman hanging out of her side, his goats also sides torn and bowel showing though the gaping wounds. they were stitched up and saved but the poor ewe had not chance. get some perspective... roaming dogs are potentially dangerous to anything they find a potential game. ask anyone who has had their pet torn apart before their eyes what they think is reasonable force?

when you turn it round and the odds of a blind puppy for example is only 1 in 16 to 32 puppies.. you can still like that litter of all lilic's get the whole shebang in one hit... breed 100, from the parents, better 200 and the number of normals will be correct to the number of blind. but who wants to play that game what so few get their heads around, percentages are a numbers game... nature doesnt play by the rules in small numbers.

what so many do not seem to understand that percentages only work when you are dealing with numbers...large numbers the bigger the better before they even out to what the charts tell you can happen. every conception a a new throw of the same dice i had a pair of show rex rabbits. they were both agouti but they both had one parent blue the other parent chocolate so because neither of their parents carried the other recessive they all turned out agouti. put two of the agouti's (n no different parents for the inbreeding terrorists) produced 4 lilac agouti rex... stunning forget the table the chances of one was either 16% or 32% which are long odds in any book so anyone who saw that litter could be tempted to think hey repeat that for another lot.. with the same result. except in actuality you can expect over the full numbers, for every one lilic you would have 16 to 32 not being lilac, thats an awful lot of bunnies not the colour you want.

probably as much as a same sex litter. and yes i had the same thought... u bred them you take care of it.

what I do not understand is as a pedigree breeder why was it turned around that to be "ethical" you only bred for yourself? ie dead end kennels. ive had pedigree dogs since 1970's and we thought we were not only continuing the lines ourselves but puppies sold to pet homes, might interest some into becoming members themselves...no one lives forever, so if you do not pass the baton, you have become a dead end breeder. now that is being consisered as proving how ethical you are? in those days you sold any puppy you considered a good representative of your kennel on main register... it was not a guarantee it was going to be a champion. it was that you thought this puppy looked like it would be a dog to be proud of and capable of being another generation to the next of its breed. now its a bloody mess of precious, ethicals and I NEVER sell on main register, some even desex puppies sold on main register as the buyer wants main but insistes "only as a pet' so the breeder makes sure it can only be. I know because i met a lady who does exactly that. far as i am concerned if the committe of OUR registry is going to hand over records to u know who must not be named. since when do you put the lion in charge of the zebras? only fairly recently i sold a main register puppy to a long time showi of a different breed... yes know puppies can change.. only want one to show i understand they can change, blah blah blah.. had them assessed by judges and showi friends before making a selection... puppy won many challenges , that is until new teeth came in...nothing else was changed.. visually a stunning dog. the bottom teeth came in slanted forward instead of the same angle as before with the puppy teeth top teeth still nice and straight soo now have lost the scissor bite. still won some challanges but nil awarded twice. even the judge who picked the puppy and the fellow exhibitors as well told her she is entitled to her money back as the main register papers were a guarantee the puppy bought was going to be show quality. was even told by them return the money or you reputation will be ruined. returned the money but hey,, what reputation. now im the bitch who sold a crap puppy. even better, a happy customer with her "pet" went to a show with it. gets told by one, this pups a xbred, sends the victum to two others for assessment, and both agree, yes its a xbred. get your money back. (baby is in the leggy ugg stage) when they learn the name of the breeder rings moi up, yes have it here, obviously theres been a mismating,,, has a neighbours got in? as which puppy this is under discussion? gets its name... guess what folks. the two on the phone talking me to me on speaker? one bred the dam and the other bred the sire? so just who is breeding the x breds then? the original party to sent the victum to the two new victum's knew as had perused the pedigree before sending off for the 2nd and 3rd opinions who didnt ask to see said papers. they walked into that one like lambs to the slaughter this is the distructivness thats going on every day, week in year out. fortunately for the sanity of that puppy owner i had them come and see mum, dad and a sibling again, so satisfied it was just in its horror growth stages. but this whiteanting and backstabbing is playing right into the hands of the must not be named.

Nope, in NSW it is the responsibility of the OLD owner to lodge the change of ownership paperwork, and you can get fined for not doing it. ETA: Link - Section 31 No I meant papers with the CC not council regs All of my chips are in the new owners names but my CC regos there would be a hell of a lot still in my name because we cant change them over on their records. They've got us right where thery want us and we have nowhere to hide, who'd have thought this day would come. Ohh but wait, the good one's will have nothing to fear. Now in NSW it's compulsary for us to chip before a litter will be registered. We've played right into their hands and no we have nowhere to run. Either way we are up poo creek, they can either bust us via council rego's, which of course those of us doing the right thing have all of our dogs registered and chipped or they'll simply pull our ANKC owner details and we'll be done that way. Kiss goodbye the ethical, registered ANKC breeder, soon there will be nothing left but commercial breeders and the BYBers that fly under the radar exactly. AND it was evident that was on the agenda 20 years ago... now its arrived. why i could see it and all the precious ethicals couldnt see they were being divided and next to the slaugher i could never understand. until last night.. watching sbs and the second world war with the slaughter of the jews? where i worked as a teen one of my friends could speak 8 languages.. he learned so many in his parents travels to escape the program.. yes he is jewish. last night i twigged... he had told me how his family had been led to accept this new law, then this new, then this new and all his family and friends were being gently herded to their deaths. except his parents saw the danger signs and realised they were being set up for something but at the time not exactly what. they did a runner and didnt end up in the death camps but the migration to stay out of reach took them around the world. they survived soo many millions didnt.. weres the difference?

thanks,, then it confuses things even more when a metal "gene" like the tomahawk is in some mixes too?

the tricolour would have tan dots above its eyes, on the muzzle and feet, and tan around the anus. imagine a black/blue/chocolate/lilac and tan doberman with any white markings like the BC's have... n imagine the long coat too

No showing or breeding, agility, obedience, means that no adults or puppies need to find a home either, it's not just the racing industry that has unwanted or excess dogs, although they probably contribute a large %. I can see that there has been a shift by some owners/trainers, towards having less dogs, breeding less puppies and putting 100% into the few dogs that they have. There is still the old school of breed masses of them and hope to god that one can run and the rest are destroyed and I really don't like that. I wonder if the dog in the OP had not been a Greyhound, if people would have objected in the same way to it being euth'd. I very much doubt that Lucy was the only unwanted dog to die at that clinic today I can't speak for anyone else, but I would have been devastated regardless. I've also met trainers who keep few dogs and really put their all into them. My next door neighbour has his now retired racing Grey whom he loves and is very proud of . Either way, I'm not judging the woman's actions. I'm just so very sad for the loss of a young life. Admittedly, this is the first time I've ever seen anything like this first hand, so maybe I'm a bit sensitive. the number of people who chose to euth perfectly healthy dogs because they no longer want them is simply staggering. my daughter did work study at a vets.. she was apalled and the vets said it broke their hearts. but at least they didnt dump them in the streets. but the anguish of many who have to actully do the deed isnt any less one was brought in because she didnt match the new furniture.

once upon a time... long long ago. there was only one register...main register. on that went any puppy the breeder considered was of sufficient quality to bear their kennel name. then membership began falling.. not to mention the Canine Council in its wisdom decided to waste a few hundred thousand dollars denying a board member access to records she wished to examine as i understand it. on the grounds that she was wasting staff time? considering how much money they wasted and i understand lost.. it would have been cheaper to hire her a full time helper to riffle though whatever she wanted to see. all of a sudden,, we have a new rule... every live pup must be registered. regardless of whether you want anyone to know THAT came from your kennel. anyone that tells you their dogs have never produced a puppy they want to hide behind the house is either lying or incredibly blessed. the limit register has one purpose only... $$$$$$$$ it has nothing to do with defining ethical from unethical ... even if its acceptance was bought by you either agree or your self convicted. you dont only put the rubbish on limit. you dont just put the best of the litter on main. you limit any who you sell as a pet. ive sold many pets heaps better than ones that became champions.. there are far more people wanting a pet to love for its lifetime than there are people who want to go to shows and win a ribbon. where is your best advertisments of your dogs? at a show where on the main only the showies are? or out there mixing with everyone who loves their dogs and loving hearing someone ask. "WOW where did you get that dog" letting people think only non show quality go on limit is an insult to thousands of superb pet puppies.

Interesting turn of phrase, Asal :laugh: Cataracts can happen in even the best lines where the problem has not been seen before and has apparently been recorded in more than 75 breeds of dog, so why would crossbred dogs be immune? There is also the problem of feeding puppies with artificial milk formulae. Not enough has ever been said about this - for commercial reasons I suspect. An ingredient called arginine is the devil, and I am not too sure whether it is too little or too much arginine that is the problem, but this has definitely been linked with juvenile cataracts that can affect any breed of pup, and also kittens. Some say that formulas are now improved, but I remain of the opinion that no pup should be given formula unless there is no natural mothers milk available in the first few weeks. Imho, pups should not be given formulae after 4 weeks - there are plenty of calcium-rich natural foods and puppy foods that can be given at that age. No pup should be given milk once it is weaned. In the wild, once an animal is weaned it must drink from the pond or the creek. Souff cant take the credit my friend niky says to anyone who cant cope,,, here have a cement shake and I lend u my flame suit. laughed my head off the first time i heard it...but soo accurate

Who sustained the emotional damage? The Bichon is probably enjoying its short back and sides :laugh: ive seen some poodles with such dreadful "pet" clips i can see the dog is cringing and begging mummy to take me home im embarrassed... Yep... I know those people, with their weird requests. Ive asked for photos to compare to to make sure they reeeeaaallly want their dog groomed in what strange way they ask... then i usually end with... "please dont tell people *I* did that..." :rofl: good one. no in some of these cases. its because the groomers dont care about doing a good job. just a quick job. ie. same clippers all over so the legs look like pipe stems instead of nice pants. and the absolute HORRIBLE run the clippers above the eyes and chomp off almost half and inch AND then make the pom pom on the head out of what little is left. they look permantly startled. when i had my boy people would take one look and ask WHERE did you get yours done. I ended up with at times a dozen 'clients' begging to 'please do mine" and i learned from a book although while i was learning, my poor dog spent large amounts of time refusing to go out in public.....he knew when id muffed it and he didnt have a mirror. he took his cue from people laughing at him...and how he knew it wasnt "ooo how cute is that" search me... but he did.

well the symptoms are sure not like that in stagger pup. she was the worst of the three puppies born and all were breech and all were apparently stillborn and resitated.... the other two were a little unstable, enough to be noticable as diffenerent from a normal pup. I saw the same thing in my friends baby. he was finally delivered by ceaser after the doctors decided he was dying due to the placenta beginning to detach and by the time he was born appeared dead and like the puppies finally resusitated. he was 6 months older than my baby and so he was 10 months when she was 4 months and the difference in the mobilty of the two children was amazing.. he would just lay and with one finger try to move the bits on the board and quite uncordinated. mine could use every thing on the board and was trying to sit up and check out the world. he just lay on his tum as if half drugged. she said the doctors said he had been slightly brain damaged. I know it didnt take me long to realise something was not normal with him. he did improve in his motor skills although walking and talking and learning was almost a year behind mine as for his abilty to bite.....

Who sustained the emotional damage? The Bichon is probably enjoying its short back and sides :laugh: ive seen some poodles with such dreadful "pet" clips i can see the dog is cringing and begging mummy to take me home im embarrassed...

Tell me more about this!! This litter is just full of misfits, and one of the surviving puppies is not walking normally. Very cute, comes up to you, says hi, plays with toys, plays with brother, eats, etc, but something is not right. His balance seems to be off. I did revive this puppy when he was born. if he has survived to this stage thats all he will be...it doesnt get worse. have a talk to your vet about it. the really affected ones will wake up from a sleep, go to jump up and run with the others and so uncordinated they can even flip over, or the ones look like its their first day on a ship at sea. once they realise...hey i have to work at this, they concentrate and the balance at walk, run whatever gets at times to normal. although the bad ones have to remember each time they wake up from sleep we had one of that degree a friend had that was a breech and she lived a happy if very noticbly different way of going to 14. so it didnt affect her longlivity.

I think thats why the Genie in every movie always gets the wishes wrong...the constant reminder...be careful what you wish for. I am so sorry to hear of you darling foal. we just lost a much anticipated little girl. liver chestnut with the most perfect 6 on her forehead instead of a star. actually its not me who lost her. i loaned to mare to a friend already in foal, and im just devasted for her. she sat up all night, thought nope not going to have it.. went inside had breakki and came out to find the filly already born and instead of trying to get up was simply galloping on the spot. although it was obvious she had been up because the pads were gone from her hind feet and partialy from her front feet. she did sit up and when helped stand up and walk but would get too tired to stay up long enough to nurse so the vet tube fed her and seemed to be getting stronger then died in her sleep. my suspicion was she came breech and oxygone deprived, had it happen once decades ago and although i did save him it took some super human efforts to get all the fluid out of his lungs and breathing before brain damage set in. ive seen it in puppies too..work like crazy to resusitate them then when they are old enough to walk they are what we called stagger puppies. the vet said it happens in puppies that survive distemper as well. not just oxygen deprived at birth.

Three questions, When you say NBT x NBT getting normal sized litters, were they DNA tested as NBT Carrier - otherwise it could just be that some of these dogs were actually tailed dogs who were docked ? For example most of the imports from USA could easily be full tailed dogs - and i do find it somewhat a strange coincidence that soooo many full bob dogs happen to be in the shows....? Is a half tail or 3/4 tail still considered a NBT ? Have you seen any DNA results of a dog showing as NBT Affected ? (I have only seen NBT Carrier, even with a few being dogs with virtually bobs) in australia there is the stumpy tailed cattledog AND what is referred to as the tomahawk stumpy.....(removed by tomahawk/axe) remember folks when you are dealing with a x or y gene...have NBT gene, short tail. dont have NBT gene, long tail. (do i have it right ?) same percentages as for the sex gene...n guess what? ive had litters of 7 and 8 ALL THE ONE SEX. so if the NBT is in both dogs , NBT/clear to NBT/clear and NBT/NBT is lethal as suspected you can get no puppies at all or none with NBT eg all tailed puppies, either every conception is a SEPERATE THROW OF THE DICE.. HAVE TO KEEP remembering that folks. so you have "tomahawk's" in the aussie shepherds too then :laugh:

and honestly take a cement shake some of you. friend used a very good dog of her breed. multi champion and all that. only to discover when she had her pups tested every one of them had one gene for pra. magnificant pups. magnificant sire, his owner is pretty ancient and didnt even know there was a test for pra. and he meant it. so for goodness sake belt up on the crap that only puppy farms have deletrious genes. some of the best dogs ive drooled over have a pra B score. are u supposed to always throw the baby out with the bathwater and i gather there are two breeds involved to boot ie Lab and retriever.... surely anyone with half a brain would be totally believing the garden gnome and this litter would have to be perfect........hybrid vigour and all that surely? shit happens even in reputable breeders dogs genes. this attributing anything wrong solely to 'PUPPY FARMERS' is you are forgetting when one does show up and you bred it... its just LABLED YOU a puppy farmer if you really do believe that....(well to me) crapola.

certainly did and was wondering whats causing that? it was moving its eyes very strangly too.

Absolutely right, Souff before they wasted all that time writing laws they dont stand by. that ws the (unwritten) rule