Protective But Not Aggressive Breeds

[cramet]

ppd and security dogs are trained using prey also it not until the dog has devoloped enough and assessed to handle using a little defence AKA civil work that it will happen

a lot of methods used in schutzhund are the same for PPD and security but once you get to a certin level of trianing it becomes like a fork in the road

for security i need to take the dog in this direction and sch i need to go in that direction

and on the flip side if you are confident enough as a handler and have a good trainer and training director at the club it is possibul do both

with out checking iam not sure if the BRT is on the list

if its not it is still wurth going down to the club and talking to the training director about joining as some clubs will still train diff breed

but the down side is you may not be able to do national or state tital (spl) just club trials

so dont rule out not having a go with it

[moosmum]

Yes the dog has to be purebred and only some breeds can participate.

Airedale

Boxer

Belgian Shepherd Dog

(Groenendael, Laekenois, Malinois, Tervueren)

Dobermann

German Shepherd Dog

Giant Schnauzer

Rottweiler

Thanks Kavik,

That counts me out then but I can still have fun training on my own.Would have been nice to have that expert help though.

More questions if anyone can help:

My son is doing security training with the goal of k9 later and possibly training our own dogs eventualy.

How does he go about finding suitably qualified training for that?

Is it going to be terribly expensive to get that training?

[Kavik]

ppd and security dogs are trained using prey also it not until the dog has devoloped enough and assessed to handle using a little defence AKA civil work that it will happen

a lot of methods used in schutzhund are the same for PPD and security but once you get to a certin level of trianing it becomes like a fork in the road

for security i need to take the dog in this direction and sch i need to go in that direction

and on the flip side if you are confident enough as a handler and have a good trainer and training director at the club it is possibul do both

with out checking iam not sure if the BRT is on the list

if its not it is still wurth going down to the club and talking to the training director about joining as some clubs will still train diff breed

but the down side is you may not be able to do national or state tital (spl) just club trials

so dont rule out not having a go with it

Hi Nathan

Yes that is what I was trying to say, sometimes it is hard to be as clear when chasing a toddler

[cramet]

lol

i know that feeling

i was just hoping not to come across eather too strong of cut u off

[Kristina]

I haven't read all the posts, don't have time right now. I just want to add that for a dog to be protective it needs good breeding. Sadly i wouldn't recommend any show lines, they might as well be cavaliers that also can't walk properly. Working lines are better all round, but again it depends on where they come from. Any person can start breeding working lines, but it doesn't mean they'll stay true to form. So you need to pick a good breeder and they're hard to find these days.

As for teaching the dog to bark on command isn't enough. If you dog was doing barking happily, how would that intimidate anyone? Most people are getting smarter with dog behaviour or maybe they're just too dumb and ignore the dog. The dog needs to back up his bark, no bluffing will do it.

I know of a dog, my boys dad actually, he is a working boy, he's now working as a security dog. He was working in a busy place in frankston and had many many idiots come up to him, no matter what the dog was doing or what they were told, they approached. This dog is not one you want to approach, so the idiots that did ended up getting their skin ripped. The actual bite finally made those back off, some needed just to see the dog was serious.

Basically if you're going to be in a situation where you might be in danger, then you want a dog that will stand his ground and not back down no matter what.

My boy is a funny dog, he's just over 2yrs old and when you turn him on he's very playful looking, he'll bite etc, but when you start to fight him and hit, etc, he doesn't run away, he becames very mean and stands his ground all the more. There's not many dogs out there that will take a beating and still attack. I've seen heaps in training that put on a good show, but you use too much defence, they back off. I personally wouldn't want a dog like that, and that's not what a shepherd should do. They were bred to stand their ground not run at first site of danger.

Any dog will bark at noise in their yard, my pug used to, but you approach and she'd lick you to death. Barking just isn't enough most times.

[Smartypaws]

ppd and security dogs are trained using prey also it not until the dog has devoloped enough and assessed to handle using a little defence AKA civil work that it will happen

a lot of methods used in schutzhund are the same for PPD and security but once you get to a certin level of trianing it becomes like a fork in the road

for security i need to take the dog in this direction and sch i need to go in that direction

and on the flip side if you are confident enough as a handler and have a good trainer and training director at the club it is possibul do both

with out checking iam not sure if the BRT is on the list

if its not it is still wurth going down to the club and talking to the training director about joining as some clubs will still train diff breed

but the down side is you may not be able to do national or state tital (spl) just club trials

so dont rule out not having a go with it

OK....so another question....Is there a difference between Shutzhund and IPO? :D

[casowner]

Last night I had a fellow DOLer (whom I had never met personally before) come over with her partner late at night to see our Christmas lights. I had gotten my partner to put my CASD inside as he was not overally appreciative of all of the cars stopping in front of our property. I took my guests up to the front of the house to show them Jake, my OH opened the door and I held him by the collar, he proceeded to growl and hold the DOLer guest by the pants. The whole time he was calm, alert and very reading to move forward with protecting his property, he did not grab skin just held clothing I believe, now this incident has kept me up all night. The main reason is my first instinct once I removed his teeth from her pants was to smack him, something which I have NEVER done, he didn't flinch, he simply maintained eye contact with my guest. he was then put back inside. I am more disappointed in my reaction than the situation hence my lack of sleep.

When my guests left I sat down and had a good review of what had happened, my faults and what the reasons were. My conclusions were very basic - Jake is a flock guardian, he has been bred to protect his home, it was late at night, my guests were wearing dark clothing, I was alone and there were two people, I was holding his collar not a lead, he does not like being inside when his territory is outside, my guests had their dogs in the car and he could scent them, he had been inside with my OH and young son and had already been in a high drive mood from earlier in the evening with other cars stopping. It all came down to he was protecting his territory, but there was no excuse or real threat as I saw it, he clearly thought differently. Jake is generally a very calm, stoic and social boy but I am always very aware that under this is his true self and after this I have absolute certainty that he would defend his territory from any threat.

Once my guests left he scented the property where we had been and has set "camp" between the front gate and the gate to the kangaroo enclosure. This experience however brief has reintensified my belief that you can never become complacent (which I never am) with dogs and percieved threats that may occur. I was, and am severely embarassed by this incident, more so due to my smacking of him, and it was a smack, not a hit. The reason for this post is to show that owners of protective breeds need to be vigilant and responsible when they own them, these breeds are not a status symbol they require an enormous amount of training and understanding of their needs. I believe I am a very responsible custodian of my chosen breed and even small lapses such as last night can occur.

[moosmum]

Last night I had a fellow DOLer (whom I had never met personally before) come over with her partner late at night to see our Christmas lights. I had gotten my partner to put my CASD inside as he was not overally appreciative of all of the cars stopping in front of our property. I took my guests up to the front of the house to show them Jake, my OH opened the door and I held him by the collar, he proceeded to growl and hold the DOLer guest by the pants. The whole time he was calm, alert and very reading to move forward with protecting his property, he did not grab skin just held clothing I believe, now this incident has kept me up all night. The main reason is my first instinct once I removed his teeth from her pants was to smack him, something which I have NEVER done, he didn't flinch, he simply maintained eye contact with my guest. he was then put back inside. I am more disappointed in my reaction than the situation hence my lack of sleep.

When my guests left I sat down and had a good review of what had happened, my faults and what the reasons were. My conclusions were very basic - Jake is a flock guardian, he has been bred to protect his home, it was late at night, my guests were wearing dark clothing, I was alone and there were two people, I was holding his collar not a lead, he does not like being inside when his territory is outside, my guests had their dogs in the car and he could scent them, he had been inside with my OH and young son and had already been in a high drive mood from earlier in the evening with other cars stopping. It all came down to he was protecting his territory, but there was no excuse or real threat as I saw it, he clearly thought differently. Jake is generally a very calm, stoic and social boy but I am always very aware that under this is his true self and after this I have absolute certainty that he would defend his territory from any threat.

Once my guests left he scented the property where we had been and has set "camp" between the front gate and the gate to the kangaroo enclosure. This experience however brief has reintensified my belief that you can never become complacent (which I never am) with dogs and percieved threats that may occur. I was, and am severely embarassed by this incident, more so due to my smacking of him, and it was a smack, not a hit. The reason for this post is to show that owners of protective breeds need to be vigilant and responsible when they own them, these breeds are not a status symbol they require an enormous amount of training and understanding of their needs. I believe I am a very responsible custodian of my chosen breed and even small lapses such as last night can occur.

Totaly agree.

My first dog that got me into P.P dogs was a collie cross.He went every where with my family,adopted his own cat,went in parades for the local R.S.P.C.A and was known all over town (In those days things were more relaxed.He used to treat the Dog pound van as his taxi home.They would pick him up where there was a bitch in season,open the door as say "Time to go home Chimo" and he would hop in for a lift home. He tuned up at my old school when I had switched to a new one.my friends piled their bags at the back of the room and he "hid" behind them the whole day from class to class.

A real life Lassie!

We took him camping at our old farm house,a group of 7 between 7 and 17 yrs.and a little brother.Two of the girls lived just up the road and their mum and big sister thought it would be fun to scare us in the night.

The older girl sneaked up to the house and climbed on the roof,running back and forth.

the house was full of screeming kids.I tried to get out to see who it was,but even knowing it was likely a joker did not make me brave enough to go through the door with foot steps above my head.

I looked for the dog,thinking "where is he when you need him." He was running around the house about 50 yards away where he could see the culprit.

I went back in to see the girl enter the house from another door,laughing at how she had us all screaming and turned around just in time to see Chimo fly in the 2nd door and literaly caught him by the collar in mid air as he flew for her throat.

Luckily he calmed imediatly when he realised we were all now laughing but if I had not been vigilant it could have been very nasty.

I had this dog from age 11 till 27 and he taught me a lot. I still cry over his loss and I bet there are a lot of people in the that town who still remember him.You could write a book on him.I used to tell people I could get him to do anything they asked within 10 minutes.

But you need to know your dog and protect him from mistakes,so it goes both ways.

[cramet]

i dont do IPO or sch but i know there is a suttle diffence but not much hopefully some one that competes can fill in the blanks

from my understanding of the the 2 are

IPO is run buy the FCI

sch is run by the SV

[Diablo]

'Kristina' date='8th Dec 2009 - 04:30 PM' post='4175900']

Basically if you're going to be in a situation where you might be in danger, then you want a dog that will stand his ground and not back down no matter what.

My boy is a funny dog, he's just over 2yrs old and when you turn him on he's very playful looking, he'll bite etc, but when you start to fight him and hit, etc, he doesn't run away, he becames very mean and stands his ground all the more. There's not many dogs out there that will take a beating and still attack. I've seen heaps in training that put on a good show, but you use too much defence, they back off. I personally wouldn't want a dog like that, and that's not what a shepherd should do. They were bred to stand their ground not run at first site of danger.

Any dog will bark at noise in their yard, my pug used to, but you approach and she'd lick you to death. Barking just isn't enough most times.

Furthermore to what Kristina has mentioned, people will tell us about their own dog or a dog they know/knew supposed to be a terrific protection dog that will step up to the plate in defence if a threat arises and in the mean time, possess all the magical traits of a therapy dog from a childrens hospital, loves everyone, welcomes strangers in and plays with all the neighbourhood kids. What a super dog that we would all love to own, but the truth is, these dogs rarely exist if at all.

Dogs with the fighting courage that will defend and bite for real are not easy dogs to handle and takes experience to train and mould them to behave around strangers and in a public place. It takes time and consistant training to create a true protection dog which is not an easy process to attain. There are no untrained natural protectors that possess the qualities that some people lead us to believe. The love everyone friendly happy pet will run away in the crunch, and the natural protector untrained will be locked away not trusting what and when he may consider to be a threat and react unpredictably.

There may be these magical super dogs that you hear of, but I am yet to ever see or find one in 27 years of owning and training GSD's.

Edited December 9, 2009 by Diablo

[moosmum]

'Kristina' date='8th Dec 2009 - 04:30 PM' post='4175900']

Basically if you're going to be in a situation where you might be in danger, then you want a dog that will stand his ground and not back down no matter what.

My boy is a funny dog, he's just over 2yrs old and when you turn him on he's very playful looking, he'll bite etc, but when you start to fight him and hit, etc, he doesn't run away, he becames very mean and stands his ground all the more. There's not many dogs out there that will take a beating and still attack. I've seen heaps in training that put on a good show, but you use too much defence, they back off. I personally wouldn't want a dog like that, and that's not what a shepherd should do. They were bred to stand their ground not run at first site of danger.

Any dog will bark at noise in their yard, my pug used to, but you approach and she'd lick you to death. Barking just isn't enough most times.

Furthermore to what Kristina has mentioned, people will tell us about their own dog or a dog they know/knew supposed to be a terrific protection dog that will step up to the plate in defence if a threat arises and in the mean time, possess all the magical traits of a therapy dog from a childrens hospital, loves everyone, welcomes strangers in and plays with all the neighbourhood kids. What a super dog that we would all love to own, but the truth is, these dogs rarely exist if at all.

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ADDED:

I resent your implication that I am either out right lying,or deluding myself as I am sure do many others who have owned such dogs.They are clearly increasingly rare in a society for which dogs are becoming irrelelevent.The true working breeds are increasingly being bred for only their specialised fields with different criteria used to assess their suitability rather than over-all intelligence as it relates to a broad adaptability in a human society.

The fact that there are so many such stories,many well documented strongly indicates the exsistence of such dogs. In earlier years when dogs were much more a welcome part of our society and more truely companions these stories were very common.More so amoung working breeds where intelligence and independent judgment is valued.Most dogs today are given little chance to show any real adaptability and it remains undeveloped in most.

No one is claiming their dogs are faultless or perfect.Just giving an indication of their versatility.I am happy to list my dogs faults too.

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Dogs with the fighting courage that will defend and bite for real are not easy dogs to handle and takes experience to train and mould them to behave around strangers and in a public place. It takes time and consistant training to create a true protection dog which is not an easy process to attain. There are no untrained natural protectors that possess the qualities that some people lead us to believe. The love everyone friendly happy pet will run away in the crunch, and the natural protector untrained will be locked away not trusting what and when he may consider to be a threat and react unpredictably.

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Added:

While I do agree with the sentiments of the above statement in general,how can you say there are "NO untrained natural protectors that that possess the qualities some people would have us believe."

That is a very broad statement. What qualities do you doubt they may have?

What is your definition of a natural protector?

I don't promote the idea of my dogs as happy love every one pets.They are companions expected to behave in a variety of situations.Their feature is that they love my company and our familys enough to behave in order to get it most often,but they also learn there are rules outsiders are expected to adhere to.The pack is their security,they know their place in it like to keep it that way.

I totaly agree that an untrained dog (no matter what his "purpose") is not going to have the reliability to do his job any where near as effectivly as a dog with the needed instincts trained for his job.However a natural and clearly demonstrated instinct gives a good indication that a dog may try to the best of his abilities when called upon.How well he is able to do this is obviously going to depend on how well prepared he is in his understanding of what is required,and what is realy happening around him and his confidence in that situation.

Apart from people working in security or related fields,most people don't seriously expect they will need the level of protection you are talking about.A dog that gets riled with torment or punishment is clearly undesirable in a family situation or in public.Nor should such a dog be there with out a well trained and concientious handler.

A reasonably courageous and serious looking attempt should do the job in most situations.

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There may be these magical super dogs that you hear of, but I am yet to ever see or find one in 27 years of owning and training GSD's.

I am sorry that you believe you have never encountered such a dog.It is an experience to be cherished.I have encountered several in my 40 years working with dogs though only one could be classed as truely out standing.(untill recently).Magical super dog? Your words,not mine.

I do think though that such dogs may not be easily detected or recognised in by the same criteria used to assess a dog purely for P.P work alone.His priorities and drives must be different,and they often will not work as well for a handler out side their pack,even resenting them.Adaptable,reasoning intelligence and loyalty to a specific person/group of people with an ability to "read" people seems a common thread.

I had a Doberman who would run and hide at the sight of a snake.

When out walking with 3 dogs,1 shied away and yelped on stumbling across a snake.The dobe ran and hid.Another grabbed it halfway along its body and the snake coiled round,biting him on the shoulder. The Dobe came back out from hiding,pulled the snake off,then ran and hid again.She overcame her fears enough to be do the job.Her loyalty over came other considerations.

Presenting her with that threat but no real reason to take it on did not show what she was capable of.

Edited December 12, 2009 by moosmum

[Diablo]

Hi Moosmum,

I didn't respond to what you had written, at the time of adding to Kristina's post I hadn't read your post...........I apologise if my post appeared to have contradicted your experiences which wasn't the intention

Dogs are extremely intelligent creatures........one can never know the extent of their abilities good or bad, but many a time have we had discussions about dogs protecting when needed, and many believe that their dog will. Someone had a working line GSD and was attacked by a drunken offender and the dog ran away and deserted them in a time of need???. A GSD is a renowned protection breed that ran away was the basis of the thread.

I can't speak for other breeds, but from my experience with GSD's the natural untrained protectors are generally aggressive towards anything outside of their family/pack, sharp and alert and willing to chase away or attack to eliminate threats which can be towards anything that doesn't belong in their territory. Expose them to a public street or park and the entire area becomes their territory with a natural reaction to chase away anyone who appears giving the perception of wanting to bite everyone and are difficult to control and train to behave for the inexperienced owners. The training of the natural protector is teaching them not to react and behave through extreme obedience conditioning. The softer more friendly GSD's can't be relied upon to react untrained and most will run away if challenged. You certainly know if a GSD is natural protector as most of your training efforts are teaching them not to react........they are a serious handful of dog to control.

Edited December 10, 2009 by Diablo

[moosmum]

Hi Diablo,

Thanks for clearing that up.

As far as I knew no one had set out to breed P.P dogs suited to a more general environment in australia.

We did,after owning the dog mentioned in the earlier post.We tried breed clubs and were told we would not get what we were after.

He was a generaly non con frontational dog,but demonstrated many times his willingness to take on what he judged a real and serious threat.

As you can imagine,such dogs ARE rare and when found are usualy very much loved and not available.

We were even more determined after a very nasty situation in which I was also let down badly.Luckily the police were already chasing the bloke involved so the dog was not needed.He failed miserably.

After many years and set backs ie; suitable dog but wont breed, we finaly found a bitch who fits all our criteria and she HAS proven herself many times over.Since she was given to my son,she was bred to the most suitable male we had found to date for our own dogs since retaining these qualities is very important to us.

We now have a strain that is showing great promise.(Read earlier posts from both myself and Jacqui)

How far we will be able to go with this is doubtfull as finding suitable,responsible and reasonably experienced homes has been hard.Finding dogs to breed to this 2nd generation if that time comes will be harder but I know that while I have these dogs,we will NOT be is a similar situation in our own home again.

I admitt these dogs have not been tested in a situation where they will have to take a beating etc,but their demeanor when in protective mode does not encourage anyone to try their luck,nor have the dogs gone too far when a snarl in the face will do and they have quickly settled when asked.

Edited December 14, 2009 by moosmum

[percyk]

my gsd desexed male was naturally protective in his body language but was not aggressive

he was just super bonded to me

so was my dachshund

i know shelties can be protective ...get keyed up when strangers intrude in the owners space ...wonder if collie roughs would be too?

[huski]

After many years and set backs ie; suitable dog but wont breed, we finaly found a bitch who fits all our criteria and she HAS proven herself many times over.

Moosmum, curious as to how you've tested the dogs to demonstrate that they will 'prove' themselves? what situations would you class the dog as proving themselves?

[moosmum]

After many years and set backs ie; suitable dog but wont breed, we finaly found a bitch who fits all our criteria and she HAS proven herself many times over.

Moosmum, curious as to how you've tested the dogs to demonstrate that they will 'prove' themselves? what situations would you class the dog as proving themselves?

As I mentioned earlier in the thread,the dogs have not been tested in any proffesional sense and I would love the chance to see how far they would go.(in a controlled situation of course)

The bitch we used to get our strain has only shown mild aggression at the farm on one occasion with a visitor yelling at his children.He stayed with us 3 days altogether with no further incidents,and all she did was to growl softly as she approached him.Stopped as soon as he stopped yelling.

She was given to my son as a 17 yo. and he takes her every where with him.He is now 22.She is generaly very placid and easy going,but boys that age will muck around,he has been with her late at night as pubs are emptying and at parties etc.always on a lead.Any one who has lunged at my son,she lunges right back,growling.Put herself between you and any possible aggressor.

Another time when visiting a friend after a late night the boys sat in the lounge to wait for the friend to get up,not realising there was a another boy asleep in a pile of clothes.He sat up suddenly,with the same result.She managed to leap on him since she had no lead indoors,but just snarled and calmed as soon as my son called her.

She has done her warning snarl again when my kids were in an argument with a flat mate who would not stop whatever it was he was doing.After several times being told to "stop it!" my daughter repeated it in an angry voice and the dog again aproached him and snarled.

One of the pups left with the flat mate also defended my son on a visit back.He noticed the dogs has spilled their water and went to re-fill,pushing a Pit bull aside which promptly latched on to his hand.The young dog went the P.B imediately,after the flat mates had compained it would not defend itself from the P.B before that.It will now.

You would have to read back through this thread,(see Jacquis posts.Her dog is not yet a year old)but there are other examples and not all from myself.

Basicaly,they are very gentle good natured dogs in most situations,very loyal and affectionate.they seem learn what the rules are for their families and expect every one to follow them,treating their "pack" as a co-operative unit with us the leaders.

Anything unusual and they let us know.

Vistors are welcome,providing they are escorted into the front gate by a family member.

Another dog; We had an engagement party for another son in town.Lots of visitors staying with us.One the dog was very familiar with wanted to come home early with his kids to put them to bed.I said we may have to come too as I was not sure he would be let in.He said he was sure it would be o.k. As soon as the dog heard the kids she would settle. That exactly what happened,but a second wave of visitors the dog did not know had more trouble.She let them in,after being told it was O.K and to go to bed,but we heard she growled and grumbled the whole time till we got home as if she was not sure he should be letting anyone else in with out us there.

They may not be what a proffesional would class a P.P dog,but they are all we ask and rarely need to be confined,so available should they be needed.

We have never encouraged agression in them,but nor have we disciplined them since we can understand each time why they have reacted as they have.

2nd generation have shown their mothers traits of being very affectionate and trainable with their owners,to different degrees.Will often place themselves between any perceived /possible threat and their owners.

My own girl is very much like her mother,but much sharper.Very quick and very high prey drive.On the farm she has had little chance to show what she might do.I did encourage her once only to show more aggression.Only time I've ever done that.A fellow who rang about pups sounded very sus.He wanted to take a pup home on spec.When I said not on,he asked to look anyway.

I just wanted my girl to show he would not be able to get into the yard or at the pups when we were away.For the 1st time ever she did not settle when I let the bloke into the yard.She allowed it when I told her to, but I had to tie her up because every time the guy moved she would start up again.Turns out the guy wanted a vicious dog any way.We won't let pups go to anyone wanting that,only lifetime partners.I hated the way he handled the pup he held.

She did similar once when my O.H was involved in a argument just out side our yard.I had to put her on a tyre to be sure she did not go through the fence as the raised voices set her off.She stayed nearby though and did not relax her guard till the others left an hour later.

The one time she was exposed to small children for a weekend I thought she may need to be restrained just for her high energy in case she knocked the kids over.She controlled herself very well and did not do her usual 100 ks an hour the whole time the kids were here .

They are least a very least a strong visual and vocal deterant.They are very affectionate,and try to sit on your lap and will press their heads into you for cuddles.Giant mink stoles draped around your shoulders.

PERCYK: My collie would protect,but not sure what sort of collie/X he was.Tri coloured,bigger than a border but more solid than a rough.

Edited December 13, 2009 by moosmum

[Jeff Jones]

Can anyone tell me if the results from Jeff's study have been posted???

Nope, I am still waiting on dolers to work out appropriate times and dates etc. I do not think everyone will go through with it but thanks to the ones who have been actively seeking out the trainers with times and dates. I know one person is booked in for January, I have been away with work for the past month or so but will chase people up over the next week.

[Shakti]

Hi Jeff,

Just wondering if there is any news on how the study went yet?

[Jeff Jones]

2 people have dropped out. the 2 remaining are yet to have there dogs tested.

the trainer had to reschedule the January appointment to March.

[matt13b]

A tough looking dog may be a good visual deterrent to make you a less appealling target and a good "BEWARE OF THE DOG" sign at your home is always a good idea(whether you own a dog or not).

The best defence though is attack, learn self defense. It works for anyone at any age, I recommend Krav Maga.