Advice Needed From Fellow Breeders

[Keltoi]

Hi, Can I please ask what you guys recommend, We breed staffies and have never had any problems with any of our pups. This will be a first three months ago we get advised that a 11 mth old male pup we sold has got entropian, we offered to take the dog back but owner stated that his girlfrriend won't part with the pup so we offered to pay half of the initial surgery only, they agreeded. 4 mths later and he has just had his surgery and we have recieved the bills. This is what I would like your advise on from what all the bills state -December 2009 was the first visit to the vet and he gets diagnosed with parasites, dermatitis and the eyes but surgery can not take place till parasites are gone so 3months and a number of vet bills later before he has his surgery done.

Now all the bills before his surgery are to do with parasites and dermatitis not to mention treats, pet accessories and dog food are also included a few checks of the eyes dye rinse ect at the same time and a bill for stiching the eyes up temporarily till the parasites and dermatitis was clear for the real surgery. So the question I am trying to get to is all the bill prior to initial surgery would you say is the responsibility of the owners because if the dog did not have all the other problems which are no fault of his own his surgery would have been done moths ago and the cost would have been much less.

We are still offering to pay half the initial surgery like agreeded, but I can not see how all the other bills should be included because parasites and dermatitis and all the accessories ect have nothing to do with initial entrropian surgery and any eye cost included in those bills are due to his condition (parasites and dermatitis).

What do you guys think?

and Thank you

The dog in question here got diagnosed at 8 months of age he is now 11 months old. His owners bought him from us as a pup 8 weeks old and he was vaccinated, wormed and micro-chipped and had a full vet check ,Vet stated all pups in good health before they left us for there new homes.

PPS, Finnally got hold of the vet that treated the dog from start (but was not the vet that did the surgery they took him to another vet as she would not do him) this is what she said.

The dog has a skin allergy due to bad diet and conjunctivitis in both eyes ,the allergie was itchy the dog rubbed his eyes so servilely coursing an ulcer in the eye, next vist the vet classes it spastic entropion which means foreign bodies in the eyes (eg grass seeds or sand) (the only reason the vet said genetic is due to the dog been at the age of hormone changes. But Spastic Entropion is not the same as Developed Entropion two different things and her diagnosis was Spastic Entropion.

Now we are just waiting for the vet to email a written letter to state all that she has told me over the phone which she seemed very reluctant to do. so now waiting.

PS I'd like to Thank in advance all who have taken time to give me there advice and opinions. THANK YOU

Edited April 12, 2010 by Keltoi

[Bluefairy]

Poor dog

I agree anything but the actual operation for the eye condition is the responsibility of the owners....how they could of let the poor dog get in that condition is beyond me. I would explain you won't pay for anything but half the surgery for the specified eye condition, ask them for an itemised bill so you know whats in or out. If they give you this then thats ok, but if not then could you ring the vet and ask for the cost of the operation only? Also make sure the bill is from the vet not from them just listing the prices down on a pdf sheet.

BF

[stormie]

What sort of 'parasites' and 'Dermatitis' are we talking? We often operate on dogs and cats with fleas and unless it's really really bad and greatly affecting an animals health, would also operate on a dog that has dermatitis.

I find it strange that surgery was put off because of those things, unless we're talking something that is greatly affecting the health of the dog.

[Keltoi]

What sort of 'parasites' and 'Dermatitis' are we talking? We often operate on dogs and cats with fleas and unless it's really really bad and greatly affecting an animals health, would also operate on a dog that has dermatitis.

I find it strange that surgery was put off because of those things, unless we're talking something that is greatly affecting the health of the dog.

Hi,

Thanks for you time they have stated it was mites and dermatits this dates to the first vet check in Dec 09.

At the moment I am waiting for two different vets that they used to contact me and let me know which one of three Entropion his is classed as, (1st-Deveopement, 2nd-Spastic entropion,or 3rd-cicatricial entropian) as they are all caused by different things.

Again Thank you

[Keltoi]

Poor dog

I agree anything but the actual operation for the eye condition is the responsibility of the owners....how they could of let the poor dog get in that condition is beyond me. I would explain you won't pay for anything but half the surgery for the specified eye condition, ask them for an itemised bill so you know whats in or out. If they give you this then thats ok, but if not then could you ring the vet and ask for the cost of the operation only? Also make sure the bill is from the vet not from them just listing the prices down on a pdf sheet.

BF

Thank you for your imput

[Dogsfevr]

This is why you get all things in writing when they come back,vet report on what the issue is & everyone knows where they stand.

You have done the right thing but dont have a nutual ground expected from both parties

[Red Fox]

My dog had to have eye surgery at 4 months old. His breeder was aware of the problem as soon as we were and immediately offered to pay the full costs for the surgery and follow up meds done under her vet (who is very good). The travel costs, appointments and check-ups up to and after the surgery and the micro-chip and other tests we decided to have done at the time of surgery were all OUR responsibility.

I was more than happy with that decision and would not have asked for any more. After I collected my boy from the surgery I paid my part of the bill (micro-chip, bloods, swab test, toy etc) and the vet knew to put the surgery, antibiotics and eye-cream ONLY onto the breeders account. As it was pre-arranged it was easy and there was no dispute.

Perhaps an itemised bill is a good idea? That way you will be able to seperate the treatment for the eye from everything else. Or maybe the owners gave you the full bill thinking that you would seperate the costs from that anyway

[Dogsfevr]

Yep go through the bill & itemise.

We had 1 puppy owner try & pull a swifty with spaying as it went to our vet as arranged as we where paying,they tried to add a few other items in the hope we would pay.

Obviously this may not be the case but they could have had the bill done in such a manner for surgery only & private only.

Not sure if your local for them but i would pay the vet direct so you get a receipt for payment

[puggy_puggy]

I would want a clarification as to what the actual skin issue was and a full vet history of the consults and treatments. Temporarily stitching his eyes sounds a bit strange.

If it turns out the skin problem was demodex mange then you might consider paying for some of the other treatment as it is thought to be a genetic issue. It is highly advised that parents that have produced puppies with demodex mange should not be mated again. If it turns out to be caused by something else then only pay for the eye treatment.

[♪♫LMBC♫♪]

Did they provide you with an itemised bill? If they didn't, request one. Then just take out the costs of the food, toys etc and contribute only to the things that relate to his eye problem.

It might be just my suspicious nature, but I tend to think they may have gone and spent heaps on the toys etc thinking that they would make you pay half. If that's the case, they are very rude. Actually, it was quite rude for them to give you a bill that included all those other things and expect you to cough up.

[Bilbo Baggins]

I would go for the eye surgery only.

[Steve]

Before I give an answer Id like a time line.

How long after the pup went home was it diagnosed with demodex ?

How long after vaccination? Was there any other meds given such as heartworm meds, what diet was the pup on when it went home?

[dancinbcs]

After receiving a full veterinary report of the eye condition, I would offer to refund the price of the puppy, whether they return the dog or not. The rest is up to them. Eye surgery can be very expensive and it is up to the owner to decide if they wish to spend that amount of money or return the dog to you.

I don't believe any breeder should be responsible for any vetreinary expenses beyond the original price of the puppy.

[Kirty]

After receiving a full veterinary report of the eye condition, I would offer to refund the price of the puppy, whether they return the dog or not. The rest is up to them. Eye surgery can be very expensive and it is up to the owner to decide if they wish to spend that amount of money or return the dog to you.

I don't believe any breeder should be responsible for any vetreinary expenses beyond the original price of the puppy.

Really? So if a breeder sells a puppy with entropian on all four lids, cherry eye, skin allergies, etc the puppy owner should wear those costs??? Sorry, but that is not fair. If someone forks out for a pedigree puppy, they should get something healthy!!

[centitout]

After receiving a full veterinary report of the eye condition, I would offer to refund the price of the puppy, whether they return the dog or not. The rest is up to them. Eye surgery can be very expensive and it is up to the owner to decide if they wish to spend that amount of money or return the dog to you.

I don't believe any breeder should be responsible for any vetreinary expenses beyond the original price of the puppy.

Really? So if a breeder sells a puppy with entropian on all four lids, cherry eye, skin allergies, etc the puppy owner should wear those costs??? Sorry, but that is not fair. If someone forks out for a pedigree puppy, they should get something healthy!!

If they dont want to send the pup back,and get a full refund,then yes,that is fair.If they wish to keep the pup,why should the breeder then have to keep paying for vet bills past the purchase price when they do have the option to send it back and get a refund.

Dogs can get sick,develop problems same as a human can,despite being from healthy parents and i think to refund/replace or in this case pay for op,is fair.

I know someone who has spent thousands on their dog who developed allergies to pretty much everything environmental-he requires weekly injections,sometimes twice a week of the specialist allergy injection,they have chosen to pay for it rather than send the dog back -their choice,they have to wear the cost.

Flame suit firmly in place.

[~Midniara~]

After receiving a full veterinary report of the eye condition, I would offer to refund the price of the puppy, whether they return the dog or not. The rest is up to them. Eye surgery can be very expensive and it is up to the owner to decide if they wish to spend that amount of money or return the dog to you.

I don't believe any breeder should be responsible for any vetreinary expenses beyond the original price of the puppy.

Really? So if a breeder sells a puppy with entropian on all four lids, cherry eye, skin allergies, etc the puppy owner should wear those costs??? Sorry, but that is not fair. If someone forks out for a pedigree puppy, they should get something healthy!!

If they dont want to send the pup back,and get a full refund,then yes,that is fair.If they wish to keep the pup,why should the breeder then have to keep paying for vet bills past the purchase price when they do have the option to send it back and get a refund.

Dogs can get sick,develop problems same as a human can,despite being from healthy parents and i think to refund/replace or in this case pay for op,is fair.

I know someone who has spent thousands on their dog who developed allergies to pretty much everything environmental-he requires weekly injections,sometimes twice a week of the specialist allergy injection,they have chosen to pay for it rather than send the dog back -their choice,they have to wear the cost.

Flame suit firmly in place.

This is what I would do also. But I have my pups fully examined by a vet prior to it leaving here and the pup also comes with 6 weeks health cover. I always encourage my puppy buyers to continue with the health cover.

However, it has not yet been clarified that pup was free of these things at the time that it left the breeder. In this senario IF the pup had any one of the listed conditions and the new owners were unaware of this then the breeder should be held accountalbe for the health costs.

Edited April 9, 2010 by ~Midniara~

[tdierikx]

Is the dog in question a "blue" colour by any chance?

T.

[Staranais]

After receiving a full veterinary report of the eye condition, I would offer to refund the price of the puppy, whether they return the dog or not. The rest is up to them. Eye surgery can be very expensive and it is up to the owner to decide if they wish to spend that amount of money or return the dog to you.

I don't believe any breeder should be responsible for any vetreinary expenses beyond the original price of the puppy.

I think that's fair. The breeder shouldn't have to cover thousands of dollars of surgery that the owners choose to do, but I think giving the purchase price back (or covering all or part of the operation cost up to the purchase price) is fair, if the owners are spending that much money fixing the pup up from a disorder that could be due to the breeding.

I wouldn't send my current pup back if she developed a condition that meant she couldn't work, I'm way too attached. But I'd be peeved if the condition was one known to have genetic component, and the breeder refused all responsibility. If I wanted to play pot luck with health and temperament, I would have gotten a pound puppy.

Luckily, I had a pretty good breeder, so it's not an issue for us.

[centitout]

If the pup has demodex,then yes,they should pay for the treatment for that-thats exactly why i pulled out of importing a bitch when i found out 6 weeks prior to flying that there was a littermate with severe generalised demodex that did not repond to treatment and was euthanased.It was a lot of money to lose-but the health risks were greater ,so i did it.

Some dont think it is hereditary,but from the amount of dogues,staffies etc i have seen with it,i do believe there is a strong genetic component.

[Dogawne]

After receiving a full veterinary report of the eye condition, I would offer to refund the price of the puppy, whether they return the dog or not. The rest is up to them. Eye surgery can be very expensive and it is up to the owner to decide if they wish to spend that amount of money or return the dog to you.

I don't believe any breeder should be responsible for any vetreinary expenses beyond the original price of the puppy.

Really? So if a breeder sells a puppy with entropian on all four lids, cherry eye, skin allergies, etc the puppy owner should wear those costs??? Sorry, but that is not fair. If someone forks out for a pedigree puppy, they should get something healthy!!

If they dont want to send the pup back,and get a full refund,then yes,that is fair.If they wish to keep the pup,why should the breeder then have to keep paying for vet bills past the purchase price when they do have the option to send it back and get a refund.

Dogs can get sick,develop problems same as a human can,despite being from healthy parents and i think to refund/replace or in this case pay for op,is fair.

I know someone who has spent thousands on their dog who developed allergies to pretty much everything environmental-he requires weekly injections,sometimes twice a week of the specialist allergy injection,they have chosen to pay for it rather than send the dog back -their choice,they have to wear the cost.

Flame suit firmly in place.

The entropian is a hereditary? condition, the dermatitis, and the mites are environmental? The toys should not even be on the bill. Make sure the bill os on the vets own letterhead paper, and then get it all itemised. Mites, and fleas well any dog can get that in its enviroment, the dermatitis, well maybe that is environmental and even dietary too.

Are we talking all these conditions picked up in the first week of the pup being taken home? If this all happened within the first week ( eg buyers first vet check and they can say the pup came with these things reasonably then maybe they can argue costs of mites etc, but not if after all this, and it sounds like a 1st check was not done by the buyer.