The Reason Why You Cant

[SparkyTansy]

My understanding is that blue is a dilute of black, and as a dilute can have associated health issues, especially skin problems.

In a nutshell...blues CAN be shown. BUT...and this is a HUGE but!!!

They do not fit the standard because the standard calls specifically for a black nose and genetically, being a dilute (or double recessive as some people know them), they cannot have a black nose.

On blues, a black "looking" nose is called slate. And this still isn't black.

You can show whatever you like. But just don't expect to win much under judges who know the standard.

The skin issues are a result of the dilute genes. They are not part of the breed standard and are "technically" nothing to do with the reason why blues do not do well in the show ring and should not be shown.

There is also the matter that ideally you want good specimens in the show ring and sadly, there are very few very GOOD, and TYPICAL Staffords that come in the blue colouration. Sad but very true. Open to debate of course, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find many true Stafford people who disagree.

I'm guessing you have concluded that the dilute gene being the reason for the skin problems is only referring to the stafford? I am not aware of specific skin issues being linked to the dilute gene in some other breeds - some of which are exclusively dilutes. Could it possibly be that the skin issues are a bigger problem in the blues because the overbreeding of blues has resulted in poor specimens with untested or overlooked issues being bred? and because most of the breeders out there who are doing this are very much breeding for the "rare" blue colour, there is a higher incidence of blues with skin issues?

Please feel free to direct me to the genetic research that links the dilute gene to skin issues - I hadn't heard about this except for in the blue staffy threads.

[Sandra777]

yeah, nah i know, apparently its genetically there in OH's red stafford too, but ive got no idea lol.

Er, no. If your OH's red Stafford had a brindle gene it would be brindle. Reds don't carry the brindle gene.

[Sandra777]

Please feel free to direct me to the genetic research that links the dilute gene to skin issues - I hadn't heard about this except for in the blue staffy threads.

Google blue Dobermanns.

But I do agree with you - the vast majority of skin problems in Staffords are caused by bad breeding practices, be they red blue or brindle. Sadly many vets see a Stafford and rub their hands together with the thought of years of skin issues, they see so many badly bred examples of the breed that they have come to expect it.

[ellz]

I'm guessing you have concluded that the dilute gene being the reason for the skin problems is only referring to the stafford? I am not aware of specific skin issues being linked to the dilute gene in some other breeds - some of which are exclusively dilutes. Could it possibly be that the skin issues are a bigger problem in the blues because the overbreeding of blues has resulted in poor specimens with untested or overlooked issues being bred? and because most of the breeders out there who are doing this are very much breeding for the "rare" blue colour, there is a higher incidence of blues with skin issues?

Please feel free to direct me to the genetic research that links the dilute gene to skin issues - I hadn't heard about this except for in the blue staffy threads.

Google Dilute Gene Alopecia. Lots out there to be read!

But yes the INCREASED appearance of skin issues in the breed is indiscriminate breeding....the scurge of every popular breed unfortunately.

For MY part, I've never experienced skin issues in Staffords since my involvement with the breed commenced in 1997. But then, I also don't have "suspect" bloodlines.

[Dee_al]

def not the best pic at all but the most recent

[ellz]

Yes....agreed....very cute....but I PERSONALLY wouldn't be considering showing him no matter what colour he was. Others would have their own opinions of course.

I daresay he'd be a fabulous cuddler, incredibly funny and a real character.

And that, at the end of the day, is EVERYTHING!

[SparkyTansy]

Thanks Sandra and Ellz - i haven't seen dilute gene alopecia in weimaraners before.... and didn't even think of it when iwas writing my post! i have heard of it though

[asal]

def not the best pic at all but the most recent

hoo hes adorable, champion already.

who needs a ribbon to assure you hes sssooooo cute.

as for the "weak" dilution mind set.

blue is a dilute, acting on black it comes out blue, acting on gold it comes out as, blue nose blue fawn coat, or blue nose blue fawn with blue tipping if it would have been a black tipped sable.

chocolate is a dilute, acting on black it comes out chocolate, acting on gold it comes out either chocolate nose, gold coat, or chocolate nose gold with chocolate tipping if the dog is a sable insteadof the black normally expect.

the frustating bit is approximately 1 in 4 can develop blue gene alopecia.

although yes i know my vet does the hand rubbing when he see's any staffie n shar pei comming in the door regardless of colour skin problems seem rampant in many of them, one kennel in particular that he asks a new puppy buyer with dread in his voice, who bred it. told me almost 90 of theirs end up permanat clients.

sooo skin problems are not just linked to colour with some.

an remember 3 out of the 4 blues will NOT GET BLUE gene alopecia either. so its not all doom and gloom as well ive had 4 and they have had no problems with their skin, they just looked like they had been clipped along the back. no irritation or sores just short there, normal length everywhere else .

my ones were chihuahua's, one guy i know has the cutest of all hes a blue and white particolour, white feet, big white collar and half tail and blaze on his face.

so. loooon white hair and short blue hair. he looks like a mexican hairless except the body is definately chihuahua. n no he has no skin problems just looks weird.

Edited November 8, 2010 by asal

[KatrinaM]

Chocolate is not a dilute. The genes involed in the colors you describe are a bit more complex and there are different ones at work. Could you please tell me where the statistics for occurance of blue gene alopecia are quoted from. It seems to me to be very high.

[WreckitWhippet]

Cute doesn't cut it in the show ring, baby puppies of every breed are cute but that's not reason enough to show them.

He wouldn't get a start at my place, regardless of his colour.

[Gayle.]

He's not a showdog though, and Dee_al said in her first post that she has no intention of showing him. So as a pet he's the best ever....cute as a button.

I have an Aussie Shepherd girl I show, she has a lovely pedigree, she's nicely put together, moves beautifully.......and never wins a cracker. Big deal, not everyone does it for the glory, some do it for the fun day out with our dogs.

[WreckitWhippet]

He's not a showdog though, and Dee_al said in her first post that she has no intention of showing him. So as a pet he's the best ever....cute as a button.

I have an Aussie Shepherd girl I show, she has a lovely pedigree, she's nicely put together, moves beautifully.......and never wins a cracker. Big deal, not everyone does it for the glory, some do it for the fun day out with our dogs.

I do it for the fun day out with the dogs, I always have but that's no excuse to put a second rate dog or bitch into the ring.

The pup is also on the main register and I really have to ask WHY ?

Edited November 8, 2010 by ReadySetGo

[Bisart Dobes]

My understanding is that blue is a dilute of black, and as a dilute can have associated health issues, especially skin problems.

In a nutshell...blues CAN be shown. BUT...and this is a HUGE but!!!

They do not fit the standard because the standard calls specifically for a black nose and genetically, being a dilute (or double recessive as some people know them), they cannot have a black nose.

On blues, a black "looking" nose is called slate. And this still isn't black.

You can show whatever you like. But just don't expect to win much under judges who know the standard.

The skin issues are a result of the dilute genes. They are not part of the breed standard and are "technically" nothing to do with the reason why blues do not do well in the show ring and should not be shown.

There is also the matter that ideally you want good specimens in the show ring and sadly, there are very few very GOOD, and TYPICAL Staffords that come in the blue colouration. Sad but very true. Open to debate of course, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find many true Stafford people who disagree.

I'm guessing you have concluded that the dilute gene being the reason for the skin problems is only referring to the stafford? I am not aware of specific skin issues being linked to the dilute gene in some other breeds - some of which are exclusively dilutes. Could it possibly be that the skin issues are a bigger problem in the blues because the overbreeding of blues has resulted in poor specimens with untested or overlooked issues being bred? and because most of the breeders out there who are doing this are very much breeding for the "rare" blue colour, there is a higher incidence of blues with skin issues?

Please feel free to direct me to the genetic research that links the dilute gene to skin issues - I hadn't heard about this except for in the blue staffy threads.

Dobes have the dilute gene - black dilute is blue and brown dilute is fawn. It is a recessive gene and both parents must carry the gene to produce it. Though I know of one dog who was in a litter with all four colours - so black sire and brown dam both carried the gene - he was a dominant black dog, meaning he produced only black regardless of the bitches colour and hereditary. According to our colour / hereditary charts this is not possible . Love genetics. Alot of the blue and fawn dobes do develop coat problems though again I know of 3 fawns who have stunning coats and are in their later years now - the blues tend to have a rougher and thinner coat. FCI judges will dismiss blue and fawn dogs from the ring even though they are recognised here. Interestingly the blue and fawns tend to have the most correct stunning heads in our breed and produce fantastic progeny - though not sure that I would double up on the alopecia issue I would certainly keep a fawn to breed on with if we produced one (we do have the genes in our lines).

[WreckitWhippet]

My understanding is that blue is a dilute of black, and as a dilute can have associated health issues, especially skin problems.

In a nutshell...blues CAN be shown. BUT...and this is a HUGE but!!!

They do not fit the standard because the standard calls specifically for a black nose and genetically, being a dilute (or double recessive as some people know them), they cannot have a black nose.

On blues, a black "looking" nose is called slate. And this still isn't black.

You can show whatever you like. But just don't expect to win much under judges who know the standard.

The skin issues are a result of the dilute genes. They are not part of the breed standard and are "technically" nothing to do with the reason why blues do not do well in the show ring and should not be shown.

There is also the matter that ideally you want good specimens in the show ring and sadly, there are very few very GOOD, and TYPICAL Staffords that come in the blue colouration. Sad but very true. Open to debate of course, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find many true Stafford people who disagree.

I'm guessing you have concluded that the dilute gene being the reason for the skin problems is only referring to the stafford? I am not aware of specific skin issues being linked to the dilute gene in some other breeds - some of which are exclusively dilutes. Could it possibly be that the skin issues are a bigger problem in the blues because the overbreeding of blues has resulted in poor specimens with untested or overlooked issues being bred? and because most of the breeders out there who are doing this are very much breeding for the "rare" blue colour, there is a higher incidence of blues with skin issues?

Please feel free to direct me to the genetic research that links the dilute gene to skin issues - I hadn't heard about this except for in the blue staffy threads.

Dobes have the dilute gene - black dilute is blue and brown dilute is fawn. It is a recessive gene and both parents must carry the gene to produce it. Though I know of one dog who was in a litter with all four colours - so black sire and brown dam both carried the gene - he was a dominant black dog, meaning he produced only black regardless of the bitches colour and hereditary. According to our colour / hereditary charts this is not possible . Love genetics. Alot of the blue and fawn dobes do develop coat problems though again I know of 3 fawns who have stunning coats and are in their later years now - the blues tend to have a rougher and thinner coat. FCI judges will dismiss blue and fawn dogs from the ring even though they are recognised here. Interestingly the blue and fawns tend to have the most correct stunning heads in our breed and produce fantastic progeny - though not sure that I would double up on the alopecia issue I would certainly keep a fawn to breed on with if we produced one (we do have the genes in our lines).

Sadly that's not the same for the SBT's. They are hands down the worst examples of the breed and are producing more of the same.

I'd prefer the dilutes be referred to in the standard, the same as the livers and the black and tans, but that's a whole other sotry.

[conztruct]

He's not a showdog though, and Dee_al said in her first post that she has no intention of showing him. So as a pet he's the best ever....cute as a button.

I have an Aussie Shepherd girl I show, she has a lovely pedigree, she's nicely put together, moves beautifully.......and never wins a cracker. Big deal, not everyone does it for the glory, some do it for the fun day out with our dogs.

I do it for the fun day out with the dogs, I always have but that's no excuse to put a second rate dog or bitch into the ring.

The pup is also on the main register and I really have to ask WHY ?

Why - probably the breeder's decision I guess.

I was at a show recently and overheard a breeder (it was a loud conversation so I didn't exactly have to strain to hear it) saying to a person who came looking for the staffies that yes, she breeds blue but naturally they cost a lot more than regular staffies....(?!?)

I'm no expert in staffies but from what I saw of this breeders dogs in the ring, I wouldn't buy one from them of any colour and definately not after hearing that comment.

[Sheridan]

One thing I haven't got from the responses is whether a blue staffy is incapable of doing the job for which staffordshire bull terriers were bred.

[WreckitWhippet]

One thing I haven't got from the responses is whether a blue staffy is incapable of doing the job for which staffordshire bull terriers were bred.

I doubt dogs with excess flesh, flat large feet, straight stifles, dumpy front ends, bulldog fronts, large drop ears, narrow little underjaws, with narrow rows of incissors and short inverted canines, over done or over boned would be fit for purpose and go a round.

[Sheridan]

One thing I haven't got from the responses is whether a blue staffy is incapable of doing the job for which staffordshire bull terriers were bred.

I doubt dogs with excess flesh, flat large feet, straight stifles, dumpy front ends, bulldog fronts, large drop ears, narrow little underjaws, with narrow rows of incissors and short inverted canines, over done or over boned would be fit for purpose and go a round.

Are all of the above caused by their colour?

[WreckitWhippet]

One thing I haven't got from the responses is whether a blue staffy is incapable of doing the job for which staffordshire bull terriers were bred.

I doubt dogs with excess flesh, flat large feet, straight stifles, dumpy front ends, bulldog fronts, large drop ears, narrow little underjaws, with narrow rows of incissors and short inverted canines, over done or over boned would be fit for purpose and go a round.

Are all of the above caused by their colour?

You know the answer to that

[Sheridan]

One thing I haven't got from the responses is whether a blue staffy is incapable of doing the job for which staffordshire bull terriers were bred.

I doubt dogs with excess flesh, flat large feet, straight stifles, dumpy front ends, bulldog fronts, large drop ears, narrow little underjaws, with narrow rows of incissors and short inverted canines, over done or over boned would be fit for purpose and go a round.

Are all of the above caused by their colour?

You know the answer to that

Well, I would have thought the above was caused by bad breeding rather than colour genetics but perhaps you know something I don't. If I am correct, then my question as to whether a blue staffy is incapable of doing the job for which staffordshire bull terriers were bred, remains unanswered.