SkySoaringMagpie Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 (edited) Don't many dogs get awful spay coats? Yep, OH has a coated dog with a horrible spay coat. It's not constant across all breeds, or indeed all dogs within a breed. However, there are advantages for some. The point of my post was to show why it matters to fairness in some breeds. Edited January 5, 2011 by SkySoaringMagpie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 I have no problems being beaten by a GOOD dog that meets the standard.As I would not be showing a bitch with dropped coat, it is really a moot point as I would not be up against it when mine are out of coat. It is also good to have a break now and again and do other things with my life. It is a hobby and a sport after all. All sports have "seasons". As one of my bitches comes into season every 4 months.. it is part and parcel of showing. She is a pain to show that way.. but that's life. ETA: Who really cares about the DOL Point Score anyway?? Especially when you hear comments from one judge who was away from their normal turf say "Just wait a minute, while I check the leader board so I know who to put up?" I don't have a coated breed (per se, we have furnishings but not a full coat). My show bitch gets through her seasons without any coat problems. I also don't do pointscore. So the example was not a personal one, it was an example of why the rule helps keep things fair for some exhibitors. I wouldn't show a desexed dog, and I agree with Diva. If I know someone has done it, I expect that they will probably lie and cut corners on other things as well and I deal with them accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bokezu Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 I have no problem of a desexed animal being shown. As someone pointed out earlier in the thread, it is judging the breed standard, not the breeding capability of the animal.How many dogs/bitches out there cannot produce naturally or properly? How many animals have unacceptable hip/elbow scores, or some other major health issue that cannot be detected by observation? How many whole animals do not REALLY conform to the breed standard and still get their CH? (Petrol title or Face judging)? How many have fixed tails, jaws, have dogs with OCD, ED and HD and then go onto breed those animals.. But wait.. They are whole and have the CH? Surely these animals REALLY do not fit into the category of "Showing dogs" to "better the breed". Showing is a SPORT, just like any other Sport. Some are there to only be in it to win it. I know its rules and all that. But really.. If the desexed animal is conforming to the breed standard.. well.. again like what someone else has pointed out.. Is minor when you consider what else goes on in some breeder's back yards. well I'd like to know what does go on in some breeders back yards!! and you can bet they're the same people that lie about their dogs being entire. Not minor at all its against the rules and they should be ashamed of themselves! I just don't get this "its only minor to lie about your dog not being neutered" and thinking its nothing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobie Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 It is unethical however I personally wouldn't care if the dog that my dog was up against was secretly desexed. Quite frankly if they do not intend breeding from the animal I don't think it matters if they are desexed or not. I wish we could show in any class with a desexed animal as I do not intend on breeding from my bitch but enjoy showing so I would prefer her to be desexed but can't if I wish to continue showing her. I wonder if more people would show there dogs if you were allowed to show desexed animals. Who knows it may be a way to get more people interested in showing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bokezu Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 It is unethical however I personally wouldn't care if the dog that my dog was up against was secretly desexed. Quite frankly if they do not intend breeding from the animal I don't think it matters if they are desexed or not. I wish we could show in any class with a desexed animal as I do not intend on breeding from my bitch but enjoy showing so I would prefer her to be desexed but can't if I wish to continue showing her.I wonder if more people would show there dogs if you were allowed to show desexed animals. Who knows it may be a way to get more people interested in showing. but its against the rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paptacular! Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 It is unethical however I personally wouldn't care if the dog that my dog was up against was secretly desexed. Quite frankly if they do not intend breeding from the animal I don't think it matters if they are desexed or not. I wish we could show in any class with a desexed animal as I do not intend on breeding from my bitch but enjoy showing so I would prefer her to be desexed but can't if I wish to continue showing her.I wonder if more people would show there dogs if you were allowed to show desexed animals. Who knows it may be a way to get more people interested in showing. There is now a Neuter class though, where points are awarded. So there's no need for people to be sneaky and show neutered bitches in the regular classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirawee Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 There is now a Neuter class though, where points are awarded.So there's no need for people to be sneaky and show neutered bitches in the regular classes. Where? The only shows that have neuter classes in WA are the ones who have already had them for years - which means maybe 2 or 3 per year. Given it I would be showing the only desexed dog of my breed that means it will take me about 8 years to get my dog's neuter title ;) Saying that, I do not think it is right to break the rules of showing. Yet 90% of competitors do everytime they compete. It is fun walking a black kelpie to the ring on a windy night past other people's trolleys So the question is, why is it so much worse to compete with a desexed bitch than it is to compete with a product covered dog? Both affect coat Coming from a horse background I am another who finds it strange that desexed dogs can't compete against undesexed dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bisart Dobes Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 It is against the rules. End of story - they should be reported and dealt with accordingly. We recently had our 8 yr old desexed and I was very suprised when the vet told me that they did not have to tattoo her ear anymore. It used to be a requirement when a dog was desexed but that has obviously changed. I can just imagine how many people get their bitches desexed and show them just because who would know ?? There is no identifying mark now and it rely's on exhibitors honesty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paptacular! Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 There is now a Neuter class though, where points are awarded.So there's no need for people to be sneaky and show neutered bitches in the regular classes. Where? The only shows that have neuter classes in WA are the ones who have already had them for years - which means maybe 2 or 3 per year. Given it I would be showing the only desexed dog of my breed that means it will take me about 8 years to get my dog's neuter title This is why those who want it need to push for clubs to offer it. Even if the clubs only offer classes 18/18A rather than the different age classes for neuters. There's a whole other thread for neuter class where shows that are offering it in their upcoming schedules are being posted up, and much of the support for the class from some clubs has come from those who want it lobbying the clubs. And those offering it are getting great entries. The NT is a big supporter of neuter class and is offered at pretty much every show here. Even before points were on offer, there were always a few dogs shown in the class, and since the introduction of points, it has grown quite a lot and we almost always now have a full line up for Neuter in Show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobie Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Just wanting to clarify that I would never do it as it is against the rules but I wouldn't care if others did it unless it gave the dog some kind of advantage against my dog which I don't think it would in my breed. Actually I'm not sure how I feel as I think it is dodgy if a big time breeder is doing it but if its a person with one dog thats just showing everynow and again for the fun and has no dodgy intentions I don't care. Is that hypercritical? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bokezu Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Just wanting to clarify that I would never do it as it is against the rules but I wouldn't care if others did it unless it gave the dog some kind of advantage against my dog which I don't think it would in my breed.Actually I'm not sure how I feel as I think it is dodgy if a big time breeder is doing it but if its a person with one dog thats just showing everynow and again for the fun and has no dodgy intentions I don't care. Is that hypercritical? it means you don't mind if people break the rules and cheat just want to add I don't mind showing against any dog........ neutered, spayed, with a false tail, whatever.......... that is not my point, my whole objection to this is they're breaking the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobie Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Just wanting to clarify that I would never do it as it is against the rules but I wouldn't care if others did it unless it gave the dog some kind of advantage against my dog which I don't think it would in my breed.Actually I'm not sure how I feel as I think it is dodgy if a big time breeder is doing it but if its a person with one dog thats just showing everynow and again for the fun and has no dodgy intentions I don't care. Is that hypercritical? it means you don't mind if people break the rules and cheat just want to add I don't mind showing against any dog........ neutered, spayed, with a false tail, whatever.......... that is not my point, my whole objection to this is they're breaking the rules. I guess you are correct. It is cheating and overall I am against cheating as the line has to be drawn somewhere so that things are fair. You got me thinking and I thought that if I found out a dog had beaten my dog and I found out that the owner had cheated in some way I would be pretty upset because cheating is cheating and we all know the rules. I guess when it comes to showing and neutured animals I wish there were more oppurtunities for desexed dogs to be shown as I would prefer to desex my dogs as I do not want to breed. I really love showing but my bitch is a nightmare when she is in season and for months afterwards. Which could be avoided if she was desexed but I do not want to give up showing as it is fun and a great social event for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 just want to add I don't mind showing against any dog........ neutered, spayed, with a false tail, whatever.......... that is not my point, my whole objection to this is they're breaking the rules. FWIW, I do mind. I don't get obsessed with it on a personal level because I don't think my competition should be taking up space in my head, but I think it brings us all down as a breed fancy. I don't want my breed to be one where tails are routinely doctored for example. We should be better than that: more patient with puppy development, better trainers and more respectful of the functional hunting heritage of our dogs. If we want more people and fresh blood in our breeds, we should not create "norms" that are unethical and that will deter good-hearted people from participating and sticking around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuralPug Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 I for one think that neuter classes should be offered at every show. I wouldn't be upset though if desexed dogs were permitted to show against entire dogs. I agree that conformation judging is against the standard, not for breeding ability or even breeeding potential. It can help in choosing what to use for breeding, expecially if you get to see several animals form the same lines. Personally, I believe that if every monorchid or cryptorchid male was desexed then they couldn't be bred from and so eventually they would be born less often. (Yes, I know the bitches carry it too). Right now a fair few of them are tucked away in breeder's backyards or petted out on breeding terms and they are BRED FROM. Better IMO to desex them and have them flying the flag for your bloodlines in the show ring. I think the argument that due to hormones and coat desexed bitches are unfair competition is laughable because plenty of non-breeding exhibitors give their bitches hormones to prevent them coming into season so it is happening anyway. I am also one to believe that neuter classes at every show would encourage new exhibitors (who may later escalate to purchasing entire animals for show). But I can't understand those who accept the use of product without qualm but jump up and down and scream at desexed animals being shown in the entire classes. Both equally break rules and therefore are equally unethical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyValley Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Don't many dogs get awful spay coats? Yep, OH has a coated dog with a horrible spay coat. It's not constant across all breeds, or indeed all dogs within a breed. However, there are advantages for some. The point of my post was to show why it matters to fairness in some breeds. Sorry not aimed at you. More just a general question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 I think the argument that due to hormones and coat desexed bitches are unfair competition is laughable because plenty of non-breeding exhibitors give their bitches hormones to prevent them coming into season so it is happening anyway. Which is just as bad IMO. This argument looks again like the "eh, happens all the time, what are you gonna do?" arguments in this thread. The fact that a lot of people break the rule doesn't make the rule go away. It's still cheating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keshwar Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 but I wouldn't care if others did it unless it gave the dog some kind of advantage against my dog which I don't think it would in my breed. So what happens when you are up against one of these dogs in "in Group" or even in "in Show"? Just because it doesn't affect your breed doesn't mean that it won't have an impact on your show result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystiqview Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 I am sorry. When you know some people have doctored a number of major faults of their animals not only to win but then breed with, and using those dogs with disgusting hip scores in breeding programs, showing a desexed dog IS minor in comparison. It may still be breaking the rules, but on the scale of things, at least the desexed dog is not going to pass on those faults. Mon and crypos are a concern. While a person may "fix" this animal, the condition continues on down the generations. I would rather cull now, than keep running an increased risk further down the track. I recently rehomed a 14 week pup that I could not feel the second nut. I could have waited, but chose rather to cull now. Damn shame as it was a nice pup. One exhibitor told me to send it to Sydney and get it operated on and stitched down... :eek Fixing ears could also be termed cheating. Likewise adjusting coat colour with dye and other products. Grooming is one thing but the lengths that some go to is horrible. At least the person showing the desexed dog is not going to be breeding bad dogs under the glamour. I agree, if you lie about one aspect, you have to wonder about other aspects in a breeder/exhibitors actions. I know I can sleep straight in bed at night. And really, that is what counts. What others do in their back yards is their business and one day their undoing. Not worth worrying about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jr_inoz Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 (edited) I know its rules and all that. But really.. If the desexed animal is conforming to the breed standard.. well.. again like what someone else has pointed out.. Is minor when you consider what else goes on in some breeder's back yards. OK, say you're showing an entire coated bitch and you are regularly up against an exhibitor who is showing a desexed bitch of the same breed in the entire classes. Your bitch has a season and drops coat every 8-9 months putting her out of the ring or out of strong contention for a significant portion of the year. Theirs never has a season and never drops coat, and is beating you in the breed and DOL pointscore because it's out every weekend looking gorgeous. How do you feel about it then? take your point - but remember, the DOL pointscore is hardly equal across the nation. South Aus has one third the shows to go to that the eastern states have. No way an SA dog can win nationally. We have no shows at all in Adelaide in February. We have only 6 shows in total in January. I have no problems being beaten by a GOOD dog that meets the standard.As I would not be showing a bitch with dropped coat, it is really a moot point as I would not be up against it when mine are out of coat. It is also good to have a break now and again and do other things with my life. It is a hobby and a sport after all. All sports have "seasons". As one of my bitches comes into season every 4 months.. it is part and parcel of showing. She is a pain to show that way.. but that's life. ETA: Who really cares about the DOL Point Score anyway?? Especially when you hear comments from one judge who was away from their normal turf say "Just wait a minute, while I check the leader board so I know who to put up?" The judge was joking weren't they????? Otherwise Almost as bad as the people, who when they saw that someone had a judging appointment coming up, suddenly sent that person friend requests on FB... Edited January 5, 2011 by jr_inoz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bokezu Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 just want to add I don't mind showing against any dog........ neutered, spayed, with a false tail, whatever.......... that is not my point, my whole objection to this is they're breaking the rules. FWIW, I do mind. I don't get obsessed with it on a personal level because I don't think my competition should be taking up space in my head, but I think it brings us all down as a breed fancy. I don't want my breed to be one where tails are routinely doctored for example. We should be better than that: more patient with puppy development, better trainers and more respectful of the functional hunting heritage of our dogs. If we want more people and fresh blood in our breeds, we should not create "norms" that are unethical and that will deter good-hearted people from participating and sticking around. absolutely agree.......my point was that I'm not jealous of the people that lie or enhance their dogs to try and win, I don't need to do that, and I think it is sad to think people are that desperate to win a few points. If people go to such lengths to win a ribbon or score some points, they really should have a good look at their dogs and breeding program, and most importantly themselves. Whats wrong with having a beautiful desexed bitch that never quite got enough points before being spayed? is her only worth the title? who are they trying to impress, they can't breed with her, so what does it matter? There are plenty of dogs out there that may have gone on to win their Grand title had they not had to be neutered for one reason or another, its all part of the sport, you just deal with it and move on. And yes, it is sad to think that cheating is becoming the "norm" and voicing disaproval of these things brings replies of "but its no big deal" etc.....not much of an example to the next generation coming through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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