oakway Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Becks, I agree...this being the meat of this situation....Again, I will stress that I am all for mentoring, but that doesn't mean DICTATING.....Oakway....yup....easy...no ego's involved. True, I just try to keep it simple. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 I won't use a stud dog where the stud dog owners dictate where and how the resulting pups are used.As a stud dog owner, I won't let my male be used by people if I don't like how they place their puppies. I help place puppies, but don't dictate who gets what. I can advise how they pups grow, but don't dictate what register they go into. I like to educate versus control. If you don't let people in the front door, they'll go around the back. I've refused to sell a person a pup but they got one by buying a pup from a male I bred. C'est la vie. especially to the bolded bits I also don't let people use him who I know won't be able to handle a pup of his. My dog gets used for performance breeding and while most his pups will do well in the right pet homes I am very careful when the bitch owner wants to keep a pup and I know that they are not capable of handling a high drive dog - when they fail it always seems to be the stud dogs fault not the handlers. So far the bitch owners have known the pups potentials and have placed them according to this. I have no special clauses in my stud contract. With people I know and trust the stud fee is payable on a live viable litter and with people I don't really know stud fee is payable at the time of mating and refundable if there is no litter. I have no clauses on what happens to the pups - that is up to the bitch owner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yarracully Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 How about this question/scenario.....You are a breeder and want to bring in another breed (as many do) because either you are winding down in your first breed or just want to experience something different. You fall in love with the breed of Great Northern Swimming Hounds and approach this breeder after doing some research and finding out that they health test, are big on making sure temperaments are dead on, and microchip and show/trial their GNSH's They are great folks...breed now and then, have lots of space to socialize pups and are fussy on who gets their pups because they want the best for them. You contact this breeder and express interest in getting a pup....give the breeder your history in dogs, which includes breeding and showing multi generations of champion Miniature Longcoated Herding Terriers and tell them that you want to show and trial anything that you might get from a breeder. Lets face it...you are a great home and would promote the kennel of the GNSH's. Your heart is set on this easy care breed and other breeders you have talked to, just don't have all the bits of the puzzle falling into place. But the GNSH breeder drops the bomb saying that because they chose to use Ch. I'm All That N Bag O Chips for the sire of a litter, they can't sell you anything on main register, so you can't show a pup or breed from it. They sympathize with you because they know you bred top quality MLHT's and would love to mentor you in the GNSH's but a contract is a contract. Of the twelve pups born four weeks ago, only one will be allowed to carry the torch for the GNSH breed. The breeder would keep more, but they are only allowed so many dogs according to council regulations, and they can't part with their two young bitches (one of which is the mother of the litter and the other is the first offspring out of her and only 17 months and too young to be bred from) The breeder is torn because there are actually two other really nice pups in the litter. Worthy of being shown and bred from down the track, but a contract is a contract, so they have to be desexed. You hang up the phone, very disappointed as after all your research to find your perfect breed and breeder, you hit a wall and won't be able to pursue it. You may be forced to go to a lesser breeder to fullfill your dream of owning and showing and perhaps breeding GNSH's or just give up and pick another breed. Although the breed names have been changed to protect this innocent, the story is based on truth. BTW...the breeder ended up stopping breeding GNSH's because eventually due to the contract that was signed which also included a clause about not being permitted to breed the offspring to anything produced by a kennel that didn't get along with the kennel of the stud dog owner, suddenly there wasn't much to breed to, due to limited availability of health clear, temperament good pedigree. So it wasn't just one breeder lost...it was two. Just tossing this out for folks to consider. To be honest I would be inclined to think that whoever imposed such a contract is not breeding to better the breed and is really just arrogant, egotistical and self centred. The breed on the whole would be better off without such people . I wouldn't give up on the chosen breed but I would stay well clear of the breeder that imposed such a ridiculous set of conditions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yarracully Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 I am of the view that if you pay a stud fee for the dog, you pay for the health of the bitch and you pay for any emergencies arising during whelping that you are the only one that has any right to decide who gets what pup and what register it goes on. As far as I am concerned if they allow you to use thier stud dog, then they must be OK with the bitch you choose to mate. Once the money changes hands they have no further say in it. However if it is a pick of the litter as payment they may get some input into which register the pup they choose goes on. But thats as far as it goes. If someone tried to impose conditions on what I do with what I breed, I begin to doubt their reason for being involved with the breed. I would look for another stud dog before agreeing to such things. There is always an alternative somewhere. Remembering that a good dog will not always through good pups. As Angelsun said the stud dog is only half the equation. But the bitch can play just as big, and in many cases a bigger, part in teh resultant litter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpha bet Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Firstly I have not stood a dog at stud for years but when I did it was so simple.You paid me a stud fee. You got to use the dog. If she didn't have pups you got a free return. End of story. Never had a problem. Well said - clear and uncomplicated. The only choice really that the stud dog owner should have is to decide is if they consider that the bitch is worthy - if not then no mating - no money...... Just another example of how breeders these days are trying to complicate the whole system and restrict new people from getting into the world of breeding/showing etc. If we dont have new people coming into the industry then where will we be in 10-20 years. Pure Dog Breeders must be realistic otherwise we open the door for the BYB's and Puppy Farms to be the only source for people to get pups in the future and we will see many of the pure breeds disappear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyntervale Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 I won't use a stud dog where the stud dog owners dictate where and how the resulting pups are used.As a stud dog owner, I won't let my male be used by people if I don't like how they place their puppies. I help place puppies, but don't dictate who gets what. I can advise how they pups grow, but don't dictate what register they go into. I like to educate versus control. If you don't let people in the front door, they'll go around the back. I've refused to sell a person a pup but they got one by buying a pup from a male I bred. C'est la vie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkrai Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 I heard the same and been told the same... Pup your keeping is the only one to go on main register... Pick pup plus stud fee Cannot Sell pups or use stud dog if in the same State.. Some of these restrictions are restricting the breed, no newbies no new people showing and once its left to all the oldies and they drop off we loose lines and a breed numbers. Also funny how some breeder dont like competion from their own lines Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifi Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 Also funny how some breeder dont like competion from their own lines For many, competition is not the issue, its the misuse of their lines & less than ideal breeding practices of some. fifi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 To be honest I would be inclined to think that whoever imposed such a contract is not breeding to better the breed and is really just arrogant, egotistical and self centred. The breed on the whole would be better off without such people . I wouldn't give up on the chosen breed but I would stay well clear of the breeder that imposed such a ridiculous set of conditions I agree to an extent, in my breed there are top winners who just flat out will not allow anyone in Australia to use their stuff, end of story. That might be good for their own career in dogs but it's not good for the breed. I think tho', like health problems, part of the problem is dog world generally. Any stuff ups where pet owners put dogs in shelters, where buyers use dogs unwisely in their breeding programs, where problems emerge out of a litter and the finger pointing starts, etc, mean that people become feral about protecting their reputations, and become extremely risk averse. I can think of one breeder in our breed who had problems a few years ago that were well publicised in dog world, now she ties the whole lot down so tight that no dog - as she puts it - takes a shit without her say so. It's hard to fault her for that given the bollocking she got for selling to someone who ended up BYBing. If we want people to be reasonable, we have to be reasonable as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkrai Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 Also funny how some breeder dont like competion from their own lines For many, competition is not the issue, its the misuse of their lines & less than ideal breeding practices of some. fifi nah this was they didnt want competion, they told me straight up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverHaze Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 Sometimes those are the conditions the stud owner will put down, however open and honest discussion with the stud owner may eventuate in a compromise, or a relaxing of the original conditions. It may not, and that's the chance you risk if you decide to use a dog with such conditions. But many people are willing to discuss things if there are valid and compelling reasons for change. Personally any conditions i impose on a stud dog of mine are solely there for the welfare of the puppies produced. Lots of people are saying that its their bitch, they raise the pups etc etc therefore the decision is theirs alone. I feel if i let my dog be used, that i had a part in the creation of those pups, and i should do my utmost to ensure they have the best life possible, whether they end up as a pet or a show dog or a working dog. Usually its enough to just deal with the right people, but if a few conditions will cement the future welfare of these pups then I'm more than willing to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 Firstly I have not stood a dog at stud for years but when I did it was so simple.You paid me a stud fee. You got to use the dog. If she didn't have pups you got a free return. End of story. Never had a problem. Well said - clear and uncomplicated. The only choice really that the stud dog owner should have is to decide is if they consider that the bitch is worthy - if not then no mating - no money...... Just another example of how breeders these days are trying to complicate the whole system and restrict new people from getting into the world of breeding/showing etc. If we dont have new people coming into the industry then where will we be in 10-20 years. Pure Dog Breeders must be realistic otherwise we open the door for the BYB's and Puppy Farms to be the only source for people to get pups in the future and we will see many of the pure breeds disappear. Yep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zensu Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 I recently had an enquiry about using my dog from another breeder in my state. I think this is the more difficult enquiry to deal with! At the end of the day you are helping to produce your competition - like it or not, we are all out there to win. I was happy for my dog to be used, and happy for them to keep whatever they wanted, but asked them not to sell other show puppies within SA - pet puppies fine, other states not fussed. They didnt like the conditions, thats cool, they didnt use my dog, and we are still on good terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 I recently had an enquiry about using my dog from another breeder in my state.I think this is the more difficult enquiry to deal with! At the end of the day you are helping to produce your competition - like it or not, we are all out there to win. I was happy for my dog to be used, and happy for them to keep whatever they wanted, but asked them not to sell other show puppies within SA - pet puppies fine, other states not fussed. They didnt like the conditions, thats cool, they didnt use my dog, and we are still on good terms. I just don't get that attitude at all. If my dog sired something that could beat me and everyone else, I would be delighted. I get far more of a buzz from seeing what my dogs have contributed to the breed that any show win could ever give. I love it even more when new breeders becomes successful with foundation stock from my prefix. For me it is all about doing what is best for the future of the breed, so if my dog is better than anything else they could use, they get to use them, provided I think they are ethical. I am very generous with stud fees either giving a free return for less than two live healthy puppies or charging on a per puppy basis after the first one. I don't have any conditons on my dog's progeny except "not for export", but would be happy to negotiate that if the overseas home was an established show home I approved of. My breed does not really have any imports among the show dogs, we are far more likely to export, so the situation is different to breeds where all the top stock is imported. Most stud owners are pretty gererous with stud fees and only a few have iron clad conditons on using their dogs. Most simply expect the courtesy that the breeder will consult the stud owner on where they are placing main register puppies in case they have any serious objections. Anyone who does the wrong thing and places a puppy somewhere they know the stud owner will object to, is pretty much black banned then by everyone else. It is not about legal contracts but common courtesy to ask if there is anywhere they really don't want the puppies to go and why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelsun Posted February 19, 2011 Author Share Posted February 19, 2011 I won't use a stud dog where the stud dog owners dictate where and how the resulting pups are used.As a stud dog owner, I won't let my male be used by people if I don't like how they place their puppies. You contradict yourself....you say you won't be dictated to when you use a stud dog, but you feel you can tell those that use your stud, what they are to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
becks Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Sorry Zensu, I don't understand that thinking, I love seeing the progeny of my dogs and how they turn out, wouldn't bother me if a son or daughter beat my dogs, afterall it is still family! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkrai Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 I recently had an enquiry about using my dog from another breeder in my state.I think this is the more difficult enquiry to deal with! At the end of the day you are helping to produce your competition - like it or not, we are all out there to win. I was happy for my dog to be used, and happy for them to keep whatever they wanted, but asked them not to sell other show puppies within SA - pet puppies fine, other states not fussed. and thats why breeds are going down the crap hole... People are more worried about competition then bettering the breed, if your worried about competition then your better off getting a breed with no competition but yourself... Im not personally attacking you Zensu but that line I hear quite common with people who are looking for stud dogs and it really bugs me that people put competition before the breed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowanbree Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 In my breed just about every stud I know has conditions on it and I am fine with that. Personally I would rather my boys not be used at stud and have refused most enquiries but definitely would have restrictions on any puppies main registered and who they went to. It is certainly not because I am afraid of competition but rather I don't like the way their dogs live or the way they are placed in homes. I want all of my Grandpups to live a great life not living shut in a crate and dragged round the ring and then pushed out the door to a pet home as soon as they are past their use by date with no regard for home suitabilty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowanbree Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 I recently had an enquiry about using my dog from another breeder in my state.I think this is the more difficult enquiry to deal with! At the end of the day you are helping to produce your competition - like it or not, we are all out there to win. I was happy for my dog to be used, and happy for them to keep whatever they wanted, but asked them not to sell other show puppies within SA - pet puppies fine, other states not fussed. and thats why breeds are going down the crap hole... People are more worried about competition then bettering the breed, if your worried about competition then your better off getting a breed with no competition but yourself... Im not personally attacking you Zensu but that line I hear quite common with people who are looking for stud dogs and it really bugs me that people put competition before the breed... While I am not overly worried about competition I have sometimes wondered how fair it is when you have spent thousand importing and everyone thinks your competition should be able to access those same lines for the price of a stud fee? Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakway Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 I thought we bred for the betterment of the breed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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