"face Judging" In The Show Ring

[poodlefan]

Here we go folks. Our own DOL poll on the issue of face judging.

Best I define the term. By "face judging" I mean judges who will put up any dog shown by a particular exhibitor, regardless of its quality. Or where quality is fairly even, will favour a particular exhibitor's entries over others.

Edited May 9, 2011 by poodlefan

[FHRP]

Face judging wasn't the biggest influence on why I don't (or rarely) show anymore, but it was a factor.

[Sandra777]

Answered No for the last question because I still show, but I think "I still show" could be an option??

Some judges ARE face judges and the faces could win with a 3 legged gas stove on the lead. What sort of pleasure these people get out of winning like this is beyond me - and what "reward" the judge gets for it I never want to know!

Some judges simply lack the knowledge so follow what they've seen others do - whether it's right or wrong.

I have shown a number of big winning dogs over the years and definitely noticed that when I was campaigning the big winner and showed under certain judges, everything I took in the ring won regardless of it's worth in the line up (none were 3 legged gas stoves, but some did beat superior dogs). I don't bother giving these judges an entry a second time because to me winning when you shouldn't is as bad as losing when you shouldn't.

[poodlefan]

Answered No for the last question because I still show, but I think "I still show" could be an option??

Done!

I still think some folk are faces because of the quality of dogs they exhibit and/or their superior handling skills. Not all, but definitely some.

Ooh - good poll feature. If you want to change your vote, you can delete and revote!!

Edited May 9, 2011 by poodlefan

[Diva]

Face judging is not really the fault of the exhibitor, not unless they are exchanging wins with judges because they themselves judge. That is the most heinious form I think, closely followed by putting cronies and friends up. Some others just put up what they think is the safest option - especially if it is a breed or group they don't have any real interest in.

But there is also a quite reasonable theory known as the 'halo effect' - the dog that is handled by the most well-known exhibitor may genuinely be judged more kindly and positively, and the judge won't always realise that it is not the quality of the dog that they are being impressed by. The judge is not dishonest in that scenario, they are just being subconsciously influenced to treat the 'from a well known kennel'/handler looks like a professional'/'heavily advertised' etc, etc, dog more generously - the standing of the exhibitor or kennel rubs off on the exhibit. This is where newbies often lose I think, even when their dog is as well presented on the day.

I still think that most judges do the best they can as honestly as they can, with varying levels of competence. But not all. After several years of showing I have a 'no respect at all' list taped inside my show folder. I add one new judge for about every 10 shows I go to. Eventually that will be enough to get me to give up.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Diva

[conztruct]

I show but I know this could be part of what happens.

I think a lot of face-judging does happen but I'm not sure it's as insidious as people think it is. From my limited experience in the purebred dog world, I can only imagine how difficult it would be to remember all the standards and information required of a judge, so sometimes I think a lot of judges play it safe and put up the successful dogs and exhibitors when they're not sure of what they're doing.

Regardless of why they put someone up, I don't think exhibitors can be blamed. The judges are required to judge a dog on it's merit against the prescribed standard - if they do not do this, then the judge is deficient, not the exhibitor......

I don't think this will ever stop me showing though - I enjoy the social side of it, and while I've seen some absolutely shocking decisions in the ring, winning just isn't important enough to me to make it much of a factor.

[oakway]

The whole problem is that there a lot of jealous people out there and they get up set when when they see other people consistently winning.

They want to blame the judge and talk of these winning persons as faces. The trouble is they forget that the persons they talk about have very good dogs and are very good handlers with excellently groomed dogs.

These persons who talk about faces winning forget that these so called faces started at the bottom and worked their way to the top with a lot of hard work to acquire good winning dogs.

People forget that showing does not finish with the end of the show. It still includes a lot of hard work at home in training and conditioning.

It also includes a lot time and money in going overseas and looking at dogs and watching and learning new training methods.

It also includes purchasing top class dogs to show.

Weather you import or purchase here you can bet somebody has put a lot of time effort and money into producing a top dog.

If you want to want to win, then you too, have to go and give up lots of other activities and pleasures and devote youself to showing and preparing your dog/s for the ring.

[Diva]

The whole problem is that there a lot of jealous people out there and they get up set when when they see other people consistently winning.

I don't really think that is the whole problem, though it would be very convenient to think so.

To paraphrase what another DOLer said in a different thread, to say it's all corrupt is simply not true, but to say there is no problem isn't accurate either. I agree with that.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Diva

[Florise]

The whole problem is that there a lot of jealous people out there and they get up set when when they see other people consistently winning.

They want to blame the judge and talk of these winning persons as faces.

The whole problem is that there a lot of jealous people out there and they get up set when when they see other people consistently winning.

I don't really think that is the whole problem, though it would be very convenient to think so.

To paraphrase what another DOLer said in a diffent thread, to say it's all corrupt is simply not true, but to say it's all honest isn't true either.

Agree wtih Diva. There are many assumptions made by onlookers, maybe some will be correct but I bet if you were to get feedback from the judge, nine out of ten times you would be wrong.

Not saying there is no corruption. I have seen several times, dogs that don't usually win at all, going BOB under the exhibitor's best mate - the judge. Facebook has a lot to answer for I reckon.

[yarracully]

In my opinion for those that don't think face judging occurs consider why in all the magazines (such as national dog etc) why do 99% of advertised dogs show more than just the dog in the photo. If the advert is to promote the dog then only have the dog in the photo. People like to put the handlers into the photos as a handlers face is more likely to trigger recall and a memory easier than just a dog.

If you wish to promote your dog in these publications then by all means do so. But only have the dog in the photo. I personally feel that the different publications should refuse to accept any photos for printing that have more than the dog as the subject.

We have only ever advertised once for a grand title and in that advert there was only the dog shown. The handler in the photo (not one of us- and has never handled any of our dogs in the ring) was deliberatley removed from the photo for the ad.

I would rather my dogs get what they deserve on thier merits as a dog and as such we do not advertise our winnings etc for that very reason. Unlike those that seem to advertise at great expense in every magazine/paper/journal that you pick up.

[Bisart Dobes]

I think it can be an issue. I give most judges an entry and then depending on what they do they will either get another one in the future or they won't. Its interesting talking to friends who are judges and they talk more about the 'corruption' than we do - it is certainly there. There are those in our breed/group who could walk in the ring with a rock on the end of the lead and win best in group / show - and it can be very uninspiring at times.

But then on the other side - I enter under judges who I know like my dogs or the type of dog we have only to turn up to hear other exhibitors whinge because they know I will more than likely win. But I am not a face at all - my dogs do their winning on their merits and as far as I am concerned if I don't enter under the judges who do like my dogs then that would be just plain stupid - if my dogs weren't up to standard or didn't work for me they wouldn't win on the day either.

I think there are enough 'honest' judges out there to keep our sport going though and if you have a good dog, present and show it well it will do its fair share of winning. I titled one of our boys in 6 weekends of showing - included in his title push he won a 23 pt BOB under an international breed specialist & 2 BIG's - he did that - not my face and that means alot more to me than winning falsly.

I am not going to waste my time, effort and money entering under judges that I know will put up 'so&so' regardless of what they show, though - there are better things to do in life than that .

[WreckitWhippet]

You can be a "nobody" with a dog that performs well on a regular basis and still get accused of knowing the judge and the judge being facey.

If the " nobody'" dog wins with someone else on the end of the lead, then of course it's " the judge doesn't know what they are doing "

They can't win...

[Nevafollo]

Its an issue yes but wont stop me showing. I have just learnt to be careful wit who I enter under!

[Dogsfevr]

You can be a "nobody" with a dog that performs well on a regular basis and still get accused of knowing the judge and the judge being facey.

If the " nobody'" dog wins with someone else on the end of the lead, then of course it's " the judge doesn't know what they are doing "

They can't win...

Yep the poor losers have an excuse for every occasion & they have the hide to questions judges ethics

[SkySoaringMagpie]

You can be a "nobody" with a dog that performs well on a regular basis and still get accused of knowing the judge and the judge being facey.

If the " nobody'" dog wins with someone else on the end of the lead, then of course it's " the judge doesn't know what they are doing "

They can't win...

Yep the poor losers have an excuse for every occasion & they have the hide to questions judges ethics

It is true that some people are bad losers and that the peanut gallery is often misinformed and/or incompetent and certainly driven by self interest.

However, are you both saying you feel there is no problem at all with corruption and cronyism in the sport?

Edited to fix quotes

Edited May 9, 2011 by SkySoaringMagpie

[Tenties]

I watched and listened in amazement once as a judge put her dog on the table facing the judge of the day and said with a smile on her face, " i thought i would let you see his beautiful head " the judge ( who was obviously embarressed ) asked if she could please set her dog up and she replied "but dont you want to see his beautiful head " ??? no prizes either for guessing who won

There are alot of breeds out there who have these sort of people owning them, If the owners of these breeds choose not to continue to show because of it , it can and does affect the numbers being shown of their respective breeds, i think this is more true of why numbers are falling but we get told something else all the time.

[Tentapride]

Maybe face judging is here and maybe it isn't but I have seen dogs being awarded groups and in show awards when they are obviously lame. I have seen dogs strung up in the ring so that their front feet never touch the ground winning groups and BIS. How is that fair judging? I have also overhead people discussing the going rates for BIG and BIS awards. Perhaps I misunderstood what was being discussed? I have heard judges rant and rave that they will never award an exhibit owned by the judge that just denied them a challenge or a group award. From my point of view there is a component to showing dogs that is not fair or unbiased but I still choose to show because I don't care if I win or lose. I enjoy the company of my dear friends and I love my dogs and when it comes down to it that is all that matters.

[Ozstar]

I answered yes to all 3.

I have stopped showing since Sep last year due to this.

One of our major shows here last year with international judges was so bad at this it was disgusting.

If you did not have on a certain coloured scarf or an added bling to the end of your lead you did not win.

I am also sick of watching dogs that can barely walk or have shocking mouths/fronts (especially in my breed) win over good sound dogs and not just my own. Most shows are a 3 hour round trip for me and I can not be bothered wasting my time or money anymore.

Leanne

[Turkey Trip]

Like breeders, exhibitors ...and dogs, ;p not all judges are created equal.

You just need to chose your shows to find the most competent and impartial judges with the knowledge and confidence to do their own thing and award using their own opinion.

Will give everyone one or two tries and even if a judge does appear "facey" as it is termed but is also competent, will try them again after a break as we all make mistakes and can learn from them. Some simply operate that way regardless and it is these which one can save a fortune in entries on and also free up some weekends. :D

A win merely as a "face" means little ( and we have all witnessed this happen when the 3-legged stove - or limping exhibit.. wins over better exhibits) but of course sometimes a "face" also does have the BEST exhibit and always, the BEST dog/bitch must win regardless of anything else.

People still show because the majority of our judges are both competent and fair, what I personally deplore though is "follow the leader" judging, - each show should be a new show and each dog should have a fresh and impartial evaluation. It shouldn't matter "who" did "what" with that dog last weekend.. ;)

JMO

[poodlefan]

A win merely as a "face" means little ( and we have all witnessed this happen when the 3-legged stove - or limping exhibit.. wins over better exhibits)

Personally I cant' think of a faster way to send a breeder's lines down the toilet than to put up anything they enter. People probably think they're doing friends a favour - they aren't. Put up shite and it gets bred... there goes the kennel.